V Australia commenced BNE-LAX today
Phew!
The last several posts have been robust, intelligent, and mostly free from emotion. IMHO, well thought out and delivered by opposing sides with their respective opinions.
For what it's worth guys, keep up the good work.
Maui. I sincerely hope it works out. I also hope that if VA are around for the "long haul", some pressure can be brought to bear with regard to T&C's. You have correctly identified that any change in this regard will depend on the opportunities elsewhere down the track. History has shown that without such leverage and a unified pilot group, these changes will simply not happen.
Good luck, and trust 'em (management) as far as you can throw 'em!
The last several posts have been robust, intelligent, and mostly free from emotion. IMHO, well thought out and delivered by opposing sides with their respective opinions.
For what it's worth guys, keep up the good work.
Maui. I sincerely hope it works out. I also hope that if VA are around for the "long haul", some pressure can be brought to bear with regard to T&C's. You have correctly identified that any change in this regard will depend on the opportunities elsewhere down the track. History has shown that without such leverage and a unified pilot group, these changes will simply not happen.
Good luck, and trust 'em (management) as far as you can throw 'em!
My criticism is not whether someone took a particular job, accepted whatever terms and conditions or chooses to fly short haul or long haul.
It is simply that one port and one route is being portrayed by some as what will be the norm for a career in VA.
Your 1000 hours in 100 days fails to acknowledge the down route layover time - 2 days flying but 4/5 days away does not equal 100 days of 'operation'
My 900 hours in 150 days can be achieved by being home every night should I so wish.
North/South flying may well involve less flying per day, min rest overnights and more days at work.
Math 101
It is not my intent to match your height in this pissing competition but just to keep a small amount of reality in the what appears to be some unrealistic expectations in VA.
I genuinely hope that an increased attrition rate is not necessary to improve the T&C's in VA but I think I know this company reasonably well and it certainly took empty crew seats and idle aeroplanes to get where we (VB pilots) are today.
Once again good luck.
It is simply that one port and one route is being portrayed by some as what will be the norm for a career in VA.
Your 1000 hours in 100 days fails to acknowledge the down route layover time - 2 days flying but 4/5 days away does not equal 100 days of 'operation'
My 900 hours in 150 days can be achieved by being home every night should I so wish.
North/South flying may well involve less flying per day, min rest overnights and more days at work.
Math 101
It is not my intent to match your height in this pissing competition but just to keep a small amount of reality in the what appears to be some unrealistic expectations in VA.
I genuinely hope that an increased attrition rate is not necessary to improve the T&C's in VA but I think I know this company reasonably well and it certainly took empty crew seats and idle aeroplanes to get where we (VB pilots) are today.
Once again good luck.
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I guess I haven't been clear, I am only posting about my personal circumstance and my personal opinion.
No, boring as hell!!! But I only do it 2 - 3 times a month, not 18 times a month, and I sleep half the time!! I always knew it would be boring, but at the other end it's a blast and the people I work with are young, motivated, interesting, friendly and simply fun to be around.
I am lucky. I have experienced a lot in aviation. I have also put myself in a position where I don't have to worry too much about the almighty dollar. I can simply love the job and when I don't, I can move on.
As for the VB guys who turned down the job, I would have also. Why move from a decent company on decent pay to a decent company on worse pay. But a lot of us moved from "Crappy" companys on "crappy" pay to a "decent" company on "crappy pay". I will tell you though, that all VB pilots that choose to come to VA, have a friend in me. It is your right to assume your rightful postion at VA. It may delay my ascent to the left seat, but it is your right and I will not begrudge you of that right. You WILL be welcome and you WILL enjoy the flying.
A lot point to how ****ty the job is going to get when we start going "north/south" or domestic flying. But to me, that means expansion and an opportunity to move to the left seat. Isn't that what we all want?
9 days off??? Not likely. With 3 trips every 28 days that are really 4 day trips (less than 96 hours), you are going to have 16 days off. Anymore than that and you will exceed 1000 hours per year. Will it get worse??? Most likely, but until then I am going to enjoy it. Why anticipate the downfall without enjoying the current great job. Again, if it starts to suck I will simply move on.
There are no longer "careers" in aviation. You go with what suits you best at the moment and when it doesn't "suit you best" you move on.
Anyway, if you don't enjoy your job and feel a need to bitch about it, then do something about it. Although we find ourselves in a "financial crisis", there are always opportunities and those that can do it will prosper.
"Luck is opportunity meeting preparation"......
I have been extremely lucky
So you call 13 hours over water with nothing out the window interesting?
I am lucky. I have experienced a lot in aviation. I have also put myself in a position where I don't have to worry too much about the almighty dollar. I can simply love the job and when I don't, I can move on.
As for the VB guys who turned down the job, I would have also. Why move from a decent company on decent pay to a decent company on worse pay. But a lot of us moved from "Crappy" companys on "crappy" pay to a "decent" company on "crappy pay". I will tell you though, that all VB pilots that choose to come to VA, have a friend in me. It is your right to assume your rightful postion at VA. It may delay my ascent to the left seat, but it is your right and I will not begrudge you of that right. You WILL be welcome and you WILL enjoy the flying.
A lot point to how ****ty the job is going to get when we start going "north/south" or domestic flying. But to me, that means expansion and an opportunity to move to the left seat. Isn't that what we all want?
9 days off??? Not likely. With 3 trips every 28 days that are really 4 day trips (less than 96 hours), you are going to have 16 days off. Anymore than that and you will exceed 1000 hours per year. Will it get worse??? Most likely, but until then I am going to enjoy it. Why anticipate the downfall without enjoying the current great job. Again, if it starts to suck I will simply move on.
There are no longer "careers" in aviation. You go with what suits you best at the moment and when it doesn't "suit you best" you move on.
Anyway, if you don't enjoy your job and feel a need to bitch about it, then do something about it. Although we find ourselves in a "financial crisis", there are always opportunities and those that can do it will prosper.
"Luck is opportunity meeting preparation"......
I have been extremely lucky
9 days off is the contracted agreement. However 3 1/2 trips a month accrues max hours. So, regardless of how many days off per month are contracted, you will be spending a lot more time at home than the allotted 9.
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Is any job perfect?
If, in future, V Australia expands into the Asian and/or domestic market, then this will possibly coincide with an upturn in the world's economy.
If the current workforce is unhappy they will move on as other jobs reappear, perhaps taking their experience towards future 787 operators with the easy conversion etc.
If they are happy they will stay.
Sounds like every other job in the world.
Most of the crew I have met are quite happy living back on the beach with their '9 days off'. So far.......
Back to the topic.....
I was told from crew the load was about 66% out of BNE on a flight last week (dont know how many Y class etc).
Not sure of the return leg.
Flaps.
If, in future, V Australia expands into the Asian and/or domestic market, then this will possibly coincide with an upturn in the world's economy.
If the current workforce is unhappy they will move on as other jobs reappear, perhaps taking their experience towards future 787 operators with the easy conversion etc.
If they are happy they will stay.
Sounds like every other job in the world.
Most of the crew I have met are quite happy living back on the beach with their '9 days off'. So far.......
Back to the topic.....
I was told from crew the load was about 66% out of BNE on a flight last week (dont know how many Y class etc).
Not sure of the return leg.
Flaps.
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But I only do it 2 - 3 times a month, not 18 times a month
As for 18 times a month I just did 11 days in a month, 20 days off, for maximum hours and 3 nights away from home, and I have done the longhaul stuff and I say no thanks!
All for their own when they are new! ^^
From June VA will be operating SYD-MEL, crew stay on a/c for several hours then operate MEL-SYD. No allowances as meal provided onboard.
I'm not negative, I've just been around a bit and seen it all before. You should NEVER write things in an EBA then expect them not to happen.
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Mr Neville , Just for your info VA does not have EBA, Individual agreements maybe.
And you will probably find your theory on VA replacing VB/PB on short domestic routes a flawed conclusion.
As for Melbourne its rumoured to be on the back burner at the moment with no start date this year anyway.
And no not all of VA pilots are naive as your so humbly propose.
And you will probably find your theory on VA replacing VB/PB on short domestic routes a flawed conclusion.
As for Melbourne its rumoured to be on the back burner at the moment with no start date this year anyway.
And no not all of VA pilots are naive as your so humbly propose.
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Yes, the SYD-MEL-SYD will probably throw a spanner in the works for a while, but the ultimate aim is for a MEL-LAX, which will return things to the status quo for a period, until the next change.
It amuses me how incredible short sighted some are, whilst others choose not to view the past.
I'm sure if we look back into the history books we will find that even the mighty Qantas had crap conditions at one stage, and the current, generous conditions were most likely hard fought over many years, taking advantage of periods where pilots had the upper hand and locking things in via unions etc so that they could weather the storm when things were not so good.
So it has been for VB and probably for the bulk of the free world carriers.
The hope is that VA will go the same road over time. First and foremost the airline has to be self sustaining. A key to that is low and predictable salaries in the first few years. If, and only if, the airline establishes itself, will the opportunity to improve conditions present itself.
Presumably, if VA survives, in a few years time it will be operating in a fairly competitive pilot market as carriers struggle to cope with a resurgent world economy. That will be the opportunity for VA/VB pilots to exert some pressure for an improved contract/EBA, and like every other good employee package in the aviation industry, it won't come easy. It will be a long and tiring struggle, but if the market dictates it, it will happen, as long as the VB/VA pilot group has the stomach for the fight.
If the airlines goes under, the issue has gone away. If the pilots don't have the balls for the fight, then the problem has gone away for the management. If the world economy doesn't recover for 10 years, there probably won't be a shortage of experienced drivers. There are a lot of variables and no one knows the answers.
One thing is for sure though, if nobody had taken the jobs, VA would not exist. If VA didn't exist then there would be no chance of a better package down the road. Of course some will argue that if nobody took the jobs, VA would have had to put the salaries up. That may be true, but it may have been the case that they would not have taken the risk if the salary base was too high. Who knows.
We are where we are. At the moment everyone is positive and working hard to get the company profitable, but everyone also has one eye on the future, with the expectations of better conditions, and the other eye on the employment market. If one becomes more attractive than the other, then that is where most people will focus their attention.
Another thing that is also guaranteed is that the fabulous deal that the QF guys work under is never going to be seen again. So there is no point comparing apples with oranges, or wishing for something that is never going to happen. For those that are senior enough at Qantas to feel secure, then good luck to you. For those who are looking down the barrel at a future with J*, the VA and VB guys will be working with you to map out the future of airline pilot conditions in Australia for the foreseeable future.
That is my view of the reality of OZ aviation in the short term. But i have been wrong before.
V
It amuses me how incredible short sighted some are, whilst others choose not to view the past.
I'm sure if we look back into the history books we will find that even the mighty Qantas had crap conditions at one stage, and the current, generous conditions were most likely hard fought over many years, taking advantage of periods where pilots had the upper hand and locking things in via unions etc so that they could weather the storm when things were not so good.
So it has been for VB and probably for the bulk of the free world carriers.
The hope is that VA will go the same road over time. First and foremost the airline has to be self sustaining. A key to that is low and predictable salaries in the first few years. If, and only if, the airline establishes itself, will the opportunity to improve conditions present itself.
Presumably, if VA survives, in a few years time it will be operating in a fairly competitive pilot market as carriers struggle to cope with a resurgent world economy. That will be the opportunity for VA/VB pilots to exert some pressure for an improved contract/EBA, and like every other good employee package in the aviation industry, it won't come easy. It will be a long and tiring struggle, but if the market dictates it, it will happen, as long as the VB/VA pilot group has the stomach for the fight.
If the airlines goes under, the issue has gone away. If the pilots don't have the balls for the fight, then the problem has gone away for the management. If the world economy doesn't recover for 10 years, there probably won't be a shortage of experienced drivers. There are a lot of variables and no one knows the answers.
One thing is for sure though, if nobody had taken the jobs, VA would not exist. If VA didn't exist then there would be no chance of a better package down the road. Of course some will argue that if nobody took the jobs, VA would have had to put the salaries up. That may be true, but it may have been the case that they would not have taken the risk if the salary base was too high. Who knows.
We are where we are. At the moment everyone is positive and working hard to get the company profitable, but everyone also has one eye on the future, with the expectations of better conditions, and the other eye on the employment market. If one becomes more attractive than the other, then that is where most people will focus their attention.
Another thing that is also guaranteed is that the fabulous deal that the QF guys work under is never going to be seen again. So there is no point comparing apples with oranges, or wishing for something that is never going to happen. For those that are senior enough at Qantas to feel secure, then good luck to you. For those who are looking down the barrel at a future with J*, the VA and VB guys will be working with you to map out the future of airline pilot conditions in Australia for the foreseeable future.
That is my view of the reality of OZ aviation in the short term. But i have been wrong before.
V
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"What happens when you start doing Tasmans, Syd-Mel or Perths or start going to Asia?"
Poor old Voz guys. Either your airline is doomed to fail in which case tough titties OR you are doomed to have poor rosters as a result of expansion of the airline in which case . . .. tough titties.
Poor old Voz guys. Either your airline is doomed to fail in which case tough titties OR you are doomed to have poor rosters as a result of expansion of the airline in which case . . .. tough titties.
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I seem to remember when Virgin Blue started up and there was some sort of gentleman's agreement that when things pick up, the pilot's salary would match those of Qantas and Ansett.
In about 16 months time if VA are still around (really hope they are), their management will need to Swiftly improve things or suffer dramatically.
They got away for now with paying crap salaries to people who were for whatever reason obliged to work for those salaries. But the novelty is wearing thin already and by the time the global economies ramp up again, these sought-after commodities (rated and current pilots) will be very valuable on the open market. VA will have to up their salaries dramatically or suspend certain operations. Pity the management didn't learn this vital lesson from what was eventuating at V Blue in 2008.
Also a pity that they have pre-set an inevitable and already appearing disgruntled work environment when by paying a bit better they would both ensure a happier workforce now and keep pilots in the future.
They got away for now with paying crap salaries to people who were for whatever reason obliged to work for those salaries. But the novelty is wearing thin already and by the time the global economies ramp up again, these sought-after commodities (rated and current pilots) will be very valuable on the open market. VA will have to up their salaries dramatically or suspend certain operations. Pity the management didn't learn this vital lesson from what was eventuating at V Blue in 2008.
Also a pity that they have pre-set an inevitable and already appearing disgruntled work environment when by paying a bit better they would both ensure a happier workforce now and keep pilots in the future.
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I'm sure if we look back into the history books we will find that even the mighty Qantas had crap conditions at one stage
It will take a monumental shortage and economy turnaround to get past shiny jet syndrome.
There are no longer "careers" in aviation.
I hope it works out for the VA guys and gals.
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After reading the posts in this topic I am still amazed and some what disgusted by the slagging match over who get's paid the most or the better conditions someone has. Forget it. Some of you have no problem slagging off Cabin Crew when we have an issue but look at yourselves, behaving like children over who has the better crew meal or better pay and conditions. All of you are bloody lucky to be flying out of Australia, your home, and not out of some dusty desert or where ever, away from your family and I hope you all continue to do so. For f*&%$ sake be civil and support each other. I read PPRune to get info and comments about what's going on in the industry, not to read bitch sessions between pilots who think someone working for the opposition is inferior. I go to work and sometimes fly with 3 or 4 different "terms of employment" crew but we are adult and have a job to do and we do it well together without discrimination or bias. Regardless of V Aus paying less for the same job you are in, so what, be thankful for what "you" have because if it was you trying to join a new airline out of some unforseen circumstance I'm sure you would take it. Why not try and support each other as a Pilot group instead of the nasty "them and us" situation. It really makes for boring reading.
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2-3 times a month at what 4 or 5 days a shot?
It will take a monumental shortage and economy turnaround to get past shiny jet syndrome.
today's pilot will drop his/her company at the drop of a hat given the right opportunity.
I am starting to suspect that some of you V OZ guys are a little naive.
Listen gentlemen, someone made a comment about the "honeymoon period". Well I know from experience that if you can't enjoy the honeymoon, you aren't going to enjoy the marriage!!! Life is grand at V right now and with the right mix of people it may remain that way. But I am a realist and know that it will probably go south eventually. But I am going to enjoy the current ride. Good people, good routes, nice layover, great place to live, great aircraft....can it get any better. Check your airline and ask yourself if you can say the same. Not many do right now.
I for one am simply going to enjoy it while it lasts