VBA + AIR or AIZ (Air New Zealand)
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This whole issue is stirring up moot points. The idea was touted by someone at Macquaire 
Yeah, like we're supposed to listen to anything that mob has to say, because they've gotten it sooooo right before. I can't believe anyone would admit to working there, let alone admit to it in the paper.
Yeah, like we're supposed to listen to anything that mob has to say, because they've gotten it sooooo right before. I can't believe anyone would admit to working there, let alone admit to it in the paper.
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The blockheads remarks at post #18 only cements mine and others views that Australians cant work with Kiwis. Memories of the shambles that was ansett and the personalities behind the scenes at Ansett are still fresh.
I suspect this latest suggestion is Virgin spin designed to take the spotlight off V as it goes down the plughole. I seriously doubt Air NZ would get involved.
PS dont mention to the Singaporeans their population aint big enough for the size of their Airline
I suspect this latest suggestion is Virgin spin designed to take the spotlight off V as it goes down the plughole. I seriously doubt Air NZ would get involved.
PS dont mention to the Singaporeans their population aint big enough for the size of their Airline
Godspeed, good points and I agree with them.
However Air NZ still has operating costs 30-40% above PB/JQ so even matching fares in the back they must be losing more than PB/JQ in comparison. Higher yeild in the front does offset this however. Economies of scale is in their favour along with a good feeder network.
If they had their own LCC they can match the cost base with totally sep. staff and wages and bottom feed using this vehicle. They could also gain by using their own check in and ground handlers, eng. etc, on a contract basis so sig. advantages their with the infrastructure already in place.
All I am thinking is how well JQ has worked for QF. Without it they would have given a LOT more away to VB.
EMB - HN and others would be ideally suited to the EMB both domestically and trans tas. But this does have training and engineering issues for PB which go against the LCC model.
However Air NZ still has operating costs 30-40% above PB/JQ so even matching fares in the back they must be losing more than PB/JQ in comparison. Higher yeild in the front does offset this however. Economies of scale is in their favour along with a good feeder network.
If they had their own LCC they can match the cost base with totally sep. staff and wages and bottom feed using this vehicle. They could also gain by using their own check in and ground handlers, eng. etc, on a contract basis so sig. advantages their with the infrastructure already in place.
All I am thinking is how well JQ has worked for QF. Without it they would have given a LOT more away to VB.
EMB - HN and others would be ideally suited to the EMB both domestically and trans tas. But this does have training and engineering issues for PB which go against the LCC model.
I am interested in how you KNOW that Air NZ costs are 30-40% higher, my point is just that it is easy to assume something to be so, then go make a whole arguement based on it as though it is fact.
A quick search on the net finds VB's CASK of 9.05c in June 2008. Air NZ does not publish their CASK separtely but it can be worked out from financial statements. 30-40% is what we are told in AU and I have to assume those figures have been researched.
Out of interest the same search did bring up the cost advantage of LCC vs Legacy in US and Eurpoe.
US - Soutwest had 45% in 2001, 37% 2005
Eurpore - Ryanair 70% 2003, 60% 2007.
So it would be fairly safe to assume that JQ and PB do have a cost advantage over Air NZ when their wages are lower, fuel approx the same, and it would be safe to say overheads lower. The only cost I could think greater would be financing costs.
Out of interest the same search did bring up the cost advantage of LCC vs Legacy in US and Eurpoe.
US - Soutwest had 45% in 2001, 37% 2005
Eurpore - Ryanair 70% 2003, 60% 2007.
So it would be fairly safe to assume that JQ and PB do have a cost advantage over Air NZ when their wages are lower, fuel approx the same, and it would be safe to say overheads lower. The only cost I could think greater would be financing costs.
Last edited by On Guard; 1st Jul 2009 at 03:29.
I would love nothing more than to see ANZ go to the wall. What they did to Ansett was disgusting. I hope VB as the ashes from Ansett light a big fire under their arse and give them what they deserve.
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I see. So, Branson "rips up a cheque", and you feel that contributed to the downfall of AN? You didn't actually think AN were in any position to buy did you? You didn't really think Branson was going to sell, did you? At the end of the day, AN weren't going to be saved by ANYBODY, short of a Gov't bailout. And we know that wasn't going to happen. Your anger is misdirected in this case I'm afraid.
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You ANZ haters are fooling yourselves, granted that they didnt help and were probably the nail in the coffin for Ansett, however.... Ansett had been dieing a slow death for years, unrealistic costs base, ageing fleet mis management dating back into the 80's had a lot to do with it. Get over it !
that they didnt help and were probably the nail in the coffin for Ansett
Singapore Airlines tried to buy Ansett to gain access to the Pacific. GD went to Howard and had the sale blocked and so Ansett was offered to ANZ who jumped at the chance. Fact is they borrowed more than they could service and soon the spares were being pillaged and sent over the pond, All ANZ flights into AU were being fueled on Ansetts account and any profit Ansett made was brought across to stop ANZ going under. Ansett made 190 million dollar profit the year before ANZ got hold of it and in two years ANZ ran it into the ground.
The NZ government bailed them out and put the national budget behind for 4 years and every Aussie air traveler for the next few years paid an Ansett levy on all Air travel to give back to the families what the Kiwis stole hitting the average family in the hip pocket.
We have long memories and are patient.
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i think the tie up would be nothing short of good business sense. ANZ already do the heavy checks for VB/PB alot of the mods and offers them good value for money or why would VB send a/c to NZ?
can you think of a better way of getting into a bigger market an AOC and excellent route rights?
hasn't VB/VOZ got rights to SA now if it wants pending delivery of the 777's?
add connecting flights to LOndon which ANZ already have slots for, maintenance and pilot and cabin crew based there and you have around the world connections to OZ and NZ. Links to the star alliance and Virgin Atlantic. This would be a formidable challenge for the flying rat and all this with a very young fleet and excellent choice in aircraft 777 200 and 300ER's of which ANZ start recieving this year to my belief.
What can QF offer aging 747 tired 767 and a few A380's.
Can Jetstar take the whole industry on with a couple more 330's?
the rich middle eastern carriers offering very high quality service to Europe erroding market share and now VOZ, ANZ UAL and very soon DELTA all to be operating the pacific.
With all this I think the tie up would be a huge benefit for VB as they will be able to use what ANZ already have in place much like what Jetstar does with QF.
ANZ could then offer single tickets and connections and frieght all over OZ
Just my opinion
can you think of a better way of getting into a bigger market an AOC and excellent route rights?
hasn't VB/VOZ got rights to SA now if it wants pending delivery of the 777's?
add connecting flights to LOndon which ANZ already have slots for, maintenance and pilot and cabin crew based there and you have around the world connections to OZ and NZ. Links to the star alliance and Virgin Atlantic. This would be a formidable challenge for the flying rat and all this with a very young fleet and excellent choice in aircraft 777 200 and 300ER's of which ANZ start recieving this year to my belief.
What can QF offer aging 747 tired 767 and a few A380's.
Can Jetstar take the whole industry on with a couple more 330's?
the rich middle eastern carriers offering very high quality service to Europe erroding market share and now VOZ, ANZ UAL and very soon DELTA all to be operating the pacific.
With all this I think the tie up would be a huge benefit for VB as they will be able to use what ANZ already have in place much like what Jetstar does with QF.
ANZ could then offer single tickets and connections and frieght all over OZ
Just my opinion
GG & N-BW
Ansett was screwed by Aussie's for Aussie's, starting with News Corp and finishing with Qantas and your government. Air NZ was only a bit player in the outcome.
The Air NZ Ansett deal, it wasn't a good business decision but it was driven by the underarm deal Air NZ got from Qantas and the Aussie government with the so called open skies agreement.
You guys keep on about what AirNZ is supposed to have done to Ansett but you never hear New Zealanders whinging on about the way Ansett Australia screwed Ansett New Zealand and its' staff. People in glass houses.......
Ansett was screwed by Aussie's for Aussie's, starting with News Corp and finishing with Qantas and your government. Air NZ was only a bit player in the outcome.
The Air NZ Ansett deal, it wasn't a good business decision but it was driven by the underarm deal Air NZ got from Qantas and the Aussie government with the so called open skies agreement.
You guys keep on about what AirNZ is supposed to have done to Ansett but you never hear New Zealanders whinging on about the way Ansett Australia screwed Ansett New Zealand and its' staff. People in glass houses.......
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waren9, you obviously have no objection to Australia and Australians, seeing as a Kiwi you are working in Australia and reaping the rewards.....get one thing straight, and I know this is hard for you Kiwis to accept as you like to think you are one above Australians...a bit rich if you ask me, coming from a culture that stood in the docks in court and orchestrated a litany of lies with Erebus..but anyway, you guys in NZ have a chip on both shoulders...
Bottom line.....Air NZ didnt have to buy Ansett......they only did so as a result of the Kiwi small d!ck syndrome.....in a nutshell.
Bottom line.....Air NZ didnt have to buy Ansett......they only did so as a result of the Kiwi small d!ck syndrome.....in a nutshell.
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Outstanding economic commentary from PPRuNe as always.
Australians. Best in the world at nursing grudges and provoking pointless arguments.
Next there'll be a reference to 1989.
O8.
Australian citizen
Australians. Best in the world at nursing grudges and provoking pointless arguments.
Next there'll be a reference to 1989.
O8.
Australian citizen
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Guys. Emotional aspects of Ansett aside (and as the alias suggests, you wont hear any argument from me about what Air NZ did to AN), it was "absolutely" if you'll pardon the pun, criminal, this beat-up about a possible tie-up between DJ and NZ is just that - a beat up.
Macquarie is looking for a stir, and it has succeeded in providing the response it intended.
DJ/NZ are both very different entities with different objectives and markets. That they both offer a J class across the pacific as part of their international VA/NZ services and share some maintenance ventures is about all they have in common. I suspect the NZ equivalent of the ACCC would have field day trying to pick through any submission lodged, and from all accounts Fyfe seems too smart a man to repeat the arrogance of his predecessors. Add to that the start-up of JQ domestic within NZ, (teething issues aside), and the continued presence of Pacific Blue in their back yard - Air NZ will shortly have enough on their plate to deal with without considering "mergers and acquisitions".
Macquarie is looking for a stir, and it has succeeded in providing the response it intended.
DJ/NZ are both very different entities with different objectives and markets. That they both offer a J class across the pacific as part of their international VA/NZ services and share some maintenance ventures is about all they have in common. I suspect the NZ equivalent of the ACCC would have field day trying to pick through any submission lodged, and from all accounts Fyfe seems too smart a man to repeat the arrogance of his predecessors. Add to that the start-up of JQ domestic within NZ, (teething issues aside), and the continued presence of Pacific Blue in their back yard - Air NZ will shortly have enough on their plate to deal with without considering "mergers and acquisitions".
Sand dune Sam
You sound like a well balanced person yourelf, a log on each shoulder.
Coming from a person who lives in a country which was populated by convicts a couple of centuries ago. 
Apologies to the rest of you Aussies who are good guys.
Correct, as in most things in life you don't have to do the things you might do. Though in this case I think you need a history lesson to discover why AirNZ got involved in Ansett to start with. Something to do with Aussies reneging on a deal.
You sound like a well balanced person yourelf, a log on each shoulder.
a bit rich if you ask me, coming from a culture that stood in the docks in court and orchestrated a litany of lies with Erebus
Apologies to the rest of you Aussies who are good guys.
Bottom line.....Air NZ didnt have to buy Ansett......
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"Ansett made 190 million dollar profit the year before ANZ got hold of it and in two years ANZ ran it into the ground."
- finally someone comes out with the truth. I saw it regularly, 1st hand, just before curfew out of Syd... and AN where actively recruiting, with awards from it's new international service and all (onboard chefs +service!)... it's sad that, that unique service wasn't (hasn't been) harnessed by those that drove it under... but then again you can't tell "lil'bro" anything without upsetting the chips on the shoulders with the massive tall poppy syndrome there and all, you said "Sand Dune Sam"! ...mind you Mr Hogan took that award winning service to the sand dunes and look what loads +service they have... I shan't go on suffice to say there are ALOT of lessons to be learnt from the past... if your mind is open to them!
I'll repeat my earlier post that the media have been "frothed-up" by the shonks, that should stay well out of Aviation Airline ownership (trying to influence the Chess pieces) and concentrate on the worldwide discord and backlashes (esp EU!) they have through their Macquarie Airports section!
Tidy up your front yard before you worry about elsewhere, I suggest, especially at a time when airlines don't have the margins to support your Cuban Cigar fetishes! Airlines can re-route/reduce frequency... Airports are a static asset with no choice... so look after the hands that feed you! .
-
finally someone comes out with the truth. I saw it regularly, 1st hand, just before curfew out of Syd... and AN where actively recruiting, with awards from it's new international service and all (onboard chefs +service!)... it's sad that, that unique service wasn't (hasn't been) harnessed by those that drove it under... but then again you can't tell "lil'bro" anything without upsetting the chips on the shoulders with the massive tall poppy syndrome there and all, you said "Sand Dune Sam"! ...mind you Mr Hogan took that award winning service to the sand dunes and look what loads +service they have... I shan't go on suffice to say there are ALOT of lessons to be learnt from the past... if your mind is open to them!I'll repeat my earlier post that the media have been "frothed-up" by the shonks, that should stay well out of Aviation Airline ownership (trying to influence the Chess pieces) and concentrate on the worldwide discord and backlashes (esp EU!) they have through their Macquarie Airports section!
Tidy up your front yard before you worry about elsewhere, I suggest, especially at a time when airlines don't have the margins to support your Cuban Cigar fetishes! Airlines can re-route/reduce frequency... Airports are a static asset with no choice... so look after the hands that feed you! .
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I can understand that there are people still harbouring ill feeling towards Air NZ, but have a think about it.........Air NZ is a brand name, like Qantas. Yes, Air NZ bought Ansett (and god knows why..... I remember at the time talking to my colleagues and we were all concerned) BUT.....Air NZ was owned by Brierleys at the time. They were busy screwing AIr NZ staff over at the time as well! All of those Brierleys execs are long gone, Air NZ is owned by another crowd.. (yeah, yeah. The government). SO why is it there are so many people out there that wish Air NZ to go to the wall and me and 10000 other employees to lose their jobs? We were not responsible for Ansett's demise
