Merged: APNG Twin Otter Missing
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I knew Jenny Moala but as a collegue not a friend. What can I say. APNG has a zero tolerance approach to taking weather risks and have never, to my knowledge at least, given any pilot a "negative experience" because of an abort or a weather related decision. I can only conclude she was unexpectedly caught out in the worst possible way.
There is no way known Jenny would have been attempting any of those stupid acts suggested elsewhere in this thread. She would have been attempting a standard VMC approach to Kokoda. Of that I am certain.
Last tuesday I flew over the gap 2 hours before her flight and I can confirm what others have said that there was a layer of stratus on both sides of the ranges.. tops around 9,000 extending north east to the coast and covering Moresby to the south west. God only knows what was below that but obvioulsly it was not good.
The press reports have been almost uniformly appalling and inaccurate. They have reported her uncle as saying she joined APNG earlier this year?!?! Jenny worked with APNG for years just as Simon Wild said. Tho she did only finish her command training in May.
How do newbies actually get their PNG experience these days? When I started it was thru a process of route and strip endorsements. The training pilot would methodically point out low level and escape routes, typical weather patterns, minimum heights for a missed approach etc. Then you were set loose on your 206 or islander. But not before getting the drill on flying to the right in a valley, crossing ridges at an angle, manoeuvring with the horizon obscured by mountains and more... all good stuff. Any blanks in the training were hopefully small and soon plugged by experience.
I dont profess to know anything about what happened last tuesday, but I have a definite dislike of diving down valleys hemmed in by cloud. I got my scare just south of the kudgeru.. taking the valley down to sea level in a loaded 206. The space I had to operate in got smaller and smaller and the aircraft didn't have the climb performance to climb back up the valley. The cloud was on the ground at the bottom but fortunately there was a break... not a nice feeling.. having no options. But that never happened again.. ever. Experience is a wonderful thing.
These days as piston flying has all but died, it seems that experience is passed through osmosis as a newbie will invariable do a longish stint as FO in something like an otter. Is this approach as good as before? dunno, but we are stuck with it I suppose.
Lets hope when the dust settles we can all learn something from this accident and if anyone is eventually held accountable that they truly deserve it.
There is no way known Jenny would have been attempting any of those stupid acts suggested elsewhere in this thread. She would have been attempting a standard VMC approach to Kokoda. Of that I am certain.
Last tuesday I flew over the gap 2 hours before her flight and I can confirm what others have said that there was a layer of stratus on both sides of the ranges.. tops around 9,000 extending north east to the coast and covering Moresby to the south west. God only knows what was below that but obvioulsly it was not good.
The press reports have been almost uniformly appalling and inaccurate. They have reported her uncle as saying she joined APNG earlier this year?!?! Jenny worked with APNG for years just as Simon Wild said. Tho she did only finish her command training in May.
How do newbies actually get their PNG experience these days? When I started it was thru a process of route and strip endorsements. The training pilot would methodically point out low level and escape routes, typical weather patterns, minimum heights for a missed approach etc. Then you were set loose on your 206 or islander. But not before getting the drill on flying to the right in a valley, crossing ridges at an angle, manoeuvring with the horizon obscured by mountains and more... all good stuff. Any blanks in the training were hopefully small and soon plugged by experience.
I dont profess to know anything about what happened last tuesday, but I have a definite dislike of diving down valleys hemmed in by cloud. I got my scare just south of the kudgeru.. taking the valley down to sea level in a loaded 206. The space I had to operate in got smaller and smaller and the aircraft didn't have the climb performance to climb back up the valley. The cloud was on the ground at the bottom but fortunately there was a break... not a nice feeling.. having no options. But that never happened again.. ever. Experience is a wonderful thing.
These days as piston flying has all but died, it seems that experience is passed through osmosis as a newbie will invariable do a longish stint as FO in something like an otter. Is this approach as good as before? dunno, but we are stuck with it I suppose.
Lets hope when the dust settles we can all learn something from this accident and if anyone is eventually held accountable that they truly deserve it.
Normally, once you reach a certain level of experience you are pretty safe. Not in PNG though. Someone with thousands of hours and years in the country can go to work and on that particular day the holes in the swiss cheese line up resulting in a fatal accident.
There are so many traps waiting, from false gaps in the ranges to temperature and dew point suddenly closing. In less than three months up there I remember two bad accidents. Looking for a crashed aircraft and the subsequent recovery of the bodies isn't something I ever want to repeat.
Years on, and now surrounded by more safety features than I could ever have imagined before, I still feel for those aviators risking their lives in the highlands.
There are so many traps waiting, from false gaps in the ranges to temperature and dew point suddenly closing. In less than three months up there I remember two bad accidents. Looking for a crashed aircraft and the subsequent recovery of the bodies isn't something I ever want to repeat.
Years on, and now surrounded by more safety features than I could ever have imagined before, I still feel for those aviators risking their lives in the highlands.
Grumpy
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Tinpis - 
I had to go back and locate AMOSdigit to see what prompted your incisive comment.
Talk about laid back darwinian.
Reminds me of 'Bill the Ringer'.
I had to go back and locate AMOSdigit to see what prompted your incisive comment.Talk about laid back darwinian.
Reminds me of 'Bill the Ringer'.
I just want to show what some places are like and what is expected of the crews.
This place is Noqui, Northern Angola, one way strip,terrain not as big but very similar to PNG
[IMG]
[/IMG]
Noqui Dry Season, looking at the hill at the end of the runway
[IMG]
[/IMG]
Noqui Wet Season, who stole the mountain????
[IMG]
[/IMG]
rapidly changing weather, few options and terrain..... all makes for a bad day.
This place is Noqui, Northern Angola, one way strip,terrain not as big but very similar to PNG
[IMG]
[/IMG]Noqui Dry Season, looking at the hill at the end of the runway
[IMG]
[/IMG]Noqui Wet Season, who stole the mountain????
[IMG]
[/IMG]rapidly changing weather, few options and terrain..... all makes for a bad day.
Silly Old Git
poteroo
It does too, bum bitey seat buttons on T/O?
Last pic looks like Simbai in the Adelbert Ranges, Madang District ??
Last edited by tinpis; 15th Aug 2009 at 09:16.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Someone with thousands of hours and years in the country can go to work and on that particular day the holes in the swiss cheese line up resulting in a fatal accident.
RIP RR.
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Same Gap Diff Prob West of Mendi
Hey Wiley I remem gam fam With all that vert scenery not always cloud related probs Out of Mendi way back when bound Margarima. Unusual for such low lats BIG westerley flow.
Equip was C206 full of kiaps etc. When in the gap instead of resembling a U at about 20 deg down elevation VSI perpendicular and gap looked like a wine glass from the stem.
Stall warns giong ape and failry steep turn 2 get out. Missed yr red orchid. and gen consensis of all was back 2 the MENDI val club for a few SPs.
Unforgiving country. PS if that was Simbai its almost a metropolis.
Equip was C206 full of kiaps etc. When in the gap instead of resembling a U at about 20 deg down elevation VSI perpendicular and gap looked like a wine glass from the stem.
Stall warns giong ape and failry steep turn 2 get out. Missed yr red orchid. and gen consensis of all was back 2 the MENDI val club for a few SPs.
Unforgiving country. PS if that was Simbai its almost a metropolis.
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I suppose we should all be grateful that the rescue operation has been pulled off successfully and there were no further incidents.
There have been tragic incidents in the past where other lives were lost in the rescue operations. I remember during the search for the baron that went down in the Tomba Gap,(early 80's), one of the searchers got out to clean the window she would be looking out of and walked into the turning prop of the BN2 on the tarmac in Hagen, killing her instantly. very,very sad!
Back to the current issue, any updates from the crash site? Any good links with photographs? Have all the bodies been recovered?
There have been tragic incidents in the past where other lives were lost in the rescue operations. I remember during the search for the baron that went down in the Tomba Gap,(early 80's), one of the searchers got out to clean the window she would be looking out of and walked into the turning prop of the BN2 on the tarmac in Hagen, killing her instantly. very,very sad!
Back to the current issue, any updates from the crash site? Any good links with photographs? Have all the bodies been recovered?
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Would it be fair to say that the aim of the task is to bring the deceased home to their loved ones so that the grieving process can be completed?
I know personally the feeling to be able to help in the aftermath of a tragedy. To help those in need in giving by oneself.........
Does it really matter who completes the job though? The task is not for us or our egos - it is for the families who have lost their loved ones.
Pissing into wind about aircraft "colours" (just like ****** gang dudes) helps no body. Think of the big picture and put your egos aside - like I remember we all used to do when flying in PNG. PNG flying I remember was a team environment where everyone helped everyone and no one was out to be the hero.
The grieving families come first and foremost.
I know personally the feeling to be able to help in the aftermath of a tragedy. To help those in need in giving by oneself.........
Does it really matter who completes the job though? The task is not for us or our egos - it is for the families who have lost their loved ones.
Pissing into wind about aircraft "colours" (just like ****** gang dudes) helps no body. Think of the big picture and put your egos aside - like I remember we all used to do when flying in PNG. PNG flying I remember was a team environment where everyone helped everyone and no one was out to be the hero.
The grieving families come first and foremost.
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Well said Chuck.
There always seems to be a lack of appreciation of civilian input to military operations. I put it down to the brainwashing and "Top Gun" attitude drilled in at officers school. And they get to play with the latest expensive toys. Remember years ago when the chief engineer and self hitched a ride back to Santo on a N.Z. Hercules on cyclone relief. They had landed there on the way up, and were taking a load of food back, and the High Comm got us a lift to pick up a plane. Came up the front as we crossed the coast to ask and watch the landing. The N.Z. Flight Lt. and American A.F. Capt. had changed places on this leg. They went past the town, headed out S.E., did a turn, came back, slowed up, flaps down, gear down, went down. (good weather). At about 600', I said on the intercom "are we going to land on this strip?" "yes" they said. "well as far as I am aware" I said, "this is an old coral WW2 bomber strip with a fence across it and they run cattle, the main airport is on the eastern side of the town". We got a little lower, they put on power, climbed up, went over to the east, and we landed at Pekoa. Never said a word to me or the chief engineer. Not a word of thanks, a joke, or anything. To embarassed I guess... Telling it now won't hurt anyones career, it was a quarter century ago. ANYONE can make a mistake or forget, or have a bad day, no matter what they fly, what nationality they are, or how good they think they are... Just remember Carters hostage rescue fiasco in the desert...
There always seems to be a lack of appreciation of civilian input to military operations. I put it down to the brainwashing and "Top Gun" attitude drilled in at officers school. And they get to play with the latest expensive toys. Remember years ago when the chief engineer and self hitched a ride back to Santo on a N.Z. Hercules on cyclone relief. They had landed there on the way up, and were taking a load of food back, and the High Comm got us a lift to pick up a plane. Came up the front as we crossed the coast to ask and watch the landing. The N.Z. Flight Lt. and American A.F. Capt. had changed places on this leg. They went past the town, headed out S.E., did a turn, came back, slowed up, flaps down, gear down, went down. (good weather). At about 600', I said on the intercom "are we going to land on this strip?" "yes" they said. "well as far as I am aware" I said, "this is an old coral WW2 bomber strip with a fence across it and they run cattle, the main airport is on the eastern side of the town". We got a little lower, they put on power, climbed up, went over to the east, and we landed at Pekoa. Never said a word to me or the chief engineer. Not a word of thanks, a joke, or anything. To embarassed I guess... Telling it now won't hurt anyones career, it was a quarter century ago. ANYONE can make a mistake or forget, or have a bad day, no matter what they fly, what nationality they are, or how good they think they are... Just remember Carters hostage rescue fiasco in the desert...
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Have been reading PNG threads for years and this activates me to contribute. Those with experience and common sense stand out. My first year in TPNG was in 1970 which Jim Sinclair reminded us in Balus was a notable year for fatal crashes. In September I had lunch at Kokoda where I was based with Water Resource passengers waiying for their Aztec from Moresby. Two hours later I was airborne in normal afternoon wx looking for their wreckage. During this search I was directed to a shiny flash observed on the normally cloud enveloped Mt Scratchley. It turned out to be a US Navy C47 missing since 1944 from memory and had not been seen before because it was at 12,000 ft.
I very much identify with flying under limited VFR conditions in the mountains as most commercial helicopters back in the 70's were only equipped with engine instruments and a magnetic compass. A Bell 47 with its limited power was a wonderful training ground for later operations in larger machines which still lacked artificial horizons. As a helicopter pilot I envied the fuel endurance of fixed wing but will admit to a preference for the emergency landing options of a helicopter should the mist fully clag in
I very much identify with flying under limited VFR conditions in the mountains as most commercial helicopters back in the 70's were only equipped with engine instruments and a magnetic compass. A Bell 47 with its limited power was a wonderful training ground for later operations in larger machines which still lacked artificial horizons. As a helicopter pilot I envied the fuel endurance of fixed wing but will admit to a preference for the emergency landing options of a helicopter should the mist fully clag in
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strapped
Agree with you completely. This is really a different type of flying than most of us have ever or will ever experience. Question, not to be flip, but is there ever strick VFR conditions in PNG?
Agree with you completely. This is really a different type of flying than most of us have ever or will ever experience. Question, not to be flip, but is there ever strick VFR conditions in PNG?
Silly Old Git
I wouldn't bet on it wes_wall
May start out good but you can bet you will have to "bend" the rules somewhere during the day.
In my day of compass and watch no nav-aids, the general consensus was that if you didnt scare yourself silly at least once a week, you weren't trying hard enough.
This dude KNOWS where he is going
Imagine if you didnt?
May start out good but you can bet you will have to "bend" the rules somewhere during the day.
In my day of compass and watch no nav-aids, the general consensus was that if you didnt scare yourself silly at least once a week, you weren't trying hard enough.
This dude KNOWS where he is going
Imagine if you didnt?
Great video Tinny.
Here are a couple more (not mine unfortunately).
Not in PNG, but very similar YouTube - Flying to Folopa
YouTube - MAF - landing at Kafa, PNG
BTW, where was that thread on how to embed a video?
Here are a couple more (not mine unfortunately).
Not in PNG, but very similar YouTube - Flying to Folopa
YouTube - MAF - landing at Kafa, PNG
BTW, where was that thread on how to embed a video?
Foreign Correspondent - ABC1 Television Guide
ABC running a story on PNG aviation made PRIOR to this.
ABC running a story on PNG aviation made PRIOR to this.
