Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific


Old 21st Mar 2009, 00:09
  #21 (permalink)  
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All of you AIPA supporters might like to consider the following.For over 20 years they were in a comfortable cocoon,they looked after themselves and didn't give a rats about the rest.Then along came you know who?The bunker thought a little ridicule here and there and we will just look down our nose at them and who will want to fly with them??That was never going to work,GD saw to that.In the swamps of aviation the regionals were also growing.Back over in the bunker the CB had been reset and the lights came back on and the writing on the wall could be seen.The whole charade over the past few years has been for one reason and one reason alone,to save their own bacon.The urgency of their posturing will ramp up as the delivery of the "Dreamliner" approaches,this is perhaps why they have now decided to embrace all professional pilots.Time will tell.
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Old 21st Mar 2009, 00:57
  #22 (permalink)  
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Sorry Boeing but I'm going to have to side with Blown on this one.

"hasn't accepted the wishes of the majority of members that it was time for a change."

Sorry I must have missed that General Election.
I thought these fine gentlemen came to power through an Executive Election by convincing a majority of Com to vote for them by running a fine political campaign of muck raking and obsfucation yet their election platform was based upon one of transparancy of power.
You're right President Bazza is a fine gentleman ,only it's appearing more and more so every day that when push comes to shove he can't or won't make a decision .
Even though the constitutional power lays with the President it's appearing to some that the real power actually lies in the hands of a few let us say ,company sanctioned individuals.
Here's a hint to anyone out there wanting to negotiate with AIPA, if you want to get Bazza's ear you must first convince "The Stockbroker" who's been running around like the Queen bee, and more importantly the companies rumoured favoured next President, old Capt "DFC with bar and tailscrape" and to a lesser extent, everyones favorite next fleet manager and all round good guy Young Liberal "Jabba the Pontificator".

Don in many ways you are correct, AIPA can only do what it's contitution will allow it to do and the people it can cover.
Who actually saw what's transpiring now back say even 5 years ago.
Well there were a few people but no one took heed.
Believe it or not, AIPA is actually evolving and despite my little dig above ,I believe they are evolving for the better.
Despite whoever is in power at AIPA they have always been fair in the long run despite short term hiccups along the way.
Just look at the Integration of TAA/Australian into Qantas.
Compare that integration document with what the AFAP managed back with the Ansett- EastWest integration, chalk and cheese.
I believe even one of Australia's highest Industrial Judges even referred to AIPA during the court case for JetStar coverage as the quintessential Union.
Even the AFAP are no longer what they once were, they too have evolved. Have they evolved enough since "the dispute" and "the great breakaway" to actually get on with it? That sir is the $64 question.
I know AIPA is willing, if it's taken what's transpiring for AIPA and the Qantas pilots to have "woken them up" so be it ,better late than never.
Because united ,we all stand a chance ,divided we all most certainly will be worse off if we continue to allow airline management to play one pilot group off against another.As you rightly pointed out ,even the Qantas pilots have finally woken up to this.

In summation I believe the greatest fear from the JetStar and Q-Link pilot's point of veiw is their relative seniority in a group situation .
As it's been pointed out before ,AIPA's bonafides in this type of situation has already well and truely been proven.
As it's playing out now ,without a unified pilot's voice even the JetStar pilots won't benifit in any meaningful way on the 787 without fair and decent working terms and conditions.That I believe ,can only be negotiated to a mutually benificial conclusion from a collectively bargained position.Could the JPC or the AFAP or AIPA ,for that matter do a better job negotiating individually or would working together on this create a better deal for all future generations of Australian pilots to share?

Last edited by max autobrakes; 21st Mar 2009 at 01:20.
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Old 21st Mar 2009, 01:16
  #23 (permalink)  
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Apologies for having to publicly disagree with you Don, but can confirm that every since I was a elected to AIPA's COM in 1999, I can recall many attempts by AIPA to unite Australian Pilots. Yes! some committees were keener than others I admit, and some Presidents more obstructive than others.

But this doesn't change the fact that little portrayed in the media is absolutely accurate and much of what is written on PPRuNe and/or Qroom is simply pitifully wrong.

Notwithstanding, implementation of an Opportunity List is the most obvious way to provide the best career for all Qantas Group Pilots. IMHO, if it isn't implemented, all Qantas Group pilots will lose when the relevant law eventually allows Qantas to base its aircraft offshore and crew them with whomever.

Fortunately all is not lost. There is vey good reason for Management, Pilots and Engineers to work together but just like pilots, management aren't united in their view either. Hopefully the Government will ensure common sense prevails all round. If they canít, regretfully it is airline employees, not shareholders, who have got the most to lose.
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Old 21st Mar 2009, 07:31
  #24 (permalink)  
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Despite whoever is in power at AIPA they have always been fair in the long run despite short term hiccups along the way.
Just look at the Integration of TAA/Australian into Qantas.
I think Don might be able to shed more light on this but as i remember, Eastern Australian Airlines were then owned by Australian Airlines but the then regional pilots were never considered by AIPA for integration along with the Australian Airlines pilots, they were only interested in pilots who threatened their jobs, other jet endorsed pilots.
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Old 21st Mar 2009, 09:03
  #25 (permalink)  
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Wooden Eye,thank you for that response.I would like you to cast your mind back to the coverage case that AIPA ran some time ago,evidence was given by a COM member who is a regional pilot and an ARG chap,remember him???The part of his evidence that contradicts your version is that he stated the reason he wanted AIPA as his industrial representative was that they ONLY represented Qantas Group pilots.Do you remember his evidence???In fact, when he was cross examined he was left out on a limb as it appears you forgot to tell him about the inclusion of Virgin pilots in your claim.There is no doubt from his offering at that hearing that he was interested in nothing but Qantas Group pilots and he was the representative YOU had flogging your wares in the regionals,and have no doubt,he was faithfully saying exactly what you told him to.(You should have checked his statement prior to the hearing )So how is that uniting pilots in Australia??? As for the GOAL,you have never disclosed how you were going to get Co. to agree to it,and you still have not done so and until you do it will remain just another ruse on your(AIPA) part.
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Old 22nd Mar 2009, 00:44
  #26 (permalink)  
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I believe you are correct Newsensation, my memory of the events were Australian Airlines/TAA fully owned EAA at the time and I think a large percentage of Sunstate.

EAA had an intergration case running at the time with Australian Airlines/TAA, QANTAS then purchased Australian Airlines/TAA.

After that purchase QANTAS had exactly the same relationship with TAA/Australian Airlines as TAA had with EAA.

That being QANTAS fully owned TAA/Australian, and TAA/Australian fully owned EAA.

Now many of the pilots in Australian/TAA had previously missed out on QANTAS interviews or didn't have the desired requirements to be accepted into QANTAS, just the same as many of the Regional pilots.

However AIPA accepted the TAA/Australian pilots without question, they then backed the companies view and didn't want anything to do with the regionals.

There was a token 200 numbers that were withdrawn after a period of time.

I can still recall the President at the time saying at one of hearings, "they are good turbo prop pilots but wouldn't make good JET pilots".

That was 15 years ago and the same process is repeating itself, AIPA didn't want anything to do with Jetstar, as they thought they would still get all the jet flying.

Now they are expanding they feel threatened, and they want a part of the action.

Once again nothing really has been mentioned about the Regionals, at this stage they are still only flying the turbo props, however take a close look at the latest C series Bombardier, starts at 110 seats goes all the way up to 149 seats.

The 737-400's are going out of service and the 717 are nearing the end of their life, these things are being looked at as I speak.

I can gaurantee that unless some sort of intergrated list is sorted prior to an announcement regarding the C series, the Regionals will tell AIPA to go and jump.

Remember these things go up to 149 seats, the jet rate is in the current EBA.

What better way for managemnt to reduce the Short Haul cost structure than to place these C Series into the Regionals.

When it does happen don't blame the Regionals for reducing the overall payrate in the industry as you do Jetstar, this was created by AIPA many years ago with there attitude BUGGER THE REST.

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Old 23rd Mar 2009, 03:47
  #27 (permalink)  
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You should talk to some of the ex EAA crew now with QF who are now QF Captains about the deal and "token" 200 numbers.
All EAA crew had the chance, some did not take it for various reasons.

Some thought they could get better seniority by continuing the court case against QF which they had previously taken against TN - they were wrong!

AIPA has been trying to get an integrated list for years to no avail, have the EAA Pilots [through the AFAP I presume] been trying as well?

It's time we all started working together, you seem to continue the race to the bottom with you last statement.
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Old 23rd Mar 2009, 04:23
  #28 (permalink)  
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Teggun, perhaps it's a suitable time to look at the history of AIPA. During the late 70s/early 80s, the AFAP was a professional body that was dominated by the interests of Ansett pilots - simply because they had the numbers in their own mainline plus the many subsidiaries. Generally, the interests of the TAA pilots were in line with the AN pilots thanks to the "Two Airline" policy. Qantas pilots were in the "Overseas Branch" of the AFAP & for many years, were frustrated with their inability to get improvements through if there was any chance of a future conflict with AN's expansion plans. The subs paid by QF pilots to AFAP was a very substantial percentage of the AFAP's income but the QF pilots saw very little value for their money so eventually the decision was made to break from AFAP and form AIPA with the sole intention of looking after Qantas pilots who numbered approx 500 at the time. There was never any plan for AIPA to "grow" and poach other pilots from AFAP.

The AFAP was a very stong industrial body until the Domestic Pilots Dispute in 1989, which resulted in its industrial power being significantly reduced as well as its income stream as most of the new pilots in TN & AN didn't join the AFAP. In 1992, Qantas (then Government owned) bought Australian Airlines (TAA) from the Oz Government for $400m (SQ bid $115m as that was all it was worth with all the debt it was still carrying from '89) and AIPA was confronted with expanding coverage to include the TN pilots. There were some opinions against this - Some QF pilots wanted the organisation to continue remaining focused on international operations and the majority of TN pilots were very hostile to TN being bought by QF and they didn't want QF pilot controlled AIPA having any input to their award (all 2 pages of it). AIPA's constitution was changed & Arbitration Commission processes were carried out to include coverage of the ex TN pilots (Australian International Pilots Association became Australian and International Pilots Association). AIPA's attempt to include the TN subsidiary pilots in the extended coverage was strongly opposed by QF management - TN had always kept the regional pilots at arms length from the mainline operations and QF management decided to keep that status quo going. They said that the regional operation could not afford to become the training ground for mainline pilots.

Once QF management made it very clear that they were opposed to Regional pilots being covered by AIPA, the support for them dropped which, in hindsight, was a big mistake as their coverage would have reduced the ability of the next generation of QF management (Dixon) to use "divide & conquer" tactics. AIPA remained focused on it's own issues for a number of years after that and dropped the ball again when Dixon set up Jet Connect in NZ - the majority didn't see that this was the thin edge of the wedge (although many would say that the NJS regional operation set up by TN was the first use of this industrial tactic). Some in AIPA started getting vocal about the threat that Jet Connect type operations posed so that by the time Impulse was bought by QF, AIPA's COM wanted to act swiftly to include coverage of the Impulse pilots. AIPA's President and Industrial Manager had a meeting with a group of Impulse Pilots, advised them that the AIPA constitution would have to be changed to allow the Impulse pilots to become members and suggested that they set up their own Council (IPC) (something they could not do while they worked for Jerry) to carry out industrial negotiations until they became members of AIPA. AIPA's resources & industrial expertise were also offered in support. AIPA's COM was dismayed when some months later, word filtered back that the President had subsequently told the Impulse pilots that they were not wanted by AIPA. That was against COM wishes and was very short sighted (unless you wanted a job high up in QF management as that President subsequently went to). That unilateral action resulted in the Impulse (later Jetstar) pilots feeling very angry at being rejected and so when AIPA made attempts in subsequent years to mend bridges and include them in AIPA's coverage, they were met with distrust and resentment. In the background of all this were the QLink pilots who were not being given the career options that they deserved or decent industrial coverage.

WoodEye's ARG run AIPA started in the right direction with GOaL but with such distrust (& disinformation) amongst the pilot community, it proved very hard to bring to fruition. I have confidence that the current AIPA president will try to unify the various pilot groups so that we can achieve more in our dealings with management.

Last edited by Going Boeing; 23rd Mar 2009 at 21:03.
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Old 23rd Mar 2009, 07:32
  #29 (permalink)  
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Going Boeing, quite correct in what you posted, but it runs deeper than that, as long as QF pilots see JQ pilots as threats to their own pay packet and standard of living, there is always going to be anomosity, lets face it some of the rank and file in QF would prefer to see the whole box and dice blown of the face of the earth, and while that attitude continues it is hard for both these groups to face off in the same union. This suits management down to the ground, united we stand blah blah blah. As one from the dreaded 89 debarcle, I just wish I could get you blokes to have some unity, LCC are here to stay, far better the money from JQ is going into QF'S coffers than into say Virgin or SQ's,there is room for all, and nobody wants to see QF become a "boutique" airline as the AIPA fears, and probably rightly so, if ALL join the one big union you have management by the short and curlys, if not they will do as they please, its as simple as that, and in the current climate who knows what is down the track. DON"T END UP LIKE US!
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Old 23rd Mar 2009, 09:06
  #30 (permalink)  
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Having read #17 through #29, I rest my case. "Divided you stand"
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Old 23rd Mar 2009, 10:29
  #31 (permalink)  
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Tankengine,had the 200 numbers been the real deal as opposed to the token offer,then I ask you what EAA pilot wouldn't have taken one??There was a catch and you know it is well as the rest of us!!!As for AIPA trying to get an intergration deal up for the regionals,they talk about it and that is about it(WoodenEye we are still waiting for the plan).
Oxidant,before we can all move on together it may be a good idea to acknowledge the past.The regionals were virtually ignored until Jetstar came along,it is only recently that AIPA refer to all professional pilots as opposed to Qantas Group pilots.This is a refreshing change and hopefully there will be more in the near future.DD.
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Old 23rd Mar 2009, 12:14
  #32 (permalink)  
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What was the catch?
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Old 23rd Mar 2009, 12:39
  #33 (permalink)  
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I distinctly remember CMs comments. He is now the Chief Pilot.

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Old 23rd Mar 2009, 12:59
  #34 (permalink)  
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No he's not. He WAS the Chief Pilot.
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Old 23rd Mar 2009, 22:42
  #35 (permalink)  
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They said that the regional operation could not afford to become the training ground for mainline pilots.
How times change. Thats exactly what Qlink has become with a large number of Q Cadets now at the link. But still no progression for those that train the cadets (whom i might say are all great blokes and sheilas)
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Old 23rd Mar 2009, 22:48
  #36 (permalink)  
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Don D,

The following quote by GB:
..."AIPA started in the right direction with GOaL but with such distrust (& disinformation) amongst the pilot community; it proved very hard to bring to fruition..."

Has real relevance I believe.

In the circumstances, believe it is better for the pilot group if you contact AIPA, AFAP or NZALPA for a briefing on how the GOAL would work.

Recall that it has also had much debate here of PPRuNe, and a search of the archives should be fruitful for you.

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Old 24th Mar 2009, 06:46
  #37 (permalink)  
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WoodenEye,I know what the GOAL is and how you thought it might operate,what I do not know is how AIPA is going to get the Co. to do a 180 and accept it.You could not give the answer whilst you were Pres. and nor could your predecessor.I suspect the whole thing may have been just part of the membership drive and that there is no answer i.e.there was never going to be a GOAL just new members??
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Old 24th Mar 2009, 07:35
  #38 (permalink)  
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Come on Don, you say we don't want you and then reckon GOAL was all about us wanting new members? Why? We don't need your subs to run mainline, only to try and unite all the crews so as to benefit all of us.
Times change, people change. [some]
Progression from Cadet through dash8s to a380 Captain via regionals/jetstar/mainline SHOULD be possible, and work FOR the company but they wish to divide & conquer!

What the, Gr12 I believe.
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Old 24th Mar 2009, 19:55
  #39 (permalink)  
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Tankengine,that is no answer just polly speak.
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Old 25th Mar 2009, 04:23
  #40 (permalink)  
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Excuse me if I have a bit of a giggle here.

Human nature...what a joke.

Fact: Of the 500 or so QF guys who were in AIPA at the start, approximately 120 remain. That's out of 2500 current QF pilots.

Call it 5%.

We have people on this thread who are tarring 95% of QF pilots, people like yourselves who are generally apolitical and simply wish to make a quiet way in life, and blaming them for the current state of the piloting profession in Australia.

Fact: Jetstar pilots are joining AIPA in droves. If the current recruitment numbers continue for just a couple more months then the magic 50% + 1 will be reached. These people are joining AIPA for reasons unrelated to the attitudes of the fossilised die-hards we see who can't get their minds out of the late 70's. They don't care about what happend 25-30 years ago... they see that things have changed and disunity is death.

Times have changed. Industrial landscapes have changed. Personalities have changed.

Attitudes need to change or there will be nothing left but pleasant memories of the "Good ol days".

Build a bridge, get over it. AusALPA, AFAP or AIPA I don't care. As long as there is ONE organisation that stops the rot. Think ahead lads... not what happened back in 1981!
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