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Merged: APNG Twin Otter Missing

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Merged: APNG Twin Otter Missing

Old 18th Aug 2009, 15:16
  #181 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: BNE
Posts: 325
While I respect that flying in PNG is remarkably different from anywhere else in our region (lived there for some time), is it really necessary to put down or dismiss anyone without 'PNG time' raising what might seem logical questions elsewhere?

Guys, its a rough place, sure. But really, get over yourselves. Flying a plane is flying a plane, and risk is still risk.

Safety and Risk can co-exist. It certainly does NOT in PNG right now. And those 'old hand' top guns are doing nothing for the positive cause.

If you're picking apart journalistic accuracy, you are REALLY missing the point.
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 19:14
  #182 (permalink)  

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Personally I don't think putting people 'without PNG time' down is needed either and I hope I don't do that - what I do get worked up about is people with no direct experience getting judgmental.

Ask any question and I will attempt to answer it honestly but when people start judging what PNG based pilots do or don't do I get a little antsy.

For me PNG is a VERY fond memory of the first nearly 14 years of my career - I have great respect for the guys and girls doing it now and ENORMOUS respect for the very small number of my mates, expat and local, from those years who still fly up there - some in Twin Otters, some in DHC8s, some in F100s and some in 767s.

I watched that ABC program tonight and was a little shocked at just how badly run down DCA is now - in my time it was staffed and functioned well - we drank at the Aeroclub Bar with the DCA examiners and investigators and socialized with them more generally. Sorted most stuff out over a million beers. The Senior Examiner of Airmen of DCA was my next door neighbor in the Talair compound. My then 3 yr old daughter would wander next door at sparrows to visit with Allan and Ruth Craigie (Uncle Alen and Aunty Root ) for vegemite toast. Allan, and his staff, understood us and there was real mutual respect - particularly when one of us went whistling through the compound in a Bandit and he just smiled and sipped on his beer

Talair was probably 90% of PNG domestic operations and was a HIGHLY professional operation with GREAT C&Ting, mostly excellent maintenance and the average pilot was very experienced. Yes there were accidents in those days (LOTS) but there was a LOT more aviation happening in those days and LOTS more in Piston singles and twins. I have no way of proving it but I suspect the safety record was better then than now even though the raw numbers suggest otherwise.

When Talair started getting out of pistons and concentrating on an all turbine operation with Otters and Bandits it did so by selling off bases like Lae, Wau, Popondetta, Rabaul, Hoskins etc, holus bolus. Many were bought by Talair staff - that is how North Coast and Airlink came into being. In the early 90s these operations were staffed in senior positions by ex Talair pilots and when Talair shut down in 92 the rest of us went to these other operators. That is how MBA ramped up to fill the void.

I went to Airlink in Rabaul and other than the Neo Nazi uniform it was exactly like still being in Talair - VERY high standards of experience and maintenance and, under Col Bubner et al (the owners) a no expense spared operation that made them a lot of money - just a blissful life.

Starting in 1994 airlines started recruiting again after the hiatus post 89. Within a year PX (and others) had stripped the guts of the experience out of PNG GA/3rd level airlines. Within 3 they, and others, had finished that process except for a VERY small cadre of ex Talair pilots/MBA pilots who were just too old/didn't want to or who couldn't pass the 4 days of BS testing.

Take a look at that list of accidents link above and look at the Airlink crashes - they all happened post 94 except a non fatal landing bingle in an Islander at Namatanai. From late 94/early 95 guys were joining Airlink on an Islander and progressing through the left seats of 402/404/Twotter to a Bandit in a year or less. Just before I went to PX I was doing 40 stick hours a week TRAINING.

Unheard of rates of promotion. And some were not as good as they thought they were. All of a sudden we were all in PX as Dash 7/F28 FOs and we were watching Bandits smack into ridge lines etc. It was very sad.

I had a million beers with Col Bubner in Madang on an overnight just before I left PNG in 1999. He paid me and my work mates a great compliment when he said words to the effect of "I had no idea how lucky I was to have you guys until you were all gone".

The reality was virtually every one of us who left PNG GA in 94/95/96 had been in GA in PNG for 8-10+ years. Mostly because the 89 dispute stopped normal industry progression dead in its tracks when 1700 odd guys flooded out to the world and the Oz domestics did more with less crews. Col was a good guy - didn't begrudge us our careers (no PNG operators ever did) but it was sad watching what had been an example of GA at its VERY BEST slide through Col's fingers. Airlink died (mostly) because inexperienced (or stupid) pilots were crashing it's aircraft.

The last 10+ years - well we have all seen the recent pilot shortage - it wasn't kind to any PNG operator, even PX.

MBA/APNG is, I believe, a good operator with high standards - I know Simon Wild and while we have had our differences of opinion in the long past I believe he runs a good operation. It was a steep learning curve to go from a small Charter Operation with a motley handful of aircraft to, not quite but essentially, Talair's replacement back in 1992/3. It would not be overstating it to suggest there are probably 10-12 guys there NOW who have between 22 and 35+ years experience in PNG (mostly ex Talair) but that there would have been enormous numbers of guys, and the odd girl, passing through for a year or 3 and then off to wherever in this last 10 years.

All that aside to suggest this young lady should not have been on that route is a bit silly. She'd have flown it MANY times in the RHS. Kokoda is a big flat strip in a fairly big wide valley - DC3s used to operate in there between the 50s and 70s.

I suspect the underlying cause of this tragedy might be VERY simple.

The first time I went through the Kokoda Gap was on a gin clear, calm morning and I went through on the trees - because its fun and you learn what it might be like in marginal weather.

After that it didn't take much weather in the Gap to have me back tracking and climbing to LSA. It also drove home the fact that if I was silly enough to be suckered through that Gap and couldn't proceed visually the only option was aim down the guts of the creek and climb on that heading.

In my day we flew everything single pilot and we never got in trouble for 'low flying' - even on the very rare occasion we were reported by someone.

I wonder if that is still the case?

I firmly believe a big part of the reason why most pilots survive PNG (lucky near misses aside) is this level of professional curiosity.

What will I do if?

In my experience you don't hit as hard as this aircraft did unless you're descending down a valley, picking up speed, and then try and turn around.

Maybe some young person working towards/holding a Twotter command there now might read this and take something from it that will help them to enjoy, to the maximum, the best flying on offer almost anywhere.

And no, Simon et al, I won't wear the blame if your pilots start returning to Moresby with jungle hanging off their wheels

To the younger pilots working there now don't believe a bloody word you read on an anonymous internet forum - go and ask those 10-12 guys I mentioned and see what they say - they're all good guys - but ya never know what sort of weirdos hang out on the WWW

Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 18th Aug 2009 at 19:29.
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 20:04
  #183 (permalink)  
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From one extreme to the other as far as pilot experience, was the MBA twotter crash P2- MBB at Mendi in 1996 .
It would have been hard to find a more PNG savvy pilot than Jim
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 21:26
  #184 (permalink)  
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At it's peak around 1980, Talair had 69 aircraft, operating 83,000 flight sectors in 44,000 flying hours per annum. The airline operated a scehduled airline network which included 140 separate airports, the free world's second largest number of scheduled airports (after British Airways). The engine shop in Goroka produced in excess of one overhauled piston engine per week (to an excellent standard!). It was one of the largest operators of Pratt & Whitney engines in the region, over 90 PT6, JT15 and PW120 series engines and with 23 Islanders, the world's largest fleet of the type.

At a meeting in Lae with then Minister for Transport Iambaki Okuk (Talair was grounded for "illegally" increasing airfares), Junior and myself (maybe around 1980 (?), Okuk accused Talair of causing over 50% of all aircraft accidents in PNG. I pointed out we operated over 60% of all PNG commercial aircraft and performed 76% of all hours flown in PNG. The grounding was lifted after two days as the country's internal travel ground to a halt.

MBA/APNG has probably almost filled the void previously occupied by Talair. I suspect the volume of air travel in PNG has probably increased very significantly from my time in PNG (1964 to 1985).

I don't and won't accept accidents "just happen" - accidents are not inevitable, they are avoidable. Each accident and incident must be fully investigated and lessons learned from the terrible loss of life that has occurred in the last 88 years.

That Sid O'Toole has to go to the media is an indictment on the atrocious and appalling aviation regulation management in PNG in recent years. I think Sid mentioned $/K4.1 million in funding? That is a mere pittance compared to the ill gotten gains of some in PNG politics.

Last edited by Torres; 18th Aug 2009 at 21:37.
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 22:36
  #185 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 77
Regrettably some of the posts on here do nothing for the cause. Chimbu et al don't bother responding to Ozangel, particularly to the 3rd para. You Old Hand Top Guns owe no explanation to these taunts and maybe if Ozangel had worked up there down the back of a C206 or a Twotter he/she would have a better appreciation of the climate and everyday flying in PNG.
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 00:43
  #186 (permalink)  
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Thumbs up Jim:

A top bloke, And sorely missed>

As for CFIT! in bad weather under pressure some are lucky.

After nearly 30 yrs in the game, alot that I knew/got drunk with/Played hard with,have gone the same way, it has come as a shock when I just counted it up?

I and alot of others on here know of another chap,(Solies 94) turned the wrong way to circle and hold to allow a faster A/C to cross his track and continue its descent.

He flew into a mountain, that he knew was there.

To er is to be human, to live a life after a career in Aviation is to be Lucky.

The blokes that have gone before me "to hold my seat at the bar"! would want and expect me/us to learn from their mistakes.

Hence the investigative part, this needs to be sorted.

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Old 19th Aug 2009, 01:28
  #187 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Australia
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Anyway you slice it, it looks and sound like a classic case of a C.F.I.T.
....or maybe not. It could have been a combination of any number of events, including spatial disorientation. The accident investigators will hopefully figure it out and leave us with something to learn.
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 01:47
  #188 (permalink)  

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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Club Morocco. Subic Bay. Philippines
Posts: 460
Some PNG Fatal Accidents Over The Years

1931 May Les Trist Junkers W34 VH-UNR Nr Wampit Gap Cru
1932 Dec F. Drayton DH60 Gypsy Moth -UMJ Wau T/o
1935 Sep C. Ferguson DH84 Dragon -URO Bitoi Gap Cru
1939 Aug W. Schaufhausen Fokker Universal -UJT Sek T/o
1940 Jan R. Doyle DH84 Dragon -URW Wau O/shoot
1941 Feb F. Buchanan DH66 Hercules -UJO Nr Wau Cru
1943 Nov W. G. Campbell Lockheed Lodestar -CAB Pt. Moresby Land.
1947 Jan D. Tapsell DH84 Dragon -AOS Mt. Kerigomna Cru
1947 Mar R. Peters Avro Anson -AKH Wampit Cru
1948 Apr S. Bowern Lockheed Hudson -ALA Markham River T/o
1948 Dec Father J Glover DH84 Dragon -AMO Mingende Land
1950 Jan H. Gibson-Lee Lockheed Hudson -BDN Lae Land
1951 Jul J. Spiers DH A Drover -EBQ Lae Cru
1951 Sep F. Barlogie DH84 Dragon -AXL Nr Karanga Cru
1951 Aug H. Hartwig Auster J5 -KAN Goroka Gap Cru
1951 Dec S. Peebles DH84 Dragon -URV Yaramunda Beat-up
1953 Mar Dr. J. McInerney Auster J5 -KSY Vanimo Harbour T/o
1955 Aug W. Passlow DH84 Dragon -AOT Togoba Cru
1957 Jun J. Gray DH82 Tigermoth - AQS Arona Gap Cru
1958 Jun A. Motterram Lockheed Hudson -AGG Lae Land
1958 Jul R. de Forest Norseman -GSA Mendi Cru
1960 Dec D. Gleeson Norseman -GSC Nr Kuli Gap Cru
1961 Mar G. Wallace Piaggio P166B -PAL Nr Kokoda Gap Cru
1961 Jun Father H. McGee Dornier DO27 - Mt. Gisauka Cru
1961 Oct S. Magano Cessna 170B -BVH Aiome Cru
1961 Dec B. Badger DHC3 Otter -SBS Nebilyer Gap Cru
1961 Dec S. Zuydam DHC3 Otter -SBS Nebilyer Gap Cru
1962 Oct G. Wicks Cessna 185 -GKD Nr Mt. Hagen T/o
1964 Sep R. Jaensch Dornier DO27 -EXA Tauta T/o
1965 Jan J. Gaffney Cessna 205 -GKG Mt. Helwig Cru
1965 Jan L. Wright Cessna 205 -GKG Mt. Helwig Cru
1965 Jun Father J. Wallachy Cessna 206 -DFW Bundi Gap Cru
1966 Aug M. Aldridge Cessna 336 -CMQ Nr Kagamuga Clb
1966 Mar R. Smith Cessna 172 -DGL Vunakanau Para.drop
1967 Jun J. Harveson Cessna 185 -MFG Nr Olsibip Cru
1967 Nov I. Oliver Beech B55 Baron -GKJ Goroka T/o
1967 Jun L. Zampese Dornier DO27 -SHB Yangoru T/o
1968 Feb W. Wallace Bell 47 -CSK Bundi Cru
1968 Jul A. Ignatieff Beech Musketeer - Mt. Hagen T/o
1968 Nov D. Binnie Bell 47 -FIQ Olsibip T/o
1968 Nov R. Komareck Cessna 206 -ATG Nr Imonda Cru
1969 Dec C. Randell Piper PA23 -CSB Wasu.Unknown Cru?
1970 Apr D. McKillop DHC6 Otter -TGR Nr Kainantu Cru
1970 May W. Venables Hiller 1100 -UHD Mt. Otto T/o
1970 May R. Cornett Piper PA 23 -COB Gurney T/O
1970 Jun W.Pacher Cessna 206 -UFV Aitape Land
1970 Aug W. Hutchinson Beech B55 Baron -ILG Nr Balimo Cru
1970 Aug J. Collett Piper PA22 -ROC Vitiaz Strait Cru
1970 Mar R. Smith Piper PA23 -SPM Mt. Victoria Cru
1970 Dec G. Dennis Cessna 206 -GKN Nr Porgera Cru
1972 Apr D Hunt Piper PA23 -SIL Nr Nadzab Cru
1972 Sep P. Arnold Shorts SC7 Skyvan -PNI Mt. Giluwe Cru
1973 Feb A. Kosowski Cessna 185 -STP Nr Mt Hagen Cru
1973 Apr L. Shields Cessna 207 -UBY Goroka T/o
1973 May G. Venville Cessna 206 -GKL Omkalai Land
1973 Dec R. B. Smith Cessna 206 -MKK Mt. Sarawaket Cru
1973 Dec R. J. Smith Cessna 206 -MKK Mt. Sarawaket Cru
1974 Feb G. Stockel Cessna 206 -KBO Nr Daulo Pass Cru
1974 Mar. B. Cheers Cessna 206 -UBM Ninjil Pass Cru
1974 Mar G. Hoskin Cessna 206 -EFO Lae Airport T/o
1974 Jul R. Dunhill Cessna 206 -AMS Garaina Clm
1974 Nov Father H. Hoff Cessna 206 -SIM Kimil Gap Cru
1974 Dec I. Rowles Cessna 185 -FLZ Sialum Cru
1975 Jun D. Lockyer Piper PA 23 -AVR Nr Rabaul Cru
1975 Nov R. Johnson Cessna 206 VHUCU Nr Koisipe River Cru
1976 Sep J. Ginder Piper PA 30 N80AS Rabaul Land
1976 Sep C. Bailey Cessna 206 -MFI Nr Kumbwareta Cru
1976 Dec Father P. Cullen Cessna 206 -IQA Kainteba Land
1977 Oct J. Fox Beech B55 Baron -GKP At sea nr Gurney Cru
1977 Dec J. Keane Cessna 206 -SEE Bundi Land
1978 Feb P. Giles DHC6 Otter -TGT Garaina Land
1978 Nov Father V. Cafarella Cessna 206 -PAX Nr Gembogl Cru
1978 Dec R. Gray Cessna 206 -SEL Nr Marawaka Cru
1979 Jan G. Walker Cessna 206 -TTB Nr Wau Cru
1979 May M. Hawkes Beech B55 Baron -GKS Nr Tari Gap Cru
1979 Jul J. Johnson Cessna 206 -MFC Nr Aitape Cru
1979 Nov P. Anderson BN2A -ATU Nr Kerema Cru
1979 Dec B. O’sullivan N22B Nomad -DNL Manari O’shoot
1980 May D. McLaren Cessna 206 -DSR Bimim Cru
1980 May M. Garlick Beech B55 Baron -HAB Nr Tari Gap Cru
1980 Jul R. Hoffman Beech B55 Baron -GKN Tari Gap Cru
1981 Apr C. Channell Cessna 402 -GKJ Nr Kuli Gap Cru
1981 May J. Miria N22 Nomad PNGDF Nr Kilifas Gap Cru
1981 May E. Skofi N22 Nomad PNGDF Nr Kilifas Gap Cru
1982 May D.Bayliss BN2A -HAC Nr Lake Kopiago Cru
1982 Aug J.Crowley Cessna 206 -FHY Nr Kikori Cru
1982 Sep G. Craig Cessna 206 -SEG Nth Doma Peaks Cru
1983 May Dr. J. Smythe Piper Lance -RHF False Gap Cru
1983 Jul R. Russell BN2 -FHP R Mouny Hagen Cru
1984 Jan R. Davie BN2 -ISH Nr Omkalai Cru
1984 Mar R. Bennett Piper Cherokee 235 -TEM Nr Tomba Gap Cru
1984 Sep A. .Parr BN2 -ISG Nr Tabubil Cru
1984 Dec C. Harvey-Hall Cessna 182 -WKD Nr Bulolo Clb
1985 Sep R. Millar BN2 -DNW False Gap Cru
1985 Sep P. Cahill BN2 -DNI Nr Kilifas Gap Cru
1985 Nov P. Summerfield Cessna 206 -MFE Nr Sangapi Cru
1986 Sep P. Beer BN2 -KAD Nr Kaintiba Cru
1986 Oct M. Massey Hughes 500 - MIC Nr Karimui Cru
1987 Feb P. Hunt Emb110 -RDM Hoskins App
1987 Jun P. Caisley BN2 -KAE Nr 20 Mile Gap Cru
1987 Jun K. Eather BN2 -KAE Nr 20 Mile Gap Cru
1987 Oct G. Onga Tai Cessna 402 -GKG Malekolon Ldg
1987 Dec A. Stevenson BN2A -COG Kanabea T/o
1988 Apr T. Stanton BN2A -CBE Bomai T/o
1988 Aug A. Cameron BN2A -ATZ Kanainje O/shoot
1989 Jun B. Wilson DHC6 Twin Otter -OTR Nr Dahomo Cru
1989 Jul R. Hopwood DHC6 Twin Otter - RDW Porgera East Gap Cru
1990 Jan G. Bouchard Cessna 182 -MCM Mebok T/o
1990 Jul R. Godden BN2A -DNJ Nr Mt. Oubine Cru
1990 Sep R. Peaker Cessna 206 -MFH Eliptiman T/o
1990 Nov G. Cox Cessna 206 -MAC Nr Tari Gap Cru
1991 Mar M. Keeley Hughes 369 -HNA Nr Mt. Guliwe Cru
1991 Oct A. Finhelly IA350 -PAB Nr Kiam Village Cru
1992 Mar J. Gray Hughes 500 -PAU Nr Tari T/o
1992 Apr J. Cabrera EMB110 -RDS Daulo Pass Cru
1992 Jun D. Hannah Cessna 185 -AWM Nr Munumu Cru
1992 Nov P. Gill Cessna 180 -UCF Nr Koisipe Cru
1992 Dec R. Goddard BN2A -MBE Nr Alotau Cru
1993 Feb R. Rowe Cessna 185 -ROW Nr Gumine Cru
1993 Oct D. Wirth BN2A -HBE Nr Bank Cru
1993 Oct P. Brown BN2A -HBE Nr Bank Cru
1994 Mar D. Jessop Bell 206B - HBA Nr Buka Des
1994 Apr Father G. Panizzo Cessna 206 - CMV Nr Sumumini Cru
1994 Nov A. McDonald BN2A - SWC Nr Selbang Des
1994 Dec R. Hoey DHC6 Twin Otter - MFS Nr Selbang Des
1994 Jul D. Wilson Cessna 206 - NTB Nr Kandrian Cru
1995 Apr P. Messervy Piper PA28 - SPE Woitape Des
1995 Jul J. Rydstrom DHC4A Caribou -VTC Nr Kiunga Cru
1995 Jul E. Terry DHC6 Twin Otter - MBI Gurney T/o
1995 Jul J. Dima BN2A -TNT Karimui Clb
1995 Dec P. Goldsworthy BN2A -NAM Begesin Land
1996 Jul J. Miller DHC6 Twin Otter -MBB Nr Mendi Des
1996 Dec N. Lee Piper PA31 -NGM Porgera Land
1997 T. Peninsa DHC6 Twin Otter Nr Goroka Des
1999 J. Nemai BN2A Nr Hoskins Clb
1999 M. Gueder Hughes 500 Mt. Wilhelm Clb
1999 A. Andrews EMB110 Nr Goroka Cru
2000 Jun M. Lee Cessna 402 -SAV Nr Kerema Des
2002 May L. Anderson Fletcher FU24 -SDG Nr Kaw Kaw Gap Cru
2002 Dec E. Elit BN2A -CBB Guhu Strip T/o
2003 May J. Twitt AS315 -PHQ Into water Nr Lae Cru
2004 Jul P. Wiseman DHC6 -MBA Near Onoge Cru
2004 Jul Rachael Kaltia DHC6 -MBA Near Onoge Cru
2004 Dec Ian Leslie Cessna 185 P2-IDL Near Chimbu Cru
2005 Feb R. West DHC6 Near Tububil Crz
2005 Feb C. Hansen DHC6 Near Tububil Crz
2006 Mar23 P.Fasnacht C206 P2-MFP Near Tari Crz?
2006 Apr 20 ???? Hlift C06 near ????
2007 Mar P. Kundin EMB110 P2-ALU Near Kandrian f/Ldg
2007 F.Merdock EMB110 P2-ALU Near Kandrian f/Ldg

2009 Au 11 Ms J Moala DHC6 P2- Nr Kokoda
2009 Au 11 R. Souka DHC6 P2- Nr Kokoda
Nearly all of these accidents occurred to unpressurised aircraft flown by a single pilot with a high percentage during the cruise phase of flight without transmitting a distress call. This could indicate most of these aircraft flew straight into a hill, possibly in inclement weather.

Last edited by Sharpie; 19th Aug 2009 at 07:24.
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 01:53
  #189 (permalink)  

Retired Tiger pilot
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Club Morocco. Subic Bay. Philippines
Posts: 460
Roll of Honour

There are some errors in the list that I tried to limit to commercial civil aircraft fatal accidents, excluding RAAF Kudgeru prang. Since leaving PNG, I have had some difficulty in keeping abreast with aircraft rego's etc (other info from post courier and friends) I think that the boy(s) in accident investigation are too busy to provide much detail.

I hope that the list may form a basis for futher research, so go for it!

Happy safe flying.
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 02:35
  #190 (permalink)  
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I am fortunate enough to have received helicopter mountain training from a seasoned instructor with high time experience of flying in PNG and a couple of things spring to mind : (1) Never assume it is clear on the other side of a ridge and (2) Never assume you have enough power to carry you over it. Must be easier said than done.
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 02:43
  #191 (permalink)  
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Sharpie, that is a sobering and comprehensive list...! You've done very well to keep tabs on all that.

There was one recent one that I noticed missing. Mr P.Fasnacht in a C206 (not sure of the rego - MAF) I think it was March/April 2006 at Tari. Going to his funeral in Hagan was part of my introduction to flying in PNG...
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 06:05
  #192 (permalink)  
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Very sobering list. Two of my best mates are on it and they died almost exactly12 months apart. I still get a tear in my eye when I think of them
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 06:12
  #193 (permalink)  
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thanks for posting that - agreed...Pierre Fassnacht is missing on that list...(another prang where no authority examined the engine/wreckage)

Does anyone know if anyone has kept the "roll of honour" going on the right hand side of the bar at the Aeroclub???
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 06:42
  #194 (permalink)  
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Pierre Fasnacht was P2-MFP on 23/03/06

Also Hevi-Lift Bell 206 P2-HCE on 20/04/06.

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Old 19th Aug 2009, 08:22
  #195 (permalink)  
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It's a long list. And that's only the fatals. What about the wrecked and written off's without fatalities - it must go for several pages!

Like many others on this thread, I knew and flew with many of these pilots. I knew the pilots of GKG, ATF,CSB and SPM during the period 65-70.

When I was a didiman based in the Madang District, I spent time in Bogia, Kar Kar, Aiome and Simbai. On a walk from Aiome up to Simbai in 62, we passed the wreckage of the Cessna 170, (BVH) accident from Oct 1961. It is down in the creekbank pitpit at a location known as Warabung - not Aiome as shown, as it's probably closer to Simbai. It's up a blind valley - past the saddle where you change over into the lower Simbai valley.

Sobering reflections.
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 08:37
  #196 (permalink)  
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"After nearly 30 yrs in the game, alot that I knew/got drunk with/Played hard with,have gone the same way, it has come as a shock when I just counted it up?

I and alot of others on here know of another chap,(Solies 94) turned the wrong way to circle and hold to allow a faster A/C to cross his track and continue its descent.

He flew into a mountain, that he knew was there.

To er is to be human, to live a life after a career in Aviation is to be Lucky."

I think Hoggsy might have regressed in time back to 1948!

Someone should tell him todays date!
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 08:47
  #197 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2002
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disorientation is part of it, but that usually happens if you're IMC isnt it?
Usually, but not always. I've seen pilots get seriously disoriented 'clear of cloud' but without a visual horizon - a situation that can arise during flying ops in PNG.

The only reason recovery was possible on these occasions was that there was plenty of space between their position and the terrain....and it was a training/teaching event in controlled conditions.
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 08:57
  #198 (permalink)  
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P2-MCD had a go at the Kokoda gap earlier that day could'nt get in, then continued to Efogi landed there while they were on the ground Efogi P2-MCB started their descend thru the kokoda gap.MCD tried the kokoda gap again still couldnt get thru so they did the DME arrival using the Girua NDB thats how they got in to the kokoda I reckon to their surprise MCB was not on the ground.

P2-KST left POM at 10.40 (13 mins before P2-MCB), landed sfaely at Kokoda, and left again for POM at 11.12.

P2-MCB started descent thru Kokoda Gap at 11.11.

My info is that P2-MCD landed safely at Kokoda at 11.35.

Just shows you how quickly the weather changes up there!

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Old 19th Aug 2009, 09:01
  #199 (permalink)  
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(1) Never assume it is clear on the other side of a ridge
I was taught the same rule with slightly different phrasing: "Never press on in poor weather in the Highlands unless you can see the ridge after the ridge immediately ahead of you."
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Old 19th Aug 2009, 09:13
  #200 (permalink)  
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I grew up in TPNG and the Gray's were friends of my parents (1957) I was staying with them in Goroka when the Tiger moth accident happened. I was working for TAA in Goroka in 1967 and was at the "ples-balus" when the TALAIR baron flown by Oliver went almost vertical on takeoff before tail sliding into the coffe plantation next to the strip.
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