Jetstar NZ News????
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Horatio I think we are trying to argue the same point only coming from a different angle.
JetStar etc are here to stay.
There will continue to be people willing to accept lower terms and conditions if they think they can benifit somehow from that decision.
My point all along is that those with the resources ie: the pilots with well paid jobs should be supporting their Industrial representitives to improve those sub-optimal conditions if they can.
Your last comment
"Should a 50 year old QF FO take a pay cut for command, just so he can log "A380 command" in his logbook"
Sorry don't follow. I can't see how any F/O of any age or from any type in Qantas doing a command onto the A380 would drop in pay. Does not compute.
If you want to compare say an A380 S/O's wage to say that of a 767 F/O's go right ahead a whole different contentious kettle of fish.
What I think you should really be worried about is the connection between our current Contract and how it's tied inextricably with what are mostly nearly obsolete aircraft types.
What happens when new aircraft arrive and the Company takes advantage of all those Workplace changes bought about by the previous Government.
Would your 50 year old Qantas F/O be willing to take a pay cut and be forced to move to NZ just to remain in a job as an F/O?
That sir is the real upcoming question.
JetStar etc are here to stay.
There will continue to be people willing to accept lower terms and conditions if they think they can benifit somehow from that decision.
My point all along is that those with the resources ie: the pilots with well paid jobs should be supporting their Industrial representitives to improve those sub-optimal conditions if they can.
Your last comment
"Should a 50 year old QF FO take a pay cut for command, just so he can log "A380 command" in his logbook"
Sorry don't follow. I can't see how any F/O of any age or from any type in Qantas doing a command onto the A380 would drop in pay. Does not compute.
If you want to compare say an A380 S/O's wage to say that of a 767 F/O's go right ahead a whole different contentious kettle of fish.
What I think you should really be worried about is the connection between our current Contract and how it's tied inextricably with what are mostly nearly obsolete aircraft types.
What happens when new aircraft arrive and the Company takes advantage of all those Workplace changes bought about by the previous Government.
Would your 50 year old Qantas F/O be willing to take a pay cut and be forced to move to NZ just to remain in a job as an F/O?
That sir is the real upcoming question.
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PegasusFury99, you are quite correct.
The attitude of horatio and others is the sort of adversarial 50's union claptrap that you seldom see in European aviation. Funny how we all get along so well over there without dragging unions into it or finding petty ways to bite the hand that feeds us. Funny how we all get paid so well, too.
One of these days, the more strident union advocates will work out that things go a lot better if you negotiate in a calm and rational manner without all the threats and vitriol. The rest of the world knows this.
Having said all that... I suppose it is possible that some of the NZ company managements here are just as one-eyed and out of touch... par for the course I guess in NZ aviation.
The attitude of horatio and others is the sort of adversarial 50's union claptrap that you seldom see in European aviation. Funny how we all get along so well over there without dragging unions into it or finding petty ways to bite the hand that feeds us. Funny how we all get paid so well, too.
One of these days, the more strident union advocates will work out that things go a lot better if you negotiate in a calm and rational manner without all the threats and vitriol. The rest of the world knows this.
Having said all that... I suppose it is possible that some of the NZ company managements here are just as one-eyed and out of touch... par for the course I guess in NZ aviation.
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Beer time, AFAP is one of the two unions that represent Oz Airlines. AIPA is Qantas and AFAP is Virgin n Jetstar.
I hear the CHC based Jestar pilots on Oz contract are doing some Oz flying, so it would lead you to think that the Jetstar NZ pilots will do the same. Interesting how one aircraft can be flown by two different flightcrews all earning significantly different packages.
As Jetstar Oz have taken most of the expansion from Qantas maybe Jetstar NZ are about to do the same to Jetstar Oz. I guess similair to Virgin Blue, Pacific Blue OZ and NZ.
QF about to do the same when Jetconnect start flying VH rego 800's across the tasman. All the thin edge of the wedge!
Will be interesting to see what NZALPA ends up doing as Jetconnect QFNZ guys are having their flying replaced by Jetstar which may start a fight.
From my understanding AFAP and AIPA don't get-on, my view is that the two unions need to be united or divided they will fall. I guess they are falling already.
Funny how for both QF, Jetstar and Virgin when crew shortages require it they have been happy to send Oz conditions to fly planes with NZ crews. I.e QF flying for jetconnect, VB flying for PacB and soon Jetstar Oz helping out Jetstar NZ.
Would a four pilot crew in a B787 beable to go NZ-OZ-ASIA in one duty? Food for thought?
Cheers
I hear the CHC based Jestar pilots on Oz contract are doing some Oz flying, so it would lead you to think that the Jetstar NZ pilots will do the same. Interesting how one aircraft can be flown by two different flightcrews all earning significantly different packages.
As Jetstar Oz have taken most of the expansion from Qantas maybe Jetstar NZ are about to do the same to Jetstar Oz. I guess similair to Virgin Blue, Pacific Blue OZ and NZ.
QF about to do the same when Jetconnect start flying VH rego 800's across the tasman. All the thin edge of the wedge!
Will be interesting to see what NZALPA ends up doing as Jetconnect QFNZ guys are having their flying replaced by Jetstar which may start a fight.
From my understanding AFAP and AIPA don't get-on, my view is that the two unions need to be united or divided they will fall. I guess they are falling already.
Funny how for both QF, Jetstar and Virgin when crew shortages require it they have been happy to send Oz conditions to fly planes with NZ crews. I.e QF flying for jetconnect, VB flying for PacB and soon Jetstar Oz helping out Jetstar NZ.
Would a four pilot crew in a B787 beable to go NZ-OZ-ASIA in one duty? Food for thought?
Cheers
Max
I agree, we are arguing the same point from different directions. You are quite correct in what you are saying about the 747 being forced to move to NZ.
You say:
My point, made above in extremis, is that we have all made a lot of sacrifices in the early years of our careers with the objective of winning one of those few well paid jobs at the top of the tree.
I think most of the guys we know flying jets would say "it was all worth it".
My question about the A380 "command hours" was simply extending the GA mentality of "I'll just take this Chieftain job, even though it is below award pay, to get Twin command hours" to the largest aircraft in the VH fleet.
You are right, it doesn't compute.
How far along our career paths do we need to travel before we actually reap the rewards?
Remoak I am not a unionist firebrand. I am only greatly saddened to see the market value of my chosen career path constantly eroded.
I agree, we are arguing the same point from different directions. You are quite correct in what you are saying about the 747 being forced to move to NZ.
You say:
Your last comment
"Should a 50 year old QF FO take a pay cut for command, just so he can log "A380 command" in his logbook?"... doesn't compute
"Should a 50 year old QF FO take a pay cut for command, just so he can log "A380 command" in his logbook?"... doesn't compute
I think most of the guys we know flying jets would say "it was all worth it".
My question about the A380 "command hours" was simply extending the GA mentality of "I'll just take this Chieftain job, even though it is below award pay, to get Twin command hours" to the largest aircraft in the VH fleet.
You are right, it doesn't compute.
How far along our career paths do we need to travel before we actually reap the rewards?
Remoak I am not a unionist firebrand. I am only greatly saddened to see the market value of my chosen career path constantly eroded.
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No my comments are not aimed at Aussies. Kiwis are just as capable of completely screwing themselves through an over-reliance on adversarial union activity.
Horatio
Fair enough, however many would say that the "erosion" you speak of is simply the market finding it's level with regard to pilot renumeration. Many would say that pilot salaries were always artificially high, that the job no longer carries the same risks or responsibilities as it once did before FMS and FBW, and that of course pilots will moan if they see their pay packets being hit, but their complaints are unjustified in the modern employment market. It's simply a matter of perspective. That is one of the reasons that pilots will pay money to go and fly for Jetstar and the likes.
I'm not saying I agree with any of those views expressed above - I think there is a balance to be found. The American pilots went on a jihad a few years ago to force airlines to pay them more. They got what they demanded, but shortly thereafter airlines were filing for chapter 11 and most of the pilots have now given back what they won a few years ago. Many are even worse off than they were. There is a lesson there that Aussies and Kiwis would do well to learn.
The job simply isn't as valued as highly as it once was. Sad, but true. No amount of chest-beating is going to chnage that.
Horatio
Fair enough, however many would say that the "erosion" you speak of is simply the market finding it's level with regard to pilot renumeration. Many would say that pilot salaries were always artificially high, that the job no longer carries the same risks or responsibilities as it once did before FMS and FBW, and that of course pilots will moan if they see their pay packets being hit, but their complaints are unjustified in the modern employment market. It's simply a matter of perspective. That is one of the reasons that pilots will pay money to go and fly for Jetstar and the likes.
I'm not saying I agree with any of those views expressed above - I think there is a balance to be found. The American pilots went on a jihad a few years ago to force airlines to pay them more. They got what they demanded, but shortly thereafter airlines were filing for chapter 11 and most of the pilots have now given back what they won a few years ago. Many are even worse off than they were. There is a lesson there that Aussies and Kiwis would do well to learn.
The job simply isn't as valued as highly as it once was. Sad, but true. No amount of chest-beating is going to chnage that.
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A320: 7-12yrs?
Horatio,
In Europe its 7-12 MONTHS into the right seat of a B737NG or A320! Very few T Props here to cut your teeth on.
Last week I flew with an F/O who only has 300hrsTT. 12 new F/Os started over the winter - all with 300hrs. Last winter with another 300hr TT F/O on his first line flt, T/O vis 150/150/150, landed 4:40hr later in 800m sand storm, then that evening landing in Europe CAT3A.
AND - not one word of BITCHING ALL DAY !!!!!!!!
In Europe its 7-12 MONTHS into the right seat of a B737NG or A320! Very few T Props here to cut your teeth on.
Last week I flew with an F/O who only has 300hrsTT. 12 new F/Os started over the winter - all with 300hrs. Last winter with another 300hr TT F/O on his first line flt, T/O vis 150/150/150, landed 4:40hr later in 800m sand storm, then that evening landing in Europe CAT3A.
AND - not one word of BITCHING ALL DAY !!!!!!!!
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Mich, I think Jetconnect will be flying both ZK & VH Tails just as Pac Blue/VB do. Jetconnect in the process of getting ASIC and Aussie ATPL's.
Have not heard of any union objections to this!
May have had ear muffs on for walk around!!!
Kiwilad, NZALPA have asked the question re NZJ* taking over domestic flying in NZ. Nothing heard at this stage, and I doubt it will come to anything.
I agree with you re Crews from QF, VB and soon J* Oz filling in as required for their off shoots in NZ. Seems to me that they all moan about loss of their conditions and yet they cross the pond to help out!!
Why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
remoak I agree with you too, our job is not as highly valued now as it use to be! Whilst "automation" has turned us into 'managers' rather than 'hands on operators' we are still responsible for hundreds of lives and millions of dollars worth of equipment every time we move off the airbridge! This responsibility and the associated risks are still out there [perhaps a little less obvious than it use to be} and this should never be forgotten! I do not think pilot salaries alone have been behind the downfall of any Airline. Rather they are used as one of many scapegoat's when things go wrong.
J*NZ has already had to change it's departure times because of customer complaint's and it's not even flying yet! However I'm sure it will survive in some form, if only as a feeder for international's rather than a stand alone domestic operator!
Interesting times!
Cheers,
Wideglider. {Always remember, "This could be the one"}
Have not heard of any union objections to this!
May have had ear muffs on for walk around!!!Kiwilad, NZALPA have asked the question re NZJ* taking over domestic flying in NZ. Nothing heard at this stage, and I doubt it will come to anything.
I agree with you re Crews from QF, VB and soon J* Oz filling in as required for their off shoots in NZ. Seems to me that they all moan about loss of their conditions and yet they cross the pond to help out!!Why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
remoak I agree with you too, our job is not as highly valued now as it use to be! Whilst "automation" has turned us into 'managers' rather than 'hands on operators' we are still responsible for hundreds of lives and millions of dollars worth of equipment every time we move off the airbridge! This responsibility and the associated risks are still out there [perhaps a little less obvious than it use to be} and this should never be forgotten! I do not think pilot salaries alone have been behind the downfall of any Airline. Rather they are used as one of many scapegoat's when things go wrong.
J*NZ has already had to change it's departure times because of customer complaint's and it's not even flying yet! However I'm sure it will survive in some form, if only as a feeder for international's rather than a stand alone domestic operator!
Interesting times!
Cheers,
Wideglider. {Always remember, "This could be the one"}
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we are still responsible for hundreds of lives and millions of dollars worth of equipment every time we move off the airbridge
The difference is that aviation is now perceived as "low risk", which paradoxically works against pilots being paid high salaries. Why would you pay a guy a six-figure salary to drive a computer with wings?
When I first started in this industry, the (civil) uniform meant something and the public generally respected what it represented. Little boys would ask for your autograph on the back of a timetable, that sort of thing. Those days are long gone, thanks mainly to the LCCs and their reduction of the airline to the status of a cheap bus service.
Personally I am quite grateful that I had the bulk of my career in the days before LCCs were quite so rampant.
It's pretty much all downhill from here.
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Are you a GA champion Dodgey?
Your suggested fearful response to routine flying smacks of ignorance.
I would rather fly with an enthusiastic 300 hour European integrated school graduate every day over a 3000 hour OZ GA astronaut with attitude. Swinging the propellers in the sunshine is way over-rated. Airlines know this too, have one tally your logbook for an independant appraisal.
GA wankers....
Your suggested fearful response to routine flying smacks of ignorance.
I would rather fly with an enthusiastic 300 hour European integrated school graduate every day over a 3000 hour OZ GA astronaut with attitude. Swinging the propellers in the sunshine is way over-rated. Airlines know this too, have one tally your logbook for an independant appraisal.
GA wankers....
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Swinging the propellers in the sunshine is way over-rated... GA wankers....
...and you'd be making that comment from a Cadetship or Defence Force background no doubt Walter?
Tell me then Walter, over the past decade why have European and Asian Carriers been so active (to this day!), in their hiring of Aust/NZ "GA/Regional wankers"???
Min time/cadets/MPL came about because of the shortage of such experienced "GA/Regional wankers" from many countries worldwide.
From what I have experienced in my 20 years so far is that, no matter what training is given, you can not substitute (GA ******) command time. I have witnessed those that have tried and when under the pump after a so called "routine flying" takes a non-normal, they have crumbled and leaned on the often more experienced F/O heavily, or it's all gone to ****e simply because they have had no experience/real incidents to draw/learn from.
Sadly now the profession is just about putting 2 bums on the seats in the pointy end, so long as they have a license. I hear and read Pornstar NZ accordingly, are having to draw F/O's from a pool of SJS candidates willing to accept the tripe on offer, as the experience simply is no longer around (granted NZ Regionals still have a large pool of experience, living regionally).
I've certainly taken my shades off, because the short term future of this industry is not so bright, with "the race to the bottom". It's fast becoming a financially insane profession to personally maintain.
Happy Landings
...and you'd be making that comment from a Cadetship or Defence Force background no doubt Walter?
Tell me then Walter, over the past decade why have European and Asian Carriers been so active (to this day!), in their hiring of Aust/NZ "GA/Regional wankers"???
Min time/cadets/MPL came about because of the shortage of such experienced "GA/Regional wankers" from many countries worldwide.
From what I have experienced in my 20 years so far is that, no matter what training is given, you can not substitute (GA ******) command time. I have witnessed those that have tried and when under the pump after a so called "routine flying" takes a non-normal, they have crumbled and leaned on the often more experienced F/O heavily, or it's all gone to ****e simply because they have had no experience/real incidents to draw/learn from.
Sadly now the profession is just about putting 2 bums on the seats in the pointy end, so long as they have a license. I hear and read Pornstar NZ accordingly, are having to draw F/O's from a pool of SJS candidates willing to accept the tripe on offer, as the experience simply is no longer around (granted NZ Regionals still have a large pool of experience, living regionally).
I've certainly taken my shades off, because the short term future of this industry is not so bright, with "the race to the bottom". It's fast becoming a financially insane profession to personally maintain.
Happy Landings
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Tell me then Walter, over the past decade why have European and Asian Carriers been so active (to this day!), in their hiring of Aust/NZ "GA/Regional wankers"???
I have flown with many pilots from integrated training systems, low on hours but with structure and discipline. From many countries they came too, Ireland, Germany, Malaysia to name a few. Overall an excellent product. Very knowlegable and eager to learn.
On the flip side, you have an OZ FO with 3000 hours swinging propellors, after 500 hours on the jet he is already thumping his fist for command? There is so much to learn. This OZ cultural assertiveness that foreign airlines appreciate generally as a positive, also has a dark side. Rather than learn, many GA astronauts chose to sulk and whine.
I know who I would rather be flying with every day
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Have to agree with Walter. I went over there in 88 and saw the same two waves of Antipodeans. A lot of the '89ers ended up banging around on turboprops as the downturn started shortly thereafter.
I was involved in check and training, and the hardest job was normally training (or should I say de-training) mouthy Aussies and Kiwis, who had 3000+ hours GA time and thought they knew everything. Suffice it to say that they all got somewhat of a wakeup call when the first Euro winter hit...
By contrast the 300 hour approved course folk "got it" straight away and were generally a pleasure to fly with. Our company used to take on several of these folk every year, straight into the right seat of the 146, and we never had a problem with any of them.
It seems that many Antipodeans just can't help themselves when it comes to being aggressive and arrogant. Not all of them were like that, but the ones that were, were really bad news.
I was involved in check and training, and the hardest job was normally training (or should I say de-training) mouthy Aussies and Kiwis, who had 3000+ hours GA time and thought they knew everything. Suffice it to say that they all got somewhat of a wakeup call when the first Euro winter hit...
By contrast the 300 hour approved course folk "got it" straight away and were generally a pleasure to fly with. Our company used to take on several of these folk every year, straight into the right seat of the 146, and we never had a problem with any of them.
It seems that many Antipodeans just can't help themselves when it comes to being aggressive and arrogant. Not all of them were like that, but the ones that were, were really bad news.
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At the risk of thread drift, it wasn't just 2 waves. There was another huge intake with "validations" in '97, '98 and '99 from majors in the EU, not to mention the constant stream off to Cathay & Dragon.
This OZ cultural assertiveness that foreign airlines appreciate generally as a positive, also has a dark side.
Yes, agreed. It could possibly just come down to how they were bought up and if they copped a smack over the ear-hole as a child, or were spoilt brats. Maturity. Those I mixed with weren't as you say. Many are now though.
"There are only those that have had an incident and those who are about to!"
...it's a very costly mistake to learn it on a jet.
This OZ cultural assertiveness that foreign airlines appreciate generally as a positive, also has a dark side.
Yes, agreed. It could possibly just come down to how they were bought up and if they copped a smack over the ear-hole as a child, or were spoilt brats. Maturity. Those I mixed with weren't as you say. Many are now though.
"There are only those that have had an incident and those who are about to!"
...it's a very costly mistake to learn it on a jet.
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Wideglider, why is it that Jetconnect are getting ZK registered 800's ZK-ZQA, ZQB and ZQC? and just spent a lot of money putting ZK-JTS on the NZ register? Because NZCAA won't allow it and the Qantas union wouldn't allow it the last time Jetconnect tried for the 400's with RNP. Jetstar NZ currently does not have an AOC because NZCAA won't allow VH registered aircraft to fly domestic NZ routes. I think you'll find that Pac Blue operate ZK registered aircraft domestically in NZ.
There is no mention of VH Jetconnect aircraft and will not be. Let me know when you hear from Jetconnect management they are getting VH registered aircraft and then ask them to send a memo out to their staff. Until then it's a dream that woke you up late last night.
Case and point about being patient with management. Jet* now offering Capt's free type rating because they can't get capt's. However because of the FO's all falling over eah other, they have F*$ked themselves with a crap salary and 50% of a capt salary. Great work guys!! As I've said before No pilots, no passengers. We are the masters of our own destiny. Looks like a pretty crappy one from where I'm sitting? Yeah?
There is no mention of VH Jetconnect aircraft and will not be. Let me know when you hear from Jetconnect management they are getting VH registered aircraft and then ask them to send a memo out to their staff. Until then it's a dream that woke you up late last night.
Case and point about being patient with management. Jet* now offering Capt's free type rating because they can't get capt's. However because of the FO's all falling over eah other, they have F*$ked themselves with a crap salary and 50% of a capt salary. Great work guys!! As I've said before No pilots, no passengers. We are the masters of our own destiny. Looks like a pretty crappy one from where I'm sitting? Yeah?
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So they will pay for the Captains rating but not the FOs, who they are going to pay F**K all too?????????
These guys have to be the biggest pack of C**ts under the sun! I hope the person coming up with these T&Cs gets run over by a bus.......really slowly, and feet first.
These guys have to be the biggest pack of C**ts under the sun! I hope the person coming up with these T&Cs gets run over by a bus.......really slowly, and feet first.
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Remoak.......
In regards to your comments about FMC and FBW and pilots overpaid flying aircraft that are low risk and fly themselves, please explain to me why as an industry that is low risk, we still have numerous CFIT accidents and continual pilot error killing passengers. I know of numerous pilots that don't make the grade to fly your so called easy to fly computer with wings.
Also explain to me why other professions that now use modern computing technoligy such as bankers, achitech's, etc have not suffered these pay cuts as do the aviation professional pilots?
I can understand a bus driver being paid peanuts, at the end of the day anybody can drive a bus. According to an earlier post a manly ferry deck hand earns 75K, so I'm guessing a ferry capt would be paid a substancial amount more.
Have you also had a think about how much it costs to learn to fly our so called "low risk" computer wings that we're all so over paid to fly?
$65000 AS AN FO ON AN AIRBUS YA NUMB NUT!! Geezus!! ya can't get the point through to these guys? Sounds like comments that would come from a guy behind a desk earning six figures with a flash low risk computer! Bloody hell????
In regards to your comments about FMC and FBW and pilots overpaid flying aircraft that are low risk and fly themselves, please explain to me why as an industry that is low risk, we still have numerous CFIT accidents and continual pilot error killing passengers. I know of numerous pilots that don't make the grade to fly your so called easy to fly computer with wings.
Also explain to me why other professions that now use modern computing technoligy such as bankers, achitech's, etc have not suffered these pay cuts as do the aviation professional pilots?
I can understand a bus driver being paid peanuts, at the end of the day anybody can drive a bus. According to an earlier post a manly ferry deck hand earns 75K, so I'm guessing a ferry capt would be paid a substancial amount more.
Have you also had a think about how much it costs to learn to fly our so called "low risk" computer wings that we're all so over paid to fly?
$65000 AS AN FO ON AN AIRBUS YA NUMB NUT!! Geezus!! ya can't get the point through to these guys? Sounds like comments that would come from a guy behind a desk earning six figures with a flash low risk computer! Bloody hell????