QF Long Haul Cabin Crew Surplus???
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Heaven
Posts: 584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fatigue Can lead to Negative Outcomes
Not arming or disarming doors can lead to pax being endangered if an emergency presents itself,otherwise why would you bother?
Door arming/disarming is critical
Twiggs you need to fly more. On second thought I hope you dont ...you would be a potentially dangerous menace
Fatigue costs lives hence the necessity for all transportation companies to have a fatigue protocol in place.
Door arming/disarming is critical
Twiggs you need to fly more. On second thought I hope you dont ...you would be a potentially dangerous menace
Fatigue costs lives hence the necessity for all transportation companies to have a fatigue protocol in place.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: REAL WORLD
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Take Two:
Twiggsy
you should pay attention what is said in a factual matter.
Take Two:
All western developed countries (USA/Europe/etc.) and most developing countries in Asia have FDL for cabin crew (which includes daily/weekly/monthly/yearly limits).
This is not because politicians or regulators like or dislike cabin crew. It came about to provide a reasonable framework for rostering taking fatigue, health and jetlag issues into consideration. It also stops scrupulous operators from exploiting staff too much.
This is based on research done wordwide by a number of industry experts but it is largely ignored in Australia due to a lack of cohesive joint push by the Domestic/international FAAA, to get engaged in policy writing/ educate the public, politicians and regulator. The resident FAAA rep here claims hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spend in the past, which is absolutely nonsense. There has been NO representation in Canberra/ CASA for years.
An example of a survey done
http://medind.nic.in/iab/t04/i1/iabt04i1p10.pdf
When CASA started the regulatory review some 10+ years ago it was to align the regulations with international standards including for the first time ever in Australia legislate the cabin crew environment.
Let’s not forget one of the outstanding successes in lobbying and educating CASA and the politicians is the 1:36 crew to pax ratio. In recent years the current FAAA has not been doing any lobbying in Canberra so a number of exemptions (e.g. 1:50) came in without any serious challenges by the unions. “Now the horse has bolted” it will be very difficult to change a precedent. There are an also a number of clarification on legislative wording which the airlines have exploited to their advantage without the unions having any idea about them.
Twiggsy, if you think that the vast majority of world having FDL for cabin crew is out of step with the real world I would like to propose a new category in the Aviation Hall of Fame
The 2009 Aviation I...t of the Year Award goes to .............
you should pay attention what is said in a factual matter.Take Two:
All western developed countries (USA/Europe/etc.) and most developing countries in Asia have FDL for cabin crew (which includes daily/weekly/monthly/yearly limits).
This is not because politicians or regulators like or dislike cabin crew. It came about to provide a reasonable framework for rostering taking fatigue, health and jetlag issues into consideration. It also stops scrupulous operators from exploiting staff too much.
This is based on research done wordwide by a number of industry experts but it is largely ignored in Australia due to a lack of cohesive joint push by the Domestic/international FAAA, to get engaged in policy writing/ educate the public, politicians and regulator. The resident FAAA rep here claims hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spend in the past, which is absolutely nonsense. There has been NO representation in Canberra/ CASA for years.
An example of a survey done
http://medind.nic.in/iab/t04/i1/iabt04i1p10.pdf
When CASA started the regulatory review some 10+ years ago it was to align the regulations with international standards including for the first time ever in Australia legislate the cabin crew environment.
Let’s not forget one of the outstanding successes in lobbying and educating CASA and the politicians is the 1:36 crew to pax ratio. In recent years the current FAAA has not been doing any lobbying in Canberra so a number of exemptions (e.g. 1:50) came in without any serious challenges by the unions. “Now the horse has bolted” it will be very difficult to change a precedent. There are an also a number of clarification on legislative wording which the airlines have exploited to their advantage without the unions having any idea about them.
Twiggsy,
if you think that the vast majority of world having FDL for cabin crew is out of step with the real world I would like to propose a new category in the Aviation Hall of Fame The 2009 Aviation I...t of the Year Award goes to .............
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You still fail to supply any examples that are going to make our government or regulatory body stand up and take notice.
I am just trying to investigate the statement made by Pegasus747 a little further.
Defcon4, whilst not arming a door may impede an evacuation slightly whilst the door is rearmed, just look at the QF6 evacuation and see that it was a minor hiccup when that had to be done on more than one door.
Point: it's a minor issue, and one that will be overcome when the adrenalin of dealing with an emergency kicks in and overcomes any amount of fatigue.
mrpaxing, I'm afraid that broad statements like
are very dramatic but totally false.
I am just trying to investigate the statement made by Pegasus747 a little further.
Defcon4, whilst not arming a door may impede an evacuation slightly whilst the door is rearmed, just look at the QF6 evacuation and see that it was a minor hiccup when that had to be done on more than one door.
Point: it's a minor issue, and one that will be overcome when the adrenalin of dealing with an emergency kicks in and overcomes any amount of fatigue.
mrpaxing, I'm afraid that broad statements like
are very dramatic but totally false.
Registered User **
Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Ultimate Crew Rest....
Age: 69
Posts: 2,346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Posted by Twiggs...
This is not surprising when you see what Twiggs said about the need for cabin crew rest on Jetstar...
Who in this business would most likely would claim that there is no need for crew rest seats....not crew that's for sure.
Prove it Twiggs...
Proof....if any was needed where Twiggs works...is the evac designed at 90 seconds or less or does Twiggs intend to tell the aviation authorities around the world that crew have time to open a door in disarmed then close it again and reopen in automatic...
Never mind that the passengers behind you are pushing you out the door with no slide as the flames are rapidly approaching....
E.P instructors around the world would be on the floor laughing at the stupidity of that statement....
Fatigue is a recognised condition that is a safety issue whether you are driving a car,truck,working in a factory whatever..
The only person who is trying to tell us that fatigue is not an issue is......Twiggs.
As I said she is truly machiavellian.....
These situations do not put passengers at risk sufficiently to warrant regulation.
Fatigue of cabin crew is an OH&S issue and that's about all.
Fatigue of cabin crew is an OH&S issue and that's about all.
I can't imagine Jet* international would waste valuable pax seats to put crew in when they have perfectly good jump seats to sit in.
are very dramatic but totally false.
whilst not arming a door may impede an evacuation slightly whilst the door is rearmed,
Never mind that the passengers behind you are pushing you out the door with no slide as the flames are rapidly approaching....
E.P instructors around the world would be on the floor laughing at the stupidity of that statement....
Fatigue is a recognised condition that is a safety issue whether you are driving a car,truck,working in a factory whatever..
The only person who is trying to tell us that fatigue is not an issue is......Twiggs.
As I said she is truly machiavellian.....
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Gods Country
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was a nurse in a previous life and everyone who works in any medical field knows how dangerous fatigue can be.
twiggs,I'm all for women expressing themselves but you are on your own with this one girl.
I have seen the result of fatigue in a number of people ending up in hospital.When asked how did it happen the answer so many times was I have done this for years but today I was tired and not thinking.From industrial accidents,recreational mishaps and as the 'stop revive survive' ads tell us car accidents.
In our job it can happen so easily especially at the end of a flight during landing.The flight crew are tired and so are we.Something happens and without checking for fire someone opens a door and the result is fire in the cabin.twiggs,if everyone at that area is dead how can you ascertain that it was not fatigue that killed them.Yes that is dramatic but that is what life and death is when it happens.
I don't know where you work but when someone is saying to me that fatigue or tiredness is not a safety factor it sounds fishy to me.
twiggs,I'm all for women expressing themselves but you are on your own with this one girl.
I have seen the result of fatigue in a number of people ending up in hospital.When asked how did it happen the answer so many times was I have done this for years but today I was tired and not thinking.From industrial accidents,recreational mishaps and as the 'stop revive survive' ads tell us car accidents.
In our job it can happen so easily especially at the end of a flight during landing.The flight crew are tired and so are we.Something happens and without checking for fire someone opens a door and the result is fire in the cabin.twiggs,if everyone at that area is dead how can you ascertain that it was not fatigue that killed them.Yes that is dramatic but that is what life and death is when it happens.
I don't know where you work but when someone is saying to me that fatigue or tiredness is not a safety factor it sounds fishy to me.
Registered User **
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Posted by twiggs
I never thought you had such a good sense of humour twiggs.
ICAO,FAA,CASA,CAA and anyone who has anything to do with flying will be forever in your debt to learn that fatigue is so easily dealt with.No need for crew rest for the pilots or anyone anymore.Brilliant.
Of course it's the fatigue that causes the accident in the first place that is the fly in your ointment but don't let that get in the way of your superb theory.
ROTFL.
the adrenalin of dealing with an emergency kicks in and overcomes any amount of fatigue.
ICAO,FAA,CASA,CAA and anyone who has anything to do with flying will be forever in your debt to learn that fatigue is so easily dealt with.No need for crew rest for the pilots or anyone anymore.Brilliant.
Of course it's the fatigue that causes the accident in the first place that is the fly in your ointment but don't let that get in the way of your superb theory.
ROTFL.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not saying fatigue is not a serious thing.
All I'm saying is there is no record of any incident on an aircraft that resulted in injury to passengers that can be attributed to cabin crew fatigue.
If there is give me one.
That is the only thing that will make a regulatory body implement FDL.
Jelly Shots, please re-read my posts, not the peanut galleries responses that distort my original meaning, which was just elaborating on the same point made by Pegasus747.
Their intent is to try to discredit everything I say just because they believe I am female and work in the office.
I don't, I fly full time and have opinions that quite often the old school don't agree with.
Fatigue of pilots has directly resulted in injury and death, and as a result pilots have FDL.
Once again, fatigue has serious consequences , but for cabin crew, they more commonly have a minor impact on aircraft operation.
It's reality.
All I'm saying is there is no record of any incident on an aircraft that resulted in injury to passengers that can be attributed to cabin crew fatigue.
If there is give me one.
That is the only thing that will make a regulatory body implement FDL.
Jelly Shots, please re-read my posts, not the peanut galleries responses that distort my original meaning, which was just elaborating on the same point made by Pegasus747.
Their intent is to try to discredit everything I say just because they believe I am female and work in the office.
I don't, I fly full time and have opinions that quite often the old school don't agree with.
Fatigue of pilots has directly resulted in injury and death, and as a result pilots have FDL.
Once again, fatigue has serious consequences , but for cabin crew, they more commonly have a minor impact on aircraft operation.
It's reality.
Last edited by twiggs; 26th Aug 2009 at 01:02.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: With Ratty and Mole
Posts: 421
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quantifiable CC Fatigue
Pilots dont evacuate passengers..CC do
There are few recorded incidents where CC have had the opportunity to remove pax from an aircraft during an emergency.Most accidents are so catastrophic in nature that there is enormous loss of life and it is therefore almost impossible to ascertain fatigue as a cause.
Aviation requires proactivity and anticipation of circumstances that may lead to poor decisions made while fatigued.
A poor decision made a flight attendant while fatigued may lead to loss of life.
Prevent fatigue,prevent the poor decision,prevent loss of life.
If a flight attendant involved in an incident is found to have been fatigued then the said flight attendant may be found to be culpable.
If you have done the required fatigue course you will be aware that the self reporting of fatigue is mandatory.
Fatigued?
Dont report it?
Make a mistake?
You will be hung out to dry
It is about prevention
There are few recorded incidents where CC have had the opportunity to remove pax from an aircraft during an emergency.Most accidents are so catastrophic in nature that there is enormous loss of life and it is therefore almost impossible to ascertain fatigue as a cause.
Aviation requires proactivity and anticipation of circumstances that may lead to poor decisions made while fatigued.
A poor decision made a flight attendant while fatigued may lead to loss of life.
Prevent fatigue,prevent the poor decision,prevent loss of life.
If a flight attendant involved in an incident is found to have been fatigued then the said flight attendant may be found to be culpable.
If you have done the required fatigue course you will be aware that the self reporting of fatigue is mandatory.
Fatigued?
Dont report it?
Make a mistake?
You will be hung out to dry
It is about prevention
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Gods Country
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jelly Shots, please re-read my posts,
Even Emirates have no crew rest seats on their 777's.
Jet* Asia definitely do not have them and I can't imagine Jet* international would waste valuable pax seats to put crew in when they have perfectly good jump seats to sit in.
Jet* Asia definitely do not have them and I can't imagine Jet* international would waste valuable pax seats to put crew in when they have perfectly good jump seats to sit in.
Fatigue of cabin crew is an OH&S issue and that's about all.
the adrenalin of dealing with an emergency kicks in and overcomes any amount of fatigue.
I think it unlikely that there has ever been a life threatening incident onboard an aircraft that can be attributed to cabin crew fatigue.
you really only need 1 person to fight a fire.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well Jelly Shots you obviously grabbed the quotes that lowerlobe likes to repeat every five minutes out of context.
Go back and read them in context and use your own mind to judge what they mean, rather than what some people here think they mean because they think I have an agenda that is not to their liking.
There is nothing inaccurate about any of my posts.
They are fact, unfortunately the guys who post here constantly in industrial mode don't want the facts to get out.
Go back and read them in context and use your own mind to judge what they mean, rather than what some people here think they mean because they think I have an agenda that is not to their liking.
There is nothing inaccurate about any of my posts.
They are fact, unfortunately the guys who post here constantly in industrial mode don't want the facts to get out.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Gods Country
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
twiggs,I did as you asked and had a look at some of your posts.I'll repost the first when you obviously don't think there is a need for cabin crew rest.
There is nothing taken out of context except for the name of the person you mention at the start and that does nothing to change the accuracy of the quote.
As I said very fishy here for a crew member to say something like that.
Even Emirates have no crew rest seats on their 777's.
Jet* Asia definitely do not have them and I can't imagine Jet* international would waste valuable pax seats to put crew in when they have perfectly good jump seats to sit in.
Jet* Asia definitely do not have them and I can't imagine Jet* international would waste valuable pax seats to put crew in when they have perfectly good jump seats to sit in.
As I said very fishy here for a crew member to say something like that.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jelly shots, where in that quote does it suggest that I I was stating what already occurs on other premium airlines including QF domestic and then asking the question why would a short haul low cost airline have crew rest seats when those others do not?
Anyway, welcome to the forum Jelly Shots.
Anyway, welcome to the forum Jelly Shots.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Gods Country
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
where in that quote does it suggest that I obviously don't think there is a need for cabin crew rest
I can't imagine Jet* international would waste valuable pax seats to put crew in when they have perfectly good jump seats to sit in
I have shown what type of person you are so there is no point going on.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well Jelly Shots, it seems you may not be new to the forum after all.
You seem to have come in with some pre-conceived ideas.
Maybe you are someone who was banned and now re-incarnated?
No point trying to justify my posts with you.
You seem to have come in with some pre-conceived ideas.
Maybe you are someone who was banned and now re-incarnated?
No point trying to justify my posts with you.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sodor
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thread Drift ad the Usual Outcome
This thread is about CC surpluses not personal catfights.
With QF CC threads it starts of well drifts and is then hi jacked by one of the usual suspects.
While a shortage exists now, at the end of BP 266 there will be a network restructure with frequencies on some routes being reduced and some destinations removed entirely and handed to Jetstar.This will in turn create a greater surplus.
The travel industry is recovering but not where the high yield is.
Interesting times ahead
With QF CC threads it starts of well drifts and is then hi jacked by one of the usual suspects.
While a shortage exists now, at the end of BP 266 there will be a network restructure with frequencies on some routes being reduced and some destinations removed entirely and handed to Jetstar.This will in turn create a greater surplus.
The travel industry is recovering but not where the high yield is.
Interesting times ahead
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The last post is quite correct.... the Qantas international business is in the proverbial dunny and loads might be high but the yield is totally crap.
The burgeoning crew surplus would have in the past resulted in a redundancy program. It is because of the efficacy of the last EBA and the ongoing consultation with the Union that had avoided that unsightly spectre.
We are by no means out of the woods and the flexibility of continuing pragmatism on the part of crew and their union will be the only hope of avoiding redundancy
The burgeoning crew surplus would have in the past resulted in a redundancy program. It is because of the efficacy of the last EBA and the ongoing consultation with the Union that had avoided that unsightly spectre.
We are by no means out of the woods and the flexibility of continuing pragmatism on the part of crew and their union will be the only hope of avoiding redundancy
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: DSS-46 (Canberra Region)
Posts: 733
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No wonder you lot were booted from the CC forums.
The way you're going, you won't be here much longer either!
You seem to continually ignore reminders about this.
Personally, I don't care who the aggressor appears to be. You can always choose to ignore offending posts...
The way you're going, you won't be here much longer either!
You seem to continually ignore reminders about this.
Personally, I don't care who the aggressor appears to be. You can always choose to ignore offending posts...
