REX EBA to be put to vote: no back pay
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REX EBA to be put to vote: no back pay
Let's break things down and put them simply:
The Company not offering back pay
The RexPC is not going to endorse the EBA that they put to vote!!!
The Company telling the RexPC either they put the un-negotiable offer to the pilot body for vote or they will reduce the offer/withdraw it!!!!
Things to consider prior to voting:
Current state of the economy --> Maybe consider voting yes for the 5x5x5% or the balance of 9x3x3% if the company had negotiated in good faith and offered back pay.
The company's threats to withdraw the un-negotiable offer and even REDUCE IT if not put to a vote--------> EBA Vote = NO (well done LKH you just put the nail in the coffin for my vote)
We all know that our Check and Training department will vote yes to this EBA offer as they have got what they want through training and checking increases. This makes it all the more important for us to consider what is on offer and vote NO.
"IF the pilots accept a substandard EBA again this time, then he will continue to offer less and less" (Apache)
The period we want back pay is a period when the company was booming, full loads etc and we were all working our rings off on days off and on leave days for them and they have the audacity to no offer back pay
The Company not offering back pay
The RexPC is not going to endorse the EBA that they put to vote!!!
The Company telling the RexPC either they put the un-negotiable offer to the pilot body for vote or they will reduce the offer/withdraw it!!!!
Things to consider prior to voting:
Current state of the economy --> Maybe consider voting yes for the 5x5x5% or the balance of 9x3x3% if the company had negotiated in good faith and offered back pay.
The company's threats to withdraw the un-negotiable offer and even REDUCE IT if not put to a vote--------> EBA Vote = NO (well done LKH you just put the nail in the coffin for my vote)
We all know that our Check and Training department will vote yes to this EBA offer as they have got what they want through training and checking increases. This makes it all the more important for us to consider what is on offer and vote NO.
"IF the pilots accept a substandard EBA again this time, then he will continue to offer less and less" (Apache)
The period we want back pay is a period when the company was booming, full loads etc and we were all working our rings off on days off and on leave days for them and they have the audacity to no offer back pay
Last edited by Curved Approach; 12th Feb 2009 at 04:21. Reason: additional text (quote added)
Looks as though QANTAS have lent their EBA negotiating team to Rex management.
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EBA- Ever Been Angry?
The vote to accept the REX management EBA offer is a vote to encourage blackmail of the worst kind. I don't know how some of these guys can sleep at night, but then when you occupy the moral low ground, it's usually not a problem! As a pilot group we usually have expectations of fairness,but in this case we are dealing with a cultural shift caused by the influence of someone with a different set of morals to our own. The answer? Don't encourage immoral behaviour in this instance....
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constructive comments
I couldn't agree more ladies and gents.
Let's try and keep the thread constructive and avoid waffling on AND be sure to back up your views with a NO vote.
It is imperative that we all vote to have our voices heard (unlike our flight attendants who have ended up with an EBA voted yes to by about a quarter of their numbers as so little of them voted!)
Let's try and keep the thread constructive and avoid waffling on AND be sure to back up your views with a NO vote.
It is imperative that we all vote to have our voices heard (unlike our flight attendants who have ended up with an EBA voted yes to by about a quarter of their numbers as so little of them voted!)
Last edited by Curved Approach; 13th Feb 2009 at 06:07.
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There can only be ONE answer...
"NO!"
Wonder if the FOs know that if they said 'Yes' to 5%, they will take a total of about <$7000 compounded before tax, over the next 3 years.....based on a starting base of $42,000.
Better to take nothing and hold your head up high, than let the whole team down and agree to being slapped in the face.....over, and over again
Wonder if the FOs know that if they said 'Yes' to 5%, they will take a total of about <$7000 compounded before tax, over the next 3 years.....based on a starting base of $42,000.
Better to take nothing and hold your head up high, than let the whole team down and agree to being slapped in the face.....over, and over again
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WTF?
Correct me if im wrong please gentlemen, but if there is no backpay, we are already over 6 months past the old agreement so ie half way through the first year.
So.... 5% / 2 = 2.5%
Therefore its more like 2.5 for the first year, then 5 x 5.
No thanks.
So.... 5% / 2 = 2.5%
Therefore its more like 2.5 for the first year, then 5 x 5.
No thanks.
Look.........
I don't want to rain on your parade(s), but the strident NOs etc really aren't doing you folks any favours!
Many of you don't come from a generation a 'long way ago' which got involved in a 'dispute' that shall remain nameless. HOWEVER.............if you were from that generation, then you'd realise that ther's some wisdom in the old saying 'DON'T BITE OFF YOU NOSE(s) TO SPITE YOUR FACE'.
The reality is that the general public couldn't/don't give a rat's ar5e about what you think, despite what woopwoop whatever and his idiot mate think after getting pissed in some pub in Nyngan.
Point is (and the ONLY points) the general public would see it, particularly those in rural Oz and who aren't working in a pub serving woopwoop whatever and his idiot grazier mate, who by the way IMHO should be BOTH out working................you REX pilots DO (still) have a job, you ARE (still) getting paid to do the job, so STOP F*CKING complaining!
READ aussie1234's post before trying to attack me (again) for pointing out the stupidity (reality??) of your ill-advised but persistent belief that the 'wage fairy' is going to come and sh1t in your bank accounts as you'd like...........it ain't going to happen!
So..............the simple answer to the assumption that Joe Public gives a bugger about you guysis .....NO, he/she doesn't!
Get over it.
I don't want to rain on your parade(s), but the strident NOs etc really aren't doing you folks any favours!
Many of you don't come from a generation a 'long way ago' which got involved in a 'dispute' that shall remain nameless. HOWEVER.............if you were from that generation, then you'd realise that ther's some wisdom in the old saying 'DON'T BITE OFF YOU NOSE(s) TO SPITE YOUR FACE'.
The reality is that the general public couldn't/don't give a rat's ar5e about what you think, despite what woopwoop whatever and his idiot mate think after getting pissed in some pub in Nyngan.
Point is (and the ONLY points) the general public would see it, particularly those in rural Oz and who aren't working in a pub serving woopwoop whatever and his idiot grazier mate, who by the way IMHO should be BOTH out working................you REX pilots DO (still) have a job, you ARE (still) getting paid to do the job, so STOP F*CKING complaining!
READ aussie1234's post before trying to attack me (again) for pointing out the stupidity (reality??) of your ill-advised but persistent belief that the 'wage fairy' is going to come and sh1t in your bank accounts as you'd like...........it ain't going to happen!
So..............the simple answer to the assumption that Joe Public gives a bugger about you guysis .....NO, he/she doesn't!
Get over it.
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SIUYA....
No one really gives a rats @rse what Joe Public thinks. This is about a fair days pay for a fair days work, in line with INDUSTRY STANDARD (that phrase ring any bells???).
It is all very well to say that "pilots wages made us go broke".... but if you do NOT pay the correct wage, then pilots WILL LEAVE for greener pastures, and the aircraft will not fly themselves. Again, this can be blamed on dodgy management!
No one has even mentioned the dispute of 2 decades ago, and to be fair, it has bugger all to do with these negotiations. REX pilots are just trying to ensure that they have a viable and rewarding future career with the airline. They can see that others WILL leave in droves, once the bigger airlines start recruiting again very shortly. the PILOTS have expressed concerns with management that other pilots WILL leave. it is the PILOT GROUP that seems to be most concerned about the rate of attrition due to INSUFFICIENT TERMS AND CONDITIONS.
And lets not fool ourselves that this is ONLY about backpay.
AND WHY HAS THE AFAP BEEN SO BLOODY QUIET DURING ALL THIS???????
No one really gives a rats @rse what Joe Public thinks. This is about a fair days pay for a fair days work, in line with INDUSTRY STANDARD (that phrase ring any bells???).
It is all very well to say that "pilots wages made us go broke".... but if you do NOT pay the correct wage, then pilots WILL LEAVE for greener pastures, and the aircraft will not fly themselves. Again, this can be blamed on dodgy management!
No one has even mentioned the dispute of 2 decades ago, and to be fair, it has bugger all to do with these negotiations. REX pilots are just trying to ensure that they have a viable and rewarding future career with the airline. They can see that others WILL leave in droves, once the bigger airlines start recruiting again very shortly. the PILOTS have expressed concerns with management that other pilots WILL leave. it is the PILOT GROUP that seems to be most concerned about the rate of attrition due to INSUFFICIENT TERMS AND CONDITIONS.
And lets not fool ourselves that this is ONLY about backpay.
AND WHY HAS THE AFAP BEEN SO BLOODY QUIET DURING ALL THIS???????
Apache..........
You said:
But according to IATA:
Someone's wrong, and I don't think it's IATA. So your inference that recovery seems to be imminent is a bit fanciful and far-fetched I think. Read JetA-OKs post for a dose of reality.
You also said:
Dumb@rse!
You said:
They can see that others WILL leave in droves, once the bigger airlines start recruiting again very shortly.
IATA December 2008:
Recession is now forecast for North America, Europe and Japan late this year and into 2009. The last major downturn in air traffic, driven by recession rather than terrorist attack, was in 1991 when global passenger traffic (RPKs) fell 2.6%. We now forecast that global passenger traffic will fall by 3% in 2009
Weakness in travel markets has lasted three years in previous recessions. We do not expect a return to traffic growth above 4% until 2011. Economic forecasts imply that airline traffic will remain below the previous trend over the medium-term, with passenger travel forecast to be 9% lower by 2016 than pre-crisis industry forecasts
It is clear that expectations prevailing during the summer for the growth of passenger and freight markets will be disappointed both this year and next. By 2010 we forecasts that the level of global passenger departures will be 10% lower than expected by the industry before the recent financial crisis. International freight tonnes are likely to be 13% lower than expected by 2010
Once recovery is solidly established by 2011 we forecast growth rates that are much closer to industry expectations.
Recession is now forecast for North America, Europe and Japan late this year and into 2009. The last major downturn in air traffic, driven by recession rather than terrorist attack, was in 1991 when global passenger traffic (RPKs) fell 2.6%. We now forecast that global passenger traffic will fall by 3% in 2009
Weakness in travel markets has lasted three years in previous recessions. We do not expect a return to traffic growth above 4% until 2011. Economic forecasts imply that airline traffic will remain below the previous trend over the medium-term, with passenger travel forecast to be 9% lower by 2016 than pre-crisis industry forecasts
It is clear that expectations prevailing during the summer for the growth of passenger and freight markets will be disappointed both this year and next. By 2010 we forecasts that the level of global passenger departures will be 10% lower than expected by the industry before the recent financial crisis. International freight tonnes are likely to be 13% lower than expected by 2010
Once recovery is solidly established by 2011 we forecast growth rates that are much closer to industry expectations.
You also said:
No one really gives a rats @rse what Joe Public thinks.
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SIUYA are you mates with LKH or JD or someone?
SIUYA: your comments are completely destructive in this thread. Some wisdom, there is more than some in this phrase; and it's exactly what LKH is doing, true Singaporean style.
and the phrase is cut off anyway. I and many others believe this company could be in an even stronger position if it wasn't for LKH as our Chairman. (He should be removed IMHO as impossible as that would be)
This is nothing about chasing fanciful wage increases beyond what is deserved from some wage fairy. If you actually read previous posts this is about negotiating (something LKH is not doing) for a fair EBA which is going to bring us closer to where we should be after previous wage/benefit cuts and freezes to make this company what it is today.
2011 is not that far away, we all know this industry goes in huge waves. And SIUYA (as you say you are not involved with REX) but if you spoke to the majority of the pilot body you would discover they are sick of having The Company cry poor every time the EBA expires for varying reasons.
We can only hope that this majority of pilots votes where there mouths are when our hard working RexPC EBA team puts a EBA to us to vote on which THEY ARE NOT GOING TO ENDORSE AS IT IS SUBSTANDARD!! And I can only dream that some of our check and trainers will also vote NO to stand by their fellow pilots both present and in the future of our airline.
then you'd realise that ther's some wisdom in the old saying 'DON'T BITE OFF YOU NOSE(s) TO SPITE YOUR FACE'.
your ill-advised but persistent belief that the 'wage fairy' is going to come and sh1t in your bank accounts as you'd like...........it ain't going to happen!
2011 is not that far away, we all know this industry goes in huge waves. And SIUYA (as you say you are not involved with REX) but if you spoke to the majority of the pilot body you would discover they are sick of having The Company cry poor every time the EBA expires for varying reasons.
We can only hope that this majority of pilots votes where there mouths are when our hard working RexPC EBA team puts a EBA to us to vote on which THEY ARE NOT GOING TO ENDORSE AS IT IS SUBSTANDARD!! And I can only dream that some of our check and trainers will also vote NO to stand by their fellow pilots both present and in the future of our airline.
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5% sounds like a great raise...? NO
Do not lose sight of why we have been offered 5%! REX could easily come out of this sounding like the good guy offering 5%. But the offer on the table was 3% or you can have 5% if you GIVE US BACK the profit share and share gift; LKH isnt going to give us anything without taking back.
We are 8 months past.... so in reality all that is left to go into your back pockets of the 5x5x5 (minus the 2% we are losing in profit share and share gift)
is 1% then 3% then 3%. (before tax in your pocket from the "wage fairy")
Just to make everyone aware historically the Commission will not award back pay. We can try (with our ever so strong and efficient AFAP representing us) for back pay in the Commission but unlikely. And this is what makes me so angry
The RexPC negotiates in good faith to be jerked around and put back and put back. Planned meetings postponed due to crew shortage so our PC members go and fly and earn $$$ for The Company; then to be slapped in the face by not giving back pay. Disgusting
Correct me if im wrong please gentlemen, but if there is no backpay, we are already over 6 months past the old agreement so ie half way through the first year.
So.... 5% / 2 = 2.5%
Therefore its more like 2.5 for the first year, then 5 x 5.
So.... 5% / 2 = 2.5%
Therefore its more like 2.5 for the first year, then 5 x 5.
is 1% then 3% then 3%. (before tax in your pocket from the "wage fairy")
Just to make everyone aware historically the Commission will not award back pay. We can try (with our ever so strong and efficient AFAP representing us) for back pay in the Commission but unlikely. And this is what makes me so angry
The RexPC negotiates in good faith to be jerked around and put back and put back. Planned meetings postponed due to crew shortage so our PC members go and fly and earn $$$ for The Company; then to be slapped in the face by not giving back pay. Disgusting
Last edited by Curved Approach; 17th Feb 2009 at 02:18. Reason: colour text
What an outright crock of sh!t.
If a business can't make money whilst rewarding their staff appropriately they don't deserve to be in business.
Go get a job flying for nothing if that's your attitude At least you'll have a job eh??
That's right i know many drivers up here that just want to go flying cause we love flying we haven't got our head so far up our arse that we think the world owes us something. If it pays the rent puts food on the table and i get to go flying i'm more than happy.
It's all about choice you can choose to stay and work at what management offer or leave and go somewhere else where other management are paying better it's all about choice. If your all so tough and wingeing about how put off you are about your pay how many flights have been disrupted because all of the crews have said "We're not flying!"
If a business can't make money whilst rewarding their staff appropriately they don't deserve to be in business.
Go get a job flying for nothing if that's your attitude
At least you'll have a job eh?? That's right i know many drivers up here that just want to go flying cause we love flying we haven't got our head so far up our arse that we think the world owes us something. If it pays the rent puts food on the table and i get to go flying i'm more than happy.
It's all about choice you can choose to stay and work at what management offer or leave and go somewhere else where other management are paying better it's all about choice. If your all so tough and wingeing about how put off you are about your pay how many flights have been disrupted because all of the crews have said "We're not flying!"
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Aussie,
that is oversimplifying it, and that is not fair.
I don't want to just be able to pay rent and eat... I want to be able to make a career out of flying, and be able to retire in 30-40 years and say " I have had a wonderful life, enjoyed my whole career, and I have a beautiful house, car, wife and well educated kids to show for my hard work". And that is getting less and less affordable when getting less money than a receptionist.
It is not JUST the money that the REX pilots are fighting for. It is the TERMS and CONDITIONS in total, along with a FAIR AND EQUITIBLE increase to bring them in line with other companies.
The fact that pilots get rung up on most of their days off, asked to work, and then made to feel like a low life because they won't, or won't extend for zero incentive is one of the reasons that pilots are jack of the company.
The 5 year fight to get a raincoat: The substandard uniforms that even homeless people refuse from St Vincent de Paul society: The lack of resources to properly do the job: the harrassment of pilots after an incident: the nit-picking of sim instructors: the verbal abuse from managers when you take an extra 100kg of fuel..... to name just a few.
THEN, when you do decide to leave for a better job, the company shows NO remorse over your decision, doesn't even want to know WHY you are leaving, and cries foul over the fact that even though you have given them 10 or so years of your life, you are being "poached" by another airline... whom YOU decided to apply to!!!!
This EBA %age increase is a double edged deal. IF you pay REX pilots enough money, a lot of them would stay a lot longer, as to leave would mean a wage DROP... and not a lot could afford to do that. You also save on training costs associated with training a replacement, and, heaven forbid, there be an accident due nil experience....well- what cost that?
Bluffing is fine. But when the other side calls your bluff, you want to be holding more than a pair of twos.
that is oversimplifying it, and that is not fair.
I don't want to just be able to pay rent and eat... I want to be able to make a career out of flying, and be able to retire in 30-40 years and say " I have had a wonderful life, enjoyed my whole career, and I have a beautiful house, car, wife and well educated kids to show for my hard work". And that is getting less and less affordable when getting less money than a receptionist.
It is not JUST the money that the REX pilots are fighting for. It is the TERMS and CONDITIONS in total, along with a FAIR AND EQUITIBLE increase to bring them in line with other companies.
The fact that pilots get rung up on most of their days off, asked to work, and then made to feel like a low life because they won't, or won't extend for zero incentive is one of the reasons that pilots are jack of the company.
The 5 year fight to get a raincoat: The substandard uniforms that even homeless people refuse from St Vincent de Paul society: The lack of resources to properly do the job: the harrassment of pilots after an incident: the nit-picking of sim instructors: the verbal abuse from managers when you take an extra 100kg of fuel..... to name just a few.
THEN, when you do decide to leave for a better job, the company shows NO remorse over your decision, doesn't even want to know WHY you are leaving, and cries foul over the fact that even though you have given them 10 or so years of your life, you are being "poached" by another airline... whom YOU decided to apply to!!!!
This EBA %age increase is a double edged deal. IF you pay REX pilots enough money, a lot of them would stay a lot longer, as to leave would mean a wage DROP... and not a lot could afford to do that. You also save on training costs associated with training a replacement, and, heaven forbid, there be an accident due nil experience....well- what cost that?
Bluffing is fine. But when the other side calls your bluff, you want to be holding more than a pair of twos.