V AUS How is it going??
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keg et al,
Think it through a little further.
Assuming the V-Australia product is say about as good as the same fare would buy a traveller on QF.......
Then you have the fact that (as you say) the QF crew are paid about twice what the VA crew get.....and the 777-300 ER's economics are known to be markedly superior to the 744....
Is that situation sustainable? I know you would agree that QF should have bought a 777 fleet but even with that is there some special reason the travelling public will continue to vote with their credit cards to pay the QF drivers such a premium?
It seems to me that the VA 777 operation has much lower hurdles to get over to achieve profitable ops than does the QF 744 fleet. And that fleet is aging daily.
But then I am only a humble pilot whose best days are far behind me.
Think it through a little further.
Assuming the V-Australia product is say about as good as the same fare would buy a traveller on QF.......
Then you have the fact that (as you say) the QF crew are paid about twice what the VA crew get.....and the 777-300 ER's economics are known to be markedly superior to the 744....
Is that situation sustainable? I know you would agree that QF should have bought a 777 fleet but even with that is there some special reason the travelling public will continue to vote with their credit cards to pay the QF drivers such a premium?
It seems to me that the VA 777 operation has much lower hurdles to get over to achieve profitable ops than does the QF 744 fleet. And that fleet is aging daily.
But then I am only a humble pilot whose best days are far behind me.
Nunc est bibendum
oicur, it wasn't me that introduced the concept that VAus wasn't the top of the ladder, it was airbusa330. If I'd been O/S then I may see it as being the 'top' in order to be home but then that's inconsistent with airbus's comments about 'getting on' to the ladder. So let's be blunt and cut it down to the very basics. Airbusa330 reckons this VAus gig is a great way of getting on the ladder. I think it's sad that a long haul 777 gig is so bad that it's perceived by many- including airbusa330 by all accounts- as the first step. I reckon it's a sad indictment on the industry. Do you disagree? Do you think it's a great thing that many people see a LH 777 gig as a 'start' in the jet jobs?
Genex, normally I'd put some thought into the response but given your demonstrated tendency of not responding when shown to be inconsistent or simply wrong then most thinking readers of PPRUNE will understand why I haven't bothered with you this time.
Genex, normally I'd put some thought into the response but given your demonstrated tendency of not responding when shown to be inconsistent or simply wrong then most thinking readers of PPRUNE will understand why I haven't bothered with you this time.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: close by
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keg, Hope the 4 sectors treated you well today and that you were rewarded handsomely for it.My point was it is another door into the industry for the locals. There is one more employer for pilots. Never did I mention the ''deal''as being great, which I agree is non existent. Maybe crossed wires then. But one thing is for certain especially down that way, the Mcdonalds of airlines is surely on its way.
For me its not an option to return on that deal, and sorry was the reply.
For me its not an option to return on that deal, and sorry was the reply.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keg,
I was actually trying to be reasoned and present something that could be addressed with logic rather than disdain. They are very valid points, made by many here and there and they cut straight to the core of whether VA and\or QF's operation is sustainable
I was actually trying to be reasoned and present something that could be addressed with logic rather than disdain. They are very valid points, made by many here and there and they cut straight to the core of whether VA and\or QF's operation is sustainable
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lord Howe
Age: 44
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Paying a CFO at VA less than the FM is probably the worst insult a Company can to to an employee in this game. Unfortunatly and amazingly they think we are all equal and happy. 
Morale a make or break issue for airlines
Steve Creedy | March 13, 2009
Article from: The Australian
GREG Bamber has a simple and often ignored message for airline executives: treat your people well and it will pay dividends.
The director of research at Monash University's Department of Management argues that airlines that engage with their workers provide a better return to investors, as well as higher quality and more reliable services.
He is today releasing a book examining airline employment practices in North America, Asia, Australia and Europe.
Professor Bamber and his co-authors -- Jody Hoffer Gitell, Thomas A.Kochan and Andrew von Nordenflycht -- looked at legacy and low-cost carriers in researching Up In the Air: How Airlines Can Improve Performance by Engaging their Employees.
Teams of people based at universities around the world made case studies about airlines during the research.
"We've ... had a lot of quantitative data. We've been able to draw material from the international civil aviation authority, for example, much of which has been unpublished or not analysed in the past," Professor Bamber said.
The researchers found that where airline staff and customers reported high and rising frustration about the way they were treated this often resulted in cuts to services and staff.
Falling morale led to increased problems, such as flight delays and baggage loss, that undermined a carrier's viability.
Professor Bamber believes too many airline executives and unionists assume that adversarial industrial relations are inevitable.
He advocates instead a "virtuous circle" where more can be achieved with co-operative industrial relations.
"It's an appropriate strategy for airlines to get into and, indeed, other businesses, particularly those involved in serving customers, as many enterprises do," he said.
The Melbourne academic argues that employee relations in legacy airlines often stem from their origins.
He notes that many were founded by pilots who had been demobilised after World War I and run on military principles. He points to Lufthansa and Continental Airlines as examples of legacy carriers that have benefited from good or improving employee relations.
"Continental was very lean and mean and nasty to its employees under a previous regime and we include some detail of its transformation," he says.
"It went into bankruptcy and was relaunched with a new approach that aims to be much more engaging with its staff. It's working with its staff rather than hitting them with a battering ram and it's been much more successful in its new incarnation.
"Similarly, in Europe, Lufthansa has been more successful than, say, British Airways. Lufthansa has sought to work with its people to a greater extent. (It has) ... councils and other forms of employee participation in decision-making to a much greater extent than British Airways, which has been following a more adversarial tradition, which has been typical of the English-speaking countries."
There are also differences in the new breed of low-cost carriers typically started by flamboyant entrepreneurs.
The Monash academic points to the differences between Dublin-based Ryanair, which does not treat its employees particularly well, and US carrier Southwest. He notes that Ryanair's reputation for not treating staff or customers well has not stopped it from eating into the legacy market in Europe.
But Southwest has also prospered.
"And it treats its people very differently," he says. "It's fostered employees engagement and employee commitment and participative decision-making. It has a very partnership-oriented approach in dealing with the unions that represent its people and it's been the most consistently financially successful airline in the US since its foundation in the early 1970s.
"So they are two polar opposites -- Ryanair and Southwest."
Professor Bamber questions the extent to which the Ryanair model will be sustainable in the long run. He says customers have been annoyed and alienated, while staff are largely disgruntled. "And that might come back to bite them."
=====================
VA will need to pay more. When the aircrew shortage returns they will lose crews and have difficulty manning flights, just as VB did last year. Why put yourself in that commercial position? They may not need to pay realistic salaries now but that situation will change.
Steve Creedy | March 13, 2009
Article from: The Australian
GREG Bamber has a simple and often ignored message for airline executives: treat your people well and it will pay dividends.
The director of research at Monash University's Department of Management argues that airlines that engage with their workers provide a better return to investors, as well as higher quality and more reliable services.
He is today releasing a book examining airline employment practices in North America, Asia, Australia and Europe.
Professor Bamber and his co-authors -- Jody Hoffer Gitell, Thomas A.Kochan and Andrew von Nordenflycht -- looked at legacy and low-cost carriers in researching Up In the Air: How Airlines Can Improve Performance by Engaging their Employees.
Teams of people based at universities around the world made case studies about airlines during the research.
"We've ... had a lot of quantitative data. We've been able to draw material from the international civil aviation authority, for example, much of which has been unpublished or not analysed in the past," Professor Bamber said.
The researchers found that where airline staff and customers reported high and rising frustration about the way they were treated this often resulted in cuts to services and staff.
Falling morale led to increased problems, such as flight delays and baggage loss, that undermined a carrier's viability.
Professor Bamber believes too many airline executives and unionists assume that adversarial industrial relations are inevitable.
He advocates instead a "virtuous circle" where more can be achieved with co-operative industrial relations.
"It's an appropriate strategy for airlines to get into and, indeed, other businesses, particularly those involved in serving customers, as many enterprises do," he said.
The Melbourne academic argues that employee relations in legacy airlines often stem from their origins.
He notes that many were founded by pilots who had been demobilised after World War I and run on military principles. He points to Lufthansa and Continental Airlines as examples of legacy carriers that have benefited from good or improving employee relations.
"Continental was very lean and mean and nasty to its employees under a previous regime and we include some detail of its transformation," he says.
"It went into bankruptcy and was relaunched with a new approach that aims to be much more engaging with its staff. It's working with its staff rather than hitting them with a battering ram and it's been much more successful in its new incarnation.
"Similarly, in Europe, Lufthansa has been more successful than, say, British Airways. Lufthansa has sought to work with its people to a greater extent. (It has) ... councils and other forms of employee participation in decision-making to a much greater extent than British Airways, which has been following a more adversarial tradition, which has been typical of the English-speaking countries."
There are also differences in the new breed of low-cost carriers typically started by flamboyant entrepreneurs.
The Monash academic points to the differences between Dublin-based Ryanair, which does not treat its employees particularly well, and US carrier Southwest. He notes that Ryanair's reputation for not treating staff or customers well has not stopped it from eating into the legacy market in Europe.
But Southwest has also prospered.
"And it treats its people very differently," he says. "It's fostered employees engagement and employee commitment and participative decision-making. It has a very partnership-oriented approach in dealing with the unions that represent its people and it's been the most consistently financially successful airline in the US since its foundation in the early 1970s.
"So they are two polar opposites -- Ryanair and Southwest."
Professor Bamber questions the extent to which the Ryanair model will be sustainable in the long run. He says customers have been annoyed and alienated, while staff are largely disgruntled. "And that might come back to bite them."
=====================
VA will need to pay more. When the aircrew shortage returns they will lose crews and have difficulty manning flights, just as VB did last year. Why put yourself in that commercial position? They may not need to pay realistic salaries now but that situation will change.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Outbound
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
''VA will need to pay more. When the aircrew shortage returns they will lose crews and have difficulty manning flights, just as VB did last year. Why put yourself in that commercial position? They may not need to pay realistic salaries now but that situation will change.''
When you have a one man airline show with an''we are all equal''mantra, the salary that is certain to go up is only his one. His message is clear, if you don't like it leave this''where everybody is equal but some are more than others''show. Arrogance and self awareness often go had in hand.
This research does nothing to make CEO'S realise that a viable business is a long term proposition and as such it needs to be nurtured not culled just for bonuses. Ceo's have a short contract terms and are only concerned with their bonuses. Staff on the other would stay longer should the job be ok. A staff member that knows their job and is committed because they love their job would pay returns in gold. Try telling that to a CEO an see what the response would be.
Easyjet went through a similar period until Ray W f***ed off. As he was under the same premise ''like it or leave'' and guess what people did just that. Middle of summer, cancelled flights, crews refusing to go into discretion, or anything to help the company.
The one thing that is not perhaps taught at MBA school is how to motivate and retain staff instead of a feudalist approach to numbers.
But in the meantime we can only be at each others throats on here whilst the wagon carries on.
When you have a one man airline show with an''we are all equal''mantra, the salary that is certain to go up is only his one. His message is clear, if you don't like it leave this''where everybody is equal but some are more than others''show. Arrogance and self awareness often go had in hand.
This research does nothing to make CEO'S realise that a viable business is a long term proposition and as such it needs to be nurtured not culled just for bonuses. Ceo's have a short contract terms and are only concerned with their bonuses. Staff on the other would stay longer should the job be ok. A staff member that knows their job and is committed because they love their job would pay returns in gold. Try telling that to a CEO an see what the response would be.
Easyjet went through a similar period until Ray W f***ed off. As he was under the same premise ''like it or leave'' and guess what people did just that. Middle of summer, cancelled flights, crews refusing to go into discretion, or anything to help the company.
The one thing that is not perhaps taught at MBA school is how to motivate and retain staff instead of a feudalist approach to numbers.
But in the meantime we can only be at each others throats on here whilst the wagon carries on.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Asylum
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would be interested to see what the inbound to Australia loads are. The general population in the states would not have heard of V Australia, so it stands to reason that currently V Oz would only be bringing back the passengers they took to LAX. I would assume that the first couple of flights out of LAX would be next to empty.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Home
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QF Drive,
people go to LA, people come home from LA, its simple. If people are going, they will comeback and most people travel the same carrier return as it works out cheapest.
Walked through the VA 777 today at the Avalon Airshow, quite impressive, and is a lot more comfortable than any 747-400. The VA business class doesnt compare with Qantas business, but there economy is far superior to that of Qantas. If anyone is thinking about going to LA, VA and Qantas prices are about the same $950-$1050, and i would choose VA anyday of the week.
people go to LA, people come home from LA, its simple. If people are going, they will comeback and most people travel the same carrier return as it works out cheapest.
Walked through the VA 777 today at the Avalon Airshow, quite impressive, and is a lot more comfortable than any 747-400. The VA business class doesnt compare with Qantas business, but there economy is far superior to that of Qantas. If anyone is thinking about going to LA, VA and Qantas prices are about the same $950-$1050, and i would choose VA anyday of the week.
Tobz,
I think the point he is making is most people go to LA for a week or longer due to the flight time. So in the first week to month the loads coming back will be less because as you say most people get return flights and so won't be coming back in the same numbers.
I think the point he is making is most people go to LA for a week or longer due to the flight time. So in the first week to month the loads coming back will be less because as you say most people get return flights and so won't be coming back in the same numbers.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Asylum
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its a mixture of both. For he first few weeks the loads will be lighter coming back as the punters have their time in the USA before returning.
What percentage of the loads are picked up with outbound US passengers on the LAX/SYD /LAX sectors ?
What percentage of the loads are picked up with outbound US passengers on the LAX/SYD /LAX sectors ?
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lord Howe
Age: 44
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Look it's a time thing. It will take time for people both here and the US to know about VA, after all QF have been around on this route for a long time. Given that ,VAs share should increase as a % of the route over time, and this is exactly what is slowly happening now.
The problem is, VA don't have the time! The recession, price war, and dwindling O/S market will be long and deep. BG said recently that now, is probably the worst time to be embarking on this sort of exercise.
How right he is!
How right he is!
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“I reckon it's a sad indictment on the industry. Do you disagree?”
There are many things that constitute a “sad indictment on the industry” but the perception that same needy pilots may have on their place on a non existent ladder is definitely not one of them.
There are many things that constitute a “sad indictment on the industry” but the perception that same needy pilots may have on their place on a non existent ladder is definitely not one of them.