QF piot retrenchments

[aerostatic]

At the risk of being seriously flamed, I'd like to expand of what I wrote above. The number 1 priority of a union is to survive, to continue to exist. It can only do this if it has financial members, and the more the better! When push comes to shove, it will always put it's own interests ahead of those of it's members. Most of the time these interests coincide, but occasionally some members will be 'sacrificed' in the interests of defending their turf and keeping the highest possible membership. Imagine if all these QF SO's who are facing the axe right now had been given the option to transfer to Jetstar Au, or Jetstar NZ, or Jetconnect (ok, not recruiting at the moment), or Jetstar Asia, or Vietnam? The redundancies would evaporate because some of the business units are experiencing expansion, while others are contracting (mainline). Unfortunately, the free transfer of labour between business units tends to be against the interests of the unions (turf protection) and hence they try and convince their members it is also against their interests. Members of the various unions should be demanding transfer provisions in their contract agreements. In my view, the only way this will succeed is if the unions talk to one another and draw up some boundary lines so that they can be assured of maintaining a sustainable level of membership, and hence survival of the union. You see, the unions are playing right into the hands of the senior management by pitting their members against those of the other unions, in the interests of survival of the union.

Declaration: I am not anti unionisation, I am a member of a pilot union myself. We just need to get them working more for the members and less for themselves.

[missing link]

Well of course the S/O's could always go to Q/Link and fly the Dash - but they would have to do an interview, sim ride , IQ/Skills test and go to the bottom of the seniority list.........................Just like QLink drivers do!

[Tankengine]

Aerostatic,
Your second post could not be further from the truth!

AIPA has been pushing movement between sections of the group for years!

[vigi-one]

Missing Link, watch the change in attitude when the link announces an order of 4 C-Jets early 2010.

[ROH111]

Yesterday, 11:46 #15 (permalink) illusion

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 103


Unfortunately, redundancies are an unfortunate fact of life in the economic cycle. Perhaps mainline is no longer the holy grail of aviation that some thought it once was.

Why not consider applying for a job (on your own merits) and stop trying to hide the skirt of an MOU. What makes you think that just because you are a QF pilot it automatically entitles you yo a seat with a separate organisation? Get on with it and leave the sheltered workshop.

That is how 90 percent of the general population live.


Illusion,

Apply for a job on your own merits? Mate, we all did when we got into Qantas.
Jetstar is NOT a separate organisation, it is written on the side of the aircraft (QANTAS GROUP)... how is that separate?
Sheltered workshop? Perhaps it is, however NONE of the junior pilots in QF are sheltered, we have had to work hard for what we acheived.
Speaking purely for my group on the ground school, we are all ex GA (upto 10 years experience) REX check and training, Military from RAAF to British Airforce, Army etc... If we are all chopped, well, we have all battled to get to where we got to, we no doubt will continue to battle to get our next job and it's likely we will get one before you finish your GFPT.

[Capt Kremin]

One of the rumours flying around now is that the two new A330's supposedly going to Mainline at the end of this year will now be re-routed to J*, along with a current mainline airframe that was going to J* anyway.

This is all wrapped up in the delay of the 787.

Instead of a net increase of one A330 to Mainline, they may have a net loss of one airframe.

This will mean a further surplus of mainline pilots as a direct result of the perceived need to expand Jetstar International.

Please don't tell me Jetstar is a separate airline. It is only separate when it suits them. AIPA had better be very careful with what they do with the Sale Act case. It may be the only bit of leverage they have left.

[waren9]

So the question becomes

How many QF pilots will take up an MOU spot with Jetstar to save the jobs of the most junior S/O's?

And, of those, how many would be prepared to resign from Qantas altogether so that they may take a Jetstar command?

I might suggest that those who would do this already have availed themselves of the opportunity.

Keg?

[DutchRoll]

Agreed, Kremin.

Whether or not Jetstar is "separate" from QF mainline heavily depends upon which direction the money is flowing at the time.......

[4PW's]

Just flew to Singapore from Cairns on JQ.

The flight crew got off in Darwin. Three pilots got on, two at the controls, one in the back to position to Singapore and fly back to Darwin.

Did I mention the flight to Cairns from Singapore a week or so earlier?

Flight crew change in Darwin. New flight crew flew to Cairns, stayed with the airplane from the 0800 arrival until the midday departure back to Darwin. As above, they got off on arrival Darwin, three pilots got on...

This is the future of Qantas I see. How it happened, I have no idea.

[Bypass ratio]

The future of Qantas is...........there is no future. Get out while you can. Qantas has not been the "Holy Grail" of aviation at least since the beginning of 2000. Jetstar is expanding at the expense of Qantas and if you mainline pilots can't see that then you are completely blind.

[breakfastburrito]

quote from PPRuNE 2019

The future of Jetstar is...........there is no future. Get out while you can. Jetstar has not been the "Holy Grail" of aviation at least since the beginning of 2010. Jetstar-Lite is expanding at the expense of Jetstar and if you mainline pilots can't see that then you are completely blind.

Get the point? Be careful what you wish for.

[Going Boeing]

It is important for every pilot who is available to go to the current round of QF FltOps management/AIPA briefings. You will get the facts and the suggested solutions to avoid redundancies but this is definitely not the forum to discuss them. The AIPA e-mail and survey that comes out today are important and I urge every QF pilot to return the survey promptly as the results will determine which of the solutions are used.

Bypass ratio, you obviously haven't been listening to the latest comments by Joyce about Jetstar having nearly reached the limit of its expansion.

[Keg]

The first Mainline pilot redundancy will signal the beginning of the recovery.

Lol @ Directanywhere. He/she is probably spot on the money.

I've told this story a couple of times previously on PPRUNE but in April '94 they gathered a bunch of the cadets to Sydney and told us that employment with QF was 3-5 years away so go and enjoy life and if we were still available when QF called in that time frame then well and good. QF employed the first cadet two months later and all 80+ of us were in by the following January.

Two years ago when QF was forecasting unprecedented training over the next few years a number of us on the line started to get very nervous. They've predicted that a couple of times before- late 2000, early 2001 was the one time. If Ansett hadn't fallen over they would have been spectacularly wrong. Another time was just before SARs and things got pretty quiet post that too. QF generally start employing and promoting crew 3-6 months too late, why should their decisions be any different now.

Waren9, not sure what you're asking me about. Will I take an MOU slot? No. Taking a 20% pay cut to do what I'm doing now won't thrill the missus or the bank manager. Would I do it to save a S/O? Not sure how that actually works out. I've said my piece elsewhere about how I felt I could support S/Os.

All that aside, given my place in the seniority pile there are plenty of guys that could take advantage of the MoU for a promotion and actually earn more than they do now. Will they do it? Dunno, I've been on leave for the last 8 1/2 weeks so I haven't spoken to anyone on the line for quite a while.

Remember too it was only 18 months or so ago that the then CP would not release any QF crew to fly under the MoU, despite more than a couple wanting to take that option.

[Alien Role]

How perceptive DirectAnywhere, and I see that Keg picked up on your thinking......
By the time the public service, beaurocratic management style of Qantas get around to initiating redundancies, with the oncosts that will occur, the economic recovery will be in full swing!
The GOL as proposed by Ian Woods must be the answer, as one section of the Group employing whilst Qantas is contemplating redundancies would have to be the height of commercial stupidity.

Role on.....

[Dragun]

ROH111

Apply for a job on your own merits? Mate, we all did when we got into Qantas. Jetstar is NOT a separate organisation, it is written on the side of the aircraft (QANTAS GROUP)... how is that separate?

I agree 100%! However, if Eastern or Sunstate were to start making FO's redundant and mainline were still hiring, do you think those FOs would be tranferred into SO jobs with no questions asked and no retesting? The idea of sending SO's to Jetstar or other group jobs is a fantastic one - but for those of us at Qlink who had to do some or all mainline retesting again (less than 2 years after passing it to get into Qlink) only to get a letter of intent and subsequently be told due to the down turn, when the time comes for recruitment again we have to redo ALL testing all over again for the THIRD time, the idea isn't so fair.

Even though we pass 4 cyclics a year in the Qantas sim building and having the flying kangaroo painted on the tail of the Dash8 - we're still treated like separate pilots working for a completely separate company. The door swings both ways.

Bring on the GOL!

[Mr. Hat]

..............

if Jetstar were to start making FO's redundant and mainline were still hiring, do you think those FOs would be tranferred into SO jobs with no questions asked and no retesting?

[Sand dune Sam]

I dont see how a GOL is possible with QF group companies....how does that work when you have NZ based operations operating under a NZ AoC and then want to merge that with an Australian company.

aerostatic..I dont disagree with your succinct summation of unions, however if the shoe was on the other foot and Air NZ were farming flying out to Australian companies at the expense of Kiwi jobs...well, all hell would break loose in NZ wouldnt it?

waren9..not all pilots see undercutting a mainline brand in order to fill there own logbook with jet hours as a reasonable solution these days..

[Dragun]

Yea thanks for that Mr.Hat - I was referring to the Qantas GROUP and any of the subsids that could be substituted for that word space. Which one doesn't matter - the principle is the same.

My point was that if the situation was reversed with any of the other group airlines, mainline wouldn't just accept those made redundant straight into SO positions without any retesting.

[mcgrath50]

With the recent changes making the cadetship participants having to retest before going in i'm surprised you aren't made to retest as part of your recurrent training!

[NOTAM]

Spot on Dragun! I doubt that mainline would be so quick to take on a heap of Jetstar or Eastern guys in a hurry if it was the other way round! Why should mainline guys feel its is their god given right to take jobs elsewhere? Typical Q selfish mentality