Merged: APNG Twin Otter Missing

[celco]

Chimbu Chuck

I must agree and with the addition of the secound crew member the gradient was usually that steep it created even more work for the captain. It actually decreased safety and most of the CFIT accidents leading up to this point probably would have included two crew rather than one. It wasn't much fun trying to find Garoka or Hagen on a sh!tty morning, seperating yourself from other traffic and then trying to keep the dude in the right seat calm.

[Trojan1981]

Slight thread drift I know, but have services into Kokoda recommenced yet? The news gave the impession that they had all been stopped during the recovery process.

[blackhand]

have services into Kokoda recommenced yet?

Yes, airspace was opened a few days ago.
All bodies recovered.
Site has been released by ATBS.

[teresa green]

In my era (sigh) 1968 to 1974, it was only one pilot twotter, two pilots DC3, most of us thought nothing of it, though PNG was a wild and woolly place then and it is not just the terain I am talking about. It was not uncommon for pilots to wear sidearms, and I ALWAYS stood on the wing so I could not get "jumped" when loading or unloading, because they would love to nick that gun. It was a interesting era and brought some adventures for us then young blokes. The runways were often in places that your average line pilot today would totally freak out at, and many were littered with unsuccessful attempts to take off or land, especially warbirds from both sides, a constant reminder that if you stuffed up........ I was then young, dumb and happy, and enjoyed it very much, but scared the sh$t out of myself on more than one occasion, (as we all did) but amazingly enough only lost a couple of pilots and one aircraft in the time I was there. (One of which I referred to earlier). Those in BNE who would like to meet some of the pilots who flew in those times, there is a reunion at New Farm in Oct, (I don't have the details as am packing, the wife has decreed we are moving) but Chimbu probably does, and will post accordingly, if not, I will when can get my head around this mess. The stories that came out of PNG should be recorded, as this was flying that will never happen again, and I am thinking of contacting Peter Fitzsimmons or pehaps Capt Geoff Litchfield who was always good at wielding a pen, to get it down on paper, before we all start going to that aircrew bar in the sky. (hopefully).

[Exaviator]

Hi TG,

The 2009 TAA/Ansett PNG Reunion is being held on the 17th October. Eligibility is ALL TAA/Ansett PNG based staff from 1960 - 1973 and their spouses/partners or friend. Cost is $65 per head. I can supply a contact email for registration.

Hope to see you there!

Cheers Exaviator

[sid Otoole]

To Jim

Knew him very very well he was very very experienced what a sad loss

[sid Otoole]

training missions in png

Add efogi to your list !!!!!

[wes_wall]

try that wes

thanks much, appreciate the link.

[Kunai]

Got a video on youtube of flying down the gap with an orbit of Isurava for anyone who is interested.

YouTube - Kokoda Gap

[tipsy2]

Thanks Kunai for the reminder to get my super8 films transfered to digital.

Was a great place to fly.

tipsy

[Captain Nomad]

...and that was on a nice morning. Now imagine doing it in poor wx with cloud and rain obscuring a lot of what you can see in that video!

[Docomaker]

Documentary on aviation in PNG

Helllo All,

I am researching a documentary film on the challenges of flying in PNG and aviation safety, especially in the wake of the tragic events of 11 August 2009. Should you have information that could shed more light on the subject and wish to share it, please send me a private message.

[Pinky the pilot]

Docomaker; I take your request at face value by giving you this advice;
Unless you are prepared to post under your real name and give full contact details, I suspect that most, if not all ex and current PNG Pilots will treat you as nothing more than a journo on a muck raking expedition.

Speaking for myself only, until you meet that criteria I would'nt even give you the time of day.

[Jabawocky]

Doco

I second the above post. I was born in PNG, my parents flew around a fair bit in the 60's and that is as much a link as I can claim, but many of us have some passion ranging from mine right up to the likes of, Tinpis, Chimbu Chuckles, Chimbu Warrior etc etc.

I would suggest that you should seek out a few of the known experts and be prepared to pay for their knowledge.

If there was a topic that could be misrepresented any more than this one, i would be surprised.

I think many here would love to see a high quality and factual story told, unfortunately the media in all its forms has an extremely poor record at getting the facts anywhere near correct, so you could actually take this opportunity to make a name for yourself and gain a great following of support.

Good Luck!

[the wizard of auz]

I mirror Pinky's post............... Accept I don't own a watch.

[tipsy2]

Preliminary Accident Report here (ATSB/AIC)

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/762563/...ual_report.pdf

tipsy

[flyon-thewall]

APNG in emergency descent.

Friday 25th Sept CG 100 (balus 100) POM-CNS suffered depressuirsation & carried out an emergence descent.....could have something to do with schedulled maintanence being re-schedulled,being re-schedulled,being re-schedulled no spare aircraft,commercially driven by OPS dept.
In order to chase ALL the contract mining work a company needs to have reliable aircraft...not to mention a spare 1 or 2.
Must be great to have switched on management at the helm.

[psycho joe]

I was never a supporter of 2 pilot ops in Twotters in PNG because,

1/. The likelihood of proper 2 crew SOPs being implemented was always going to be problematic when none of the trainers had an airline background,

2/. When ****s are trumps in PNG you don't have time to discuss it

3/. A new FO taught to 'speak up' when 'uncomfortable' would go hoarse in PNG

4/. After several months of their 'concerns' being essentially ignored they would tend to just sit there and accept whatever happened next.

The accident record since the implementation of 2 crew ops seems to indicate no safety benefit has been realised.

Its all moot anyway - if SP command experience was to become a non negotiable Twotter command requirement you'd park most of the Twotters in PNG.

Sorry CC but I have to disagree.

A few years ago now I flew for a PNG company, starting with around 2500 hrs of single pilot time flown in oz. After a training regime that quite frankly would put most regional (and some jet) airlines in Australia to shame I was checked to the right seat of an Otter. After 9 or 10 months of learning on the job I earned a spot in the left.

1/. The likelihood of proper 2 crew SOPs being implemented was always going to be problematic when none of the trainers had an airline background,

We took the multi crew thing very seriously. The company was part of the Air Niugini cadetship program. We were trained by people with muli crew experience and occasionally flew the line with ex jet airline pilots.

2/. When ****s are trumps in PNG you don't have time to discuss it

Too true. We thoroughly briefed everything beforehand. The pm knew exactly what the PF was thinking right down to expected visual cues and terrain escape routes. The resulting cockpit environment at times was not unlike a close knit crew in a rally car. You may well scoff, but in all the low level flying in & out of valleys in marginal weather that we did I never felt uncomfortable. Nor did we ever mis-identify a valley, take a wrong turn, mis-judge rising terrain etc etc. You can imagine my surprise when moving on to a large airline back in oz. I found that 'proper' multi crew ostensibly consists of the PF flying & the PM operating the radios em tasol.

3/. A new FO taught to 'speak up' when 'uncomfortable' would go hoarse in PNG.

A new FO would only be uncomfortable if they had no idea what was normal and what the other pilot was intending to do. That comes down to training & briefing.

4/. After several months of their 'concerns' being essentially ignored they would tend to just sit there and accept whatever happened next.

Just as this would not be considered acceptable where you work. In the company that I worked the multi crew thing was taken seriously, ignoring a crew members concerns would have resulted in swift and severe actions from a higher authority.

IMHO the argument for extensive single pilot time in PNG doesn't fly. It's a bit like arguing that a Boeing/Airbus command would be safer if given to pilots with single pilot jet time.

[Chimbu chuckles]

PJ that is great - when I was SPing in PNG and there was the occasional need for 2 crew the result was a joke - I am very glad to hear that its done properly now.

A few years ago now I flew for a PNG company, starting with around 2500 hrs of single pilot time flown in oz. After a training regime that quite frankly would put most regional (and some jet) airlines in Australia to shame

The resulting cockpit environment at times was not unlike a close knit crew in a rally car. You may well scoff, but in all the low level flying in & out of valleys in marginal weather that we did I never felt uncomfortable. Nor did we ever mis-identify a valley, take a wrong turn, mis-judge rising terrain etc etc. You can imagine my surprise when moving on to a large airline back in oz. I found that 'proper' multi crew ostensibly consists of the PF flying & the PM operating the radios em tasol.

Great analogy.

That does not surprise me at all. The quality of the (SP) training we got in Talair/Airlink etc was excellent -vastly superior to what was happening in GA in Australia then or now - PX was similarly excellent in CRM/2 crew ops, world class in fact - those of us who went out to the world after PX all feel the same way - we have never had training since that is the equal of that we received at PX, particularly CRM.

2 crew ops in Twotters was just starting to be mooted when I left GA and joined PX thus I have no experience of 2 crew bush ops other than in the Dash 7. I remember discussing this issue with mates after we had joined PX and 2 crew Twotter ops became a reality - while non of us could work out what a co-pilot would do in a Twotter - I think the consensus was that PX CRM/SOPs would be needed and that just was not going to happen in PNG GA at that time.

I am very happy that changed.

Having said that I am still VERY HAPPY that all my time in Twotters/Bandits was SP. It was FUN

[Diatryma]

Inquiry in doubt as Kokoda crash chief axed

Inquiry in doubt as Kokoda crash chief axed | The Australian


Hmmmm......