AIPA or AFAP FOR JETSTAR
Keg,
It would have been possible for the self appointed one to be at the SSA EBA table had he any mandate to do so,and clearly he does not.As for one association for all professional pilots in Australia,it will happen eventually and we will all be the better for it but when is the $64 question.Cheers.
It would have been possible for the self appointed one to be at the SSA EBA table had he any mandate to do so,and clearly he does not.As for one association for all professional pilots in Australia,it will happen eventually and we will all be the better for it but when is the $64 question.Cheers.
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Keg -
AIPA has attempted to thwart JQ at every stage as it expanded. And you wonder why some of us are somewhat skeptical about your organisation and some of the "luminaries" running it.
Examples have been well documented and again repeated in this thread.
The AIPA has created this situation out of its' own selfishness and while I support the principal idea of a "universal" union, now is NOT the time to jump into bed with people who may well have agendas that could have negative implications for JQ pilots.
As unpalatable as the AFAP may seem, it is the lesser of 2 evils in this current environment.
AIPA has attempted to thwart JQ at every stage as it expanded. And you wonder why some of us are somewhat skeptical about your organisation and some of the "luminaries" running it.
Examples have been well documented and again repeated in this thread.
The AIPA has created this situation out of its' own selfishness and while I support the principal idea of a "universal" union, now is NOT the time to jump into bed with people who may well have agendas that could have negative implications for JQ pilots.
As unpalatable as the AFAP may seem, it is the lesser of 2 evils in this current environment.
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Relevance?
Globalisation - sooner rather than later is the big game in town. AIPA, representing 2500 QANTAS pilots will be the only pilot group with any relevance if and when Qantas becomes part of a larger aviation community. JQ guys and girls have a choice. Remain on the fringe or be part of next major evolution in our industry. AFAP or AIPA? Doesn't sound too difficult to me.
Nunc est bibendum
Led, you and I have had this discussion before. The stated stance of AIPA is that J* flying is done by J* crews and they get first look in at promotion on J* aircraft. All QF crew are subordinate in seniority until we get to the 7:20 numbers and then we interleave.
In essence it's an extension of the 'Y' seniority that came in when QF and TN 'merged'. A pilots had first access to promotions on their fleet and after that it was Q pilots in seniority. Same, same with J*.
In essence it's an extension of the 'Y' seniority that came in when QF and TN 'merged'. A pilots had first access to promotions on their fleet and after that it was Q pilots in seniority. Same, same with J*.
Keg,
I was in the room (Graphic Arts Club Mascot) a few years ago to listen to the then AIPA President (RH) address the assembled regional pilots on how life would be under AIPA.The most poignant statement made IMHO was in regard to seniority that being that AIPA would decide who flew what and that decision would be based on what was best for the whole "group".In the following years I have attended other AIPA briefings where this has been reiterated (under the present regime).This is what J* pilots will be burdened with if AIPA gets in the door.Do you really think they will let J* get all those 78's??
I was in the room (Graphic Arts Club Mascot) a few years ago to listen to the then AIPA President (RH) address the assembled regional pilots on how life would be under AIPA.The most poignant statement made IMHO was in regard to seniority that being that AIPA would decide who flew what and that decision would be based on what was best for the whole "group".In the following years I have attended other AIPA briefings where this has been reiterated (under the present regime).This is what J* pilots will be burdened with if AIPA gets in the door.Do you really think they will let J* get all those 78's??
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WFD,
This is not about the altruistic ideals of a "brotherhood" union covering all and sundry, as admirable as it may seem.
AIPA is not in this business. it is only in the business of protecting its QF mainline membership and their jobs.
Seniority and "Y" lists are just a sideline and a distraction compared to the main subject of job security should Qantas* in it's infinite wisdom* decide to (for example) transfer some of the A380's or extra 787's to Jetstar and have them operated by Jetstar pilots under reduced terms and conditions (cf QF award).
Jetstar pilots would be left trampled in the dust as AIPA scrambles to look after redundant QF pilots.
Keg and others may say this is not possible, but no one thought Lehman Brothers Bank would go under either.
I agree the AFAP does have dirty laundry dating back to the late 80's and is very problematic in its' ability to effectively represent pilots at the same level as AIPA does with Qantas.
it's such a pity we don't have the desire, numbers or resources to have an independent organisation such as BALPA.
Have a look at the structure of BALPA in this link:
Balpa
It works.
(* Some may well think that the words "Qantas" and "wisdom" are mutually exclusive)
This is not about the altruistic ideals of a "brotherhood" union covering all and sundry, as admirable as it may seem.
AIPA is not in this business. it is only in the business of protecting its QF mainline membership and their jobs.
Seniority and "Y" lists are just a sideline and a distraction compared to the main subject of job security should Qantas* in it's infinite wisdom* decide to (for example) transfer some of the A380's or extra 787's to Jetstar and have them operated by Jetstar pilots under reduced terms and conditions (cf QF award).
Jetstar pilots would be left trampled in the dust as AIPA scrambles to look after redundant QF pilots.
Keg and others may say this is not possible, but no one thought Lehman Brothers Bank would go under either.
I agree the AFAP does have dirty laundry dating back to the late 80's and is very problematic in its' ability to effectively represent pilots at the same level as AIPA does with Qantas.
it's such a pity we don't have the desire, numbers or resources to have an independent organisation such as BALPA.
Have a look at the structure of BALPA in this link:
Balpa
It works.
(* Some may well think that the words "Qantas" and "wisdom" are mutually exclusive)
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This is what J* pilots will be burdened with if AIPA gets in the door.Do you really think they will let J* get all those 78's??
now is NOT the time to jump into bed with people who may well have agendas that could have negative implications for JQ pilots.
To the real Jetstar pilots, you have every right to be suspicious of AIPA. But rather than sticking your heads in the sand and hoping the big bad AIPA men go away, wouldn't it be better to
- engage in meaningful discussions with AIPA
- get advice from your legal representation
- have an agreement drawn up that is 100% bulletproof
- if you're still not happy - walk away
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1. I believe Keg is genuine in his position regarding JQ pilots and AIPA. Unfortunately, I also believe he is part of a minority of AIPA members.
2. AFAP is not perfect, far from it. But they have stable leadership and appear to adopt a realistic approach to dealing with pilots and management. AIPA seem intent on political infighting and legal stouches with QF. AJ will not treat them any differently to GD with their current leadership.
3 It would appear from the latest longhaul EBA fiasco that 2/3 of the AIPA committee (voted in favour of failed EBA) are out of touch with 76% (against) of Long haul pilots, how on earth then can JQ pilots expect a QF longhaul dominated com to be in touch with issues relating to a predominantly short haul Low cost airline?
AIPA have some wonderful attributes, and if I were a QF pilot I would wholeheartedly agree that they serve their members well (a good thing as their members have no other choice!).
However, I am not convinced that that the same levels of service can or would extend to JQ pilots. There is a conflict of interest here which AIPA simply cannot get around.
Better the devil I know.
2. AFAP is not perfect, far from it. But they have stable leadership and appear to adopt a realistic approach to dealing with pilots and management. AIPA seem intent on political infighting and legal stouches with QF. AJ will not treat them any differently to GD with their current leadership.
3 It would appear from the latest longhaul EBA fiasco that 2/3 of the AIPA committee (voted in favour of failed EBA) are out of touch with 76% (against) of Long haul pilots, how on earth then can JQ pilots expect a QF longhaul dominated com to be in touch with issues relating to a predominantly short haul Low cost airline?
AIPA have some wonderful attributes, and if I were a QF pilot I would wholeheartedly agree that they serve their members well (a good thing as their members have no other choice!).
However, I am not convinced that that the same levels of service can or would extend to JQ pilots. There is a conflict of interest here which AIPA simply cannot get around.
Better the devil I know.
Nunc est bibendum
JJW, I'm not amongst the minority at all. Most line drivers feel the same way. I've seen enough in the various insights over the last couple of years to believe that the current leadership views it the same way- once you cut through the usual argey bargey. That said, my personal feeling is that we're very close to a new President. Much more moderate and a bloke that I know 100% backs the unity of the pilot group and appropriately representing the J* and regional pilots.
A couple of other points.
1. Your comments about the COM. A number of COM members who put the EBA to the vote actually voted 'no'. With the mandate from the crew they are now in a far better position to go back and bargain with the company rather than just send the negotiating team back from the COM unsure of whether they had rank and file support. It should be noted that a number of those who voted to give the membership it's vote on EBA8 changed the wording from the AIPA COM 'recommending' to just 'acknowledging' the EBA offer before passing it on. Of course the President supported it but a number of those who said 'yes' on COM said 'no' in the final ballot.
2. My understanding of the proposed working structure is that whilst there would be J* seats at the AIPA COM, it would still be up to the J* COM members to recommend any proposed J* EBA to the J* pilot group. QF COM members would not be able to veto that with the strength of numbers.
Led, I'd be very surprised if QF decided to make crew redundant in order to send aircraft to J*. The redundancy package is generally 4-6 weeks per year worked. Given that under our EBA redundancy is offered before it's made compulsory in a 'last on, first off' type deal I suspect that we'd have a number of very senior crew with 30-40 years experience deciding that they may just like the three years pay on offer to go (and not forgetting the generous tax advantages of redundancy and the tax free super either). Then QF has the ongoing costs of promotion and type transfers to replace those crew. All this to save about $300K per airframe in pay terms? I don't think so. Sure, we can use your Lehman's analogy. It applies equally to the J* international operation. I bet if that happens the J* crew will be desperate to take up the 7:20 slots set aside for them and won't mind being a part of AIPA then.
PS: The BALPA type set up is what is proposed for any coverage of J* and regional crew. They still have their own COM but they have the support of the wider organisation and other pilot bodies.
A couple of other points.
1. Your comments about the COM. A number of COM members who put the EBA to the vote actually voted 'no'. With the mandate from the crew they are now in a far better position to go back and bargain with the company rather than just send the negotiating team back from the COM unsure of whether they had rank and file support. It should be noted that a number of those who voted to give the membership it's vote on EBA8 changed the wording from the AIPA COM 'recommending' to just 'acknowledging' the EBA offer before passing it on. Of course the President supported it but a number of those who said 'yes' on COM said 'no' in the final ballot.
2. My understanding of the proposed working structure is that whilst there would be J* seats at the AIPA COM, it would still be up to the J* COM members to recommend any proposed J* EBA to the J* pilot group. QF COM members would not be able to veto that with the strength of numbers.
Led, I'd be very surprised if QF decided to make crew redundant in order to send aircraft to J*. The redundancy package is generally 4-6 weeks per year worked. Given that under our EBA redundancy is offered before it's made compulsory in a 'last on, first off' type deal I suspect that we'd have a number of very senior crew with 30-40 years experience deciding that they may just like the three years pay on offer to go (and not forgetting the generous tax advantages of redundancy and the tax free super either). Then QF has the ongoing costs of promotion and type transfers to replace those crew. All this to save about $300K per airframe in pay terms? I don't think so. Sure, we can use your Lehman's analogy. It applies equally to the J* international operation. I bet if that happens the J* crew will be desperate to take up the 7:20 slots set aside for them and won't mind being a part of AIPA then.
PS: The BALPA type set up is what is proposed for any coverage of J* and regional crew. They still have their own COM but they have the support of the wider organisation and other pilot bodies.
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JJW and others.
Firstly, I have known Keg for a long time and you won't find a more genuine guy.
Back on thread. What could happen over the next few years? It is an interesting question. One thing I do know is that Qantas will still be here and I can only hope that the JQ guys and girls pray every night for that to be so. Why? Because what is JQ? It is nothing other than another startup airline, nothing different to Compass Mk l/ll/lll, etc EXCEPT that it is associated with Qantas - "A Qantas Group Airline". To put it another way. Is there a single JQ employee that really believes that JQ would be here today without the support of Qantas? As I have said before, strangle the mother and the breast milk will dry up very quickly.
Closer to topic. Where do you think the Qantas group is going? Hands up if you think that Qantas will become a subsidiary of Jetstar? GD might have wanted you to think that but LC seems a little more circumspect. According to GD, globalisation is just around the corner. Who do you think AA/BA/SQ etc are going to talk to when they start putting deals together? Who do you think ALPA, SPA, BALPA are going to negotiate with when/if Qantas merges into a mega carrier? AFAP or AIPA? Interesting question. I wouldn't like to be trying to get on board after the horse has bolted. Would you?
AIPA has had a tough few years. GD and assoc made it a mission to undermine AIPA however, the organisation has survived. The chairs are being reshuffled in QF and I suspect there will be a reshuffle at AIPA as well. AIPA is not perfect but it is the main player at Qantas. You guys and girls can join the team or risk becoming entirely irrelevant. I don't think you have to be a brain surgeon to work this one out.
Firstly, I have known Keg for a long time and you won't find a more genuine guy.
Back on thread. What could happen over the next few years? It is an interesting question. One thing I do know is that Qantas will still be here and I can only hope that the JQ guys and girls pray every night for that to be so. Why? Because what is JQ? It is nothing other than another startup airline, nothing different to Compass Mk l/ll/lll, etc EXCEPT that it is associated with Qantas - "A Qantas Group Airline". To put it another way. Is there a single JQ employee that really believes that JQ would be here today without the support of Qantas? As I have said before, strangle the mother and the breast milk will dry up very quickly.
Closer to topic. Where do you think the Qantas group is going? Hands up if you think that Qantas will become a subsidiary of Jetstar? GD might have wanted you to think that but LC seems a little more circumspect. According to GD, globalisation is just around the corner. Who do you think AA/BA/SQ etc are going to talk to when they start putting deals together? Who do you think ALPA, SPA, BALPA are going to negotiate with when/if Qantas merges into a mega carrier? AFAP or AIPA? Interesting question. I wouldn't like to be trying to get on board after the horse has bolted. Would you?
AIPA has had a tough few years. GD and assoc made it a mission to undermine AIPA however, the organisation has survived. The chairs are being reshuffled in QF and I suspect there will be a reshuffle at AIPA as well. AIPA is not perfect but it is the main player at Qantas. You guys and girls can join the team or risk becoming entirely irrelevant. I don't think you have to be a brain surgeon to work this one out.
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WTF - I never said Keg was not genuine, quite the contrary. I merely said I believe he is in the minority.
So JQ pilots MUST join AIPA or ELSE eh! Yes I see the stick, just not the carrot. Perhaps you are part of the majority I am referring to, just masquerading as otherwise.
Keg - Most crew is a strong statement, can you back that up? I hear otherwise, however I will stop short of claiming it as anymore than anecdoetal.
Your point 1 - Sorry, a cop out. They voted YES so the crew could vote no...... What happened to leadership from the Com? Aren't these the people who are 'on the inside'? Are they not your 'representatives'? You say some voted YES so they could find out what the pilots thought, doesn't it appear that was obvious BEFORE the vote, the pilots were never asked... Anyway, your EBA is not my business, however, if you want to inflict your Committe on me, that is. BTW I do hope that BJ becomes Pres as I agree he would be a vast improvement. But lets deal with the known for now.
Your point 2 - Agreed. There would be no other way to do it. However, are you saying that outside of contractual issues, AIPA has never made any calls on behalf of the entire membership? Court cases, representations in Canberra, media conferences etc. any of these ring a bell?
At the end of the day the facts are:
So JQ pilots MUST join AIPA or ELSE eh! Yes I see the stick, just not the carrot. Perhaps you are part of the majority I am referring to, just masquerading as otherwise.
Keg - Most crew is a strong statement, can you back that up? I hear otherwise, however I will stop short of claiming it as anymore than anecdoetal.
Your point 1 - Sorry, a cop out. They voted YES so the crew could vote no...... What happened to leadership from the Com? Aren't these the people who are 'on the inside'? Are they not your 'representatives'? You say some voted YES so they could find out what the pilots thought, doesn't it appear that was obvious BEFORE the vote, the pilots were never asked... Anyway, your EBA is not my business, however, if you want to inflict your Committe on me, that is. BTW I do hope that BJ becomes Pres as I agree he would be a vast improvement. But lets deal with the known for now.
Your point 2 - Agreed. There would be no other way to do it. However, are you saying that outside of contractual issues, AIPA has never made any calls on behalf of the entire membership? Court cases, representations in Canberra, media conferences etc. any of these ring a bell?
At the end of the day the facts are:
- AIPA, as a democratic organisation will represent the majority of its membership.
- The majority of AIPA members are Qantas Mainline pilots.
- The majority of the AIPA com are Qantas Mainline pilots
- ALL AIPA presidents of recent times have been 747 - 400 Captains
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Keg,
Your continued reference to
really does show how little you know/understand the MOU.
There are 150 J* pilots that may be able to utilise this option out of 508 total.
You aren't helping your case with this.
Your continued reference to
the 7:20 slots set aside for them
There are 150 J* pilots that may be able to utilise this option out of 508 total.
You aren't helping your case with this.
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JJW.
There is no stick. I really don't care if JQ pilots join AIPA or not. I say that for a very genuine reason. If JQ pilots do join AIPA, they will run there own show. I know that because I would not expect any JQ pilots to join AIPA unless that was the case. Would you? Now if they do join AIPA and do run there own show, then that is fine and has little if any effect on myself or colleagues. Hence, I don't really care. What I am really trying to say is that to remain relevant in a bigger picture will be almost impossible from the sidelines and that is where you are destined to be if you are outside AIPA. Do the recent attacks on AIPA make more sense?
There is no stick. I really don't care if JQ pilots join AIPA or not. I say that for a very genuine reason. If JQ pilots do join AIPA, they will run there own show. I know that because I would not expect any JQ pilots to join AIPA unless that was the case. Would you? Now if they do join AIPA and do run there own show, then that is fine and has little if any effect on myself or colleagues. Hence, I don't really care. What I am really trying to say is that to remain relevant in a bigger picture will be almost impossible from the sidelines and that is where you are destined to be if you are outside AIPA. Do the recent attacks on AIPA make more sense?
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Hey dungheap,
With sentiments like yours it is no wonder the division between the Qf and Jq pilot groups becomes wider and wider.
Your argument that Jetstar is nothing without Qantas mothership is irrelevant to any argument.
They are here, you are here.
Do something that will instill confidence in the other group to work together rather than telling them they are irrelevant because I can guarantee they ain't gonna lay down and play dead so you can be happy.
You obviously feel your position is threatened by Jetstars pilots.
Now stop frothing at the mouth and fling your dung.
With sentiments like yours it is no wonder the division between the Qf and Jq pilot groups becomes wider and wider.
Your argument that Jetstar is nothing without Qantas mothership is irrelevant to any argument.
They are here, you are here.
Do something that will instill confidence in the other group to work together rather than telling them they are irrelevant because I can guarantee they ain't gonna lay down and play dead so you can be happy.
You obviously feel your position is threatened by Jetstars pilots.
Now stop frothing at the mouth and fling your dung.
Nunc est bibendum
JJW, I've met three QF pilots who have said 'screw J* pilots'. Every other QF driver I've spoken to has held a similar position to mine. Sure it's anecdotal and I'm not claiming that those three are the only three in existence. It is however my experience that the overwhelming majority of those I come into contact with hold virtually the same view I do about J*.
Tester, if QF fails. J* too is gone. Our futures are inexorably linked whether you like it or not. With a common future we should be looking at a common voice. So you can continue to look for any/all of the minutest of examples that confirm your distrust of mainline crew (and continue ignore the statements from people like me while you're at it) but we all know that confirmation bias is not a good thing on the flight deck and probably not a good thing in the remainder of life also. Choice is yours.
Sad though that we can't even agree to disagree without getting into the name calling and insults.
Tester, if QF fails. J* too is gone. Our futures are inexorably linked whether you like it or not. With a common future we should be looking at a common voice. So you can continue to look for any/all of the minutest of examples that confirm your distrust of mainline crew (and continue ignore the statements from people like me while you're at it) but we all know that confirmation bias is not a good thing on the flight deck and probably not a good thing in the remainder of life also. Choice is yours.
Sad though that we can't even agree to disagree without getting into the name calling and insults.
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Tester. Are you Genex's little brother? Your right. The gap widens. Every time a d#@k h^#d like you opens there trap, you drive yourselves further away from the big game. You just don't get it. No Qantas Pilot cares if you join AIPA or not. But right now, AIPA is Qantas Pilots. When ABC airlines comes looking for a partner, they will want to talk to the association representing Qantas Pilots. Do you think you will be heard from the office down the road? Start broadcasting on guard tester, its your only chance of rescue.
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Like most industrial-representation issues, this one is;
(a) liable to inflame sensitivities on both sides,
(b) full of pros and cons and, thus, must be looked at from a 'big picture' view point,
(c) vital to the future of BOTH pilot groups, and
(d) if not settled by an overwhelming majority decision, is likely to result in deep divisions for a very long time (wouldn't management be pleased?).
For those of you who think that AIPA haven't changed their position on JQ (and, probably, the other subsidiaries), consider this; whatever you might say about AIPA and the COM, they are generally comprised of intelligent, level-headed members. To think otherwise would be to accept that the QF selection process allows mostly other-minded individuals to slip through the rigorous system.
When JQ was first mooted, it was not unreasonable for the AIPA COM (and let me say here, that I'm not at mainline) to bluster about who would fly what, and to campaign that AIPAs mainline majority should get most if not all of the slots. Management had the final say (as they will about which Group element will get what equipment).
Four years on, and it's become obvious to any blind freddie that JQ is now a long-term stand-alone element that has the propensity to grow to a vast size in its own right.
AIPA and the majority of QF mainline pilots know this, and have altered their standing and strategy as a result - exactly as I would want a representative body to be able to change with a change in industrial circumstances. They now see that it is vital that AIPA hold on to the representation of all Group pilots; not to benefit mainline pilots to the detriment of JQ pilots, but to benefit and safeguard conditions/opportunities for all pilots within the Group! I'm sure that it would be seen as advantageous if there could be a permanent 'extention' of the MOU set-up, which would effectively result in a Group bidding system. And how good would that be? Outstanding! The only thing that pilots love above good pay and nice planes to fly, is the ability to choose their career path.
Having AIPA represent us would not, I'm sure, mean that - if chosen as the representative body for JQ pilots (and I do so hope and pray that they do) - they would chase windmills in trying to get JQ parody with mainline, but that they have a powerful influence on ensuring that conditions are never eroded, but instead are improved over time.
AFAP are so obviously too close to management that, taking recent minor issues as an example, they would be hard-pressed to instil any confidence in the pilot group that they could do the same as AIPA have proven they're capable of doing (the recent issues I refer to were handled efficiently, quickly and successfully by AIPA on behalf of its members).
Where was the AFAP?????? I certainly saw and heard nothing!
To those colleagues at JQ who suspect AIPAs intentions, I say this; forget the politics of years ago, look at recent track records of both suitors, and be very careful about which way you vote.
I can see this promising company of ours go down the same industrial path towards the nightmare that Air New Zealand pilots found themselves in when they were represented by two or three unions. Completely splintered with self-serving interests at a huge advantage over the moderates.
Lets not go there!
(a) liable to inflame sensitivities on both sides,
(b) full of pros and cons and, thus, must be looked at from a 'big picture' view point,
(c) vital to the future of BOTH pilot groups, and
(d) if not settled by an overwhelming majority decision, is likely to result in deep divisions for a very long time (wouldn't management be pleased?).
For those of you who think that AIPA haven't changed their position on JQ (and, probably, the other subsidiaries), consider this; whatever you might say about AIPA and the COM, they are generally comprised of intelligent, level-headed members. To think otherwise would be to accept that the QF selection process allows mostly other-minded individuals to slip through the rigorous system.
When JQ was first mooted, it was not unreasonable for the AIPA COM (and let me say here, that I'm not at mainline) to bluster about who would fly what, and to campaign that AIPAs mainline majority should get most if not all of the slots. Management had the final say (as they will about which Group element will get what equipment).
Four years on, and it's become obvious to any blind freddie that JQ is now a long-term stand-alone element that has the propensity to grow to a vast size in its own right.
AIPA and the majority of QF mainline pilots know this, and have altered their standing and strategy as a result - exactly as I would want a representative body to be able to change with a change in industrial circumstances. They now see that it is vital that AIPA hold on to the representation of all Group pilots; not to benefit mainline pilots to the detriment of JQ pilots, but to benefit and safeguard conditions/opportunities for all pilots within the Group! I'm sure that it would be seen as advantageous if there could be a permanent 'extention' of the MOU set-up, which would effectively result in a Group bidding system. And how good would that be? Outstanding! The only thing that pilots love above good pay and nice planes to fly, is the ability to choose their career path.
Having AIPA represent us would not, I'm sure, mean that - if chosen as the representative body for JQ pilots (and I do so hope and pray that they do) - they would chase windmills in trying to get JQ parody with mainline, but that they have a powerful influence on ensuring that conditions are never eroded, but instead are improved over time.
AFAP are so obviously too close to management that, taking recent minor issues as an example, they would be hard-pressed to instil any confidence in the pilot group that they could do the same as AIPA have proven they're capable of doing (the recent issues I refer to were handled efficiently, quickly and successfully by AIPA on behalf of its members).
Where was the AFAP?????? I certainly saw and heard nothing!
To those colleagues at JQ who suspect AIPAs intentions, I say this; forget the politics of years ago, look at recent track records of both suitors, and be very careful about which way you vote.
I can see this promising company of ours go down the same industrial path towards the nightmare that Air New Zealand pilots found themselves in when they were represented by two or three unions. Completely splintered with self-serving interests at a huge advantage over the moderates.
Lets not go there!
What a refreshingly sensible post from RAD_ALT.
The fear mongering regarding joining AIPA is madness. To think that if JQ pilots joined AIPA that AIPA would suddenly have the power to direct aircraft towards mainline and away from JQ is utterly ridiculous.
Firstly, no union has any power to direct where the QF Group places A/C, despite what they may wish.
Secondly, even if AIPA did have this power surely they would be more inclined use it if JQ pilots were covered by a separate union.
If they choose to join AIPA, Jetstar pilots will have their representatives that look after their issues, just as short haul have their reps, 'A' pilots have their reps and the Flight Engineers have their reps (for now). This way no group of members, no matter how small, is ignored. The strength comes from knowing the company can't play one group off against the other.
Finally, if one looks only at the fact that the company is fighting tooth and nail to stop AIPA representing all Qantas Group pilots then it can only mean that we would all be stronger if this were to occur.
The fear mongering regarding joining AIPA is madness. To think that if JQ pilots joined AIPA that AIPA would suddenly have the power to direct aircraft towards mainline and away from JQ is utterly ridiculous.
Firstly, no union has any power to direct where the QF Group places A/C, despite what they may wish.
Secondly, even if AIPA did have this power surely they would be more inclined use it if JQ pilots were covered by a separate union.
If they choose to join AIPA, Jetstar pilots will have their representatives that look after their issues, just as short haul have their reps, 'A' pilots have their reps and the Flight Engineers have their reps (for now). This way no group of members, no matter how small, is ignored. The strength comes from knowing the company can't play one group off against the other.
Finally, if one looks only at the fact that the company is fighting tooth and nail to stop AIPA representing all Qantas Group pilots then it can only mean that we would all be stronger if this were to occur.