Joyce the new CEO of Qantas
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Let me ask you that question Genex.
Will you take industrial action to change the JQ EBA?
You see Genex, in all your wisdom you fail to recognise that AIPA or any other industrial body, is not a living being per say but a collective voice of its MEMBERS.
So how is it then that AIPA can call for industrial action when it does not represent JQ pilots as members?
How does AIPA gain a seat at the JQ negotiating table when the very people it seeks to represent turn a blind eye?
Mate you cant have it both ways.
As for steak knives the only one you need to worry about is the one your management is willing to put in your back.
Will you take industrial action to change the JQ EBA?
You see Genex, in all your wisdom you fail to recognise that AIPA or any other industrial body, is not a living being per say but a collective voice of its MEMBERS.
So how is it then that AIPA can call for industrial action when it does not represent JQ pilots as members?
How does AIPA gain a seat at the JQ negotiating table when the very people it seeks to represent turn a blind eye?
Mate you cant have it both ways.
As for steak knives the only one you need to worry about is the one your management is willing to put in your back.
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Or....will AIPA actually support the new CEO of the whole Qantas Group (of which AIPA pilots represent less than 7% of the employees)?
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ElPerro, very well put
I was thinking along the same lines myself. It does go to show that some on here really have no idea.
Yes guys, operational crew make up a big part of any airline however it takes many to make it happen. Dont think for one moment you are the only ones at the sharp end.
Yes guys, operational crew make up a big part of any airline however it takes many to make it happen. Dont think for one moment you are the only ones at the sharp end.
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Tenretni
I am well aware that a union is the collective voice of its members. Have been a union member for a very long time.... and at times such as 1989 and the 19 years following, that was at no small cost....I'm not a JQ pilot but if I was I'd be still bruised from the battering and patronizing that the collective voce of QF pilots (via AIPA) has been giving their "lesser" brothers in JQ for years.
I would have thought that the simplest way of AIPA getting back in the saddle of truly wanting to represent all QF drivers is for AIPA to mount a "shock and awe" wildcat campaign to get a scope clause in the QF EBA(s) so all flying was covered by the one protected datal (from date of first joining a QF Group airline, past or present) seniority list...and this would include QantasLink and JQ as well. A 72 hour strike that grounded every jet with a Rat on its tail would be a good start to see the collective will of AIPA at work. If you were united as one then there'd be no sanctions.
Or....do nothing....except slowly work with the AFAP to build a decent single union, starting with tech and safety issues and let it happen gently, not as an overt AIPA grab for the 787 jobs and the destruction of JQ. What you need to see is that sensible pilots are able to balance and trade off lifestyle, future opportunities, pay, equipment and command opportunities. QFLink and JQ offer alternatives to the legacy model. Why force the dull greyness of uniformity on all...especially when "all" means a bunch of pilots no AIPA member would invite home to dinner?
If in addition to joining with the AFAP at a tech and safety level....and here we return to the thread....the Chairman of AIPA could ask the incoming CEO "how can the Qantas pilots best support new jobs, more promotions, more destinations and profitability?"....then you could get somewhere. That would be an act of some statesmanship. Or there's the alternative.........
I am well aware that a union is the collective voice of its members. Have been a union member for a very long time.... and at times such as 1989 and the 19 years following, that was at no small cost....I'm not a JQ pilot but if I was I'd be still bruised from the battering and patronizing that the collective voce of QF pilots (via AIPA) has been giving their "lesser" brothers in JQ for years.
I would have thought that the simplest way of AIPA getting back in the saddle of truly wanting to represent all QF drivers is for AIPA to mount a "shock and awe" wildcat campaign to get a scope clause in the QF EBA(s) so all flying was covered by the one protected datal (from date of first joining a QF Group airline, past or present) seniority list...and this would include QantasLink and JQ as well. A 72 hour strike that grounded every jet with a Rat on its tail would be a good start to see the collective will of AIPA at work. If you were united as one then there'd be no sanctions.
Or....do nothing....except slowly work with the AFAP to build a decent single union, starting with tech and safety issues and let it happen gently, not as an overt AIPA grab for the 787 jobs and the destruction of JQ. What you need to see is that sensible pilots are able to balance and trade off lifestyle, future opportunities, pay, equipment and command opportunities. QFLink and JQ offer alternatives to the legacy model. Why force the dull greyness of uniformity on all...especially when "all" means a bunch of pilots no AIPA member would invite home to dinner?
If in addition to joining with the AFAP at a tech and safety level....and here we return to the thread....the Chairman of AIPA could ask the incoming CEO "how can the Qantas pilots best support new jobs, more promotions, more destinations and profitability?"....then you could get somewhere. That would be an act of some statesmanship. Or there's the alternative.........
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All these motherhood statements about the inclusive nature of the AIPA and how rosy things would be under the one umbrella is just a smokescreen.
With QF mainline having 4 times the number of pilots as JQ, if the sh!t hits the fan, where would a vote by AIPA fall. Certainly not on the side of the JQ pilots.
Comments in the courts (Canberra) several years ago by the AIPA reflect the true, and as Genex says, the "patronizing" attitude of some of the AIPA executive and members - they despise Jetstar and everything it does. They see JQ pilots as pariahs taking their flying.
Any move to get JQ pilots under AIPA coverage is a HUGE mistake. I wonder if KEG would have the same attitude if he was in Jetstar looking at things from different coloured glasses?
The AFAP is not the perfect answer, but in the current industrial climate, a more preferable option for JQ pilots.
Membership of AIPA and representation of J* pilots means that we'd be working together for the future benefit of both pilot groups.....
Comments in the courts (Canberra) several years ago by the AIPA reflect the true, and as Genex says, the "patronizing" attitude of some of the AIPA executive and members - they despise Jetstar and everything it does. They see JQ pilots as pariahs taking their flying.
Any move to get JQ pilots under AIPA coverage is a HUGE mistake. I wonder if KEG would have the same attitude if he was in Jetstar looking at things from different coloured glasses?
The AFAP is not the perfect answer, but in the current industrial climate, a more preferable option for JQ pilots.
Nunc est bibendum
Led, I've been banging on about pilot unity for much longer than J* has been in existence.
This is the AIPA burst re Joyce as CEO. It should take care of genex's concerns.
This is the AIPA burst re Joyce as CEO. It should take care of genex's concerns.
“The Australian and International Pilots Association today cautiously welcomed the appointment of Alan Joyce as Qantas Chief Executive Officer and say it represents an opportunity to improve relations between the people who have made Qantas a success – pilots and other employees - and senior management.
If the recent events of Friday’s QF30 incident proves anything, it’s that aviation is not simply “just another business” – teamwork and listening to employees is the key to maintaining the historically high Qantas standards. Our hope is that Alan Joyce has been thinking about the same things.
There is no doubt Qantas is going to face significant challenges in the future and that those challenges will require all parts of the company to work together.
With Alan’s appointment we look forward to further opening the lines of communication between Qantas senior management and pilots.
Today is also a landmark day with Geoff Dixon standing down as CEO.
Despite our disagreements over the years, it’s timely to reflect on the fact that Qantas is now better placed to take advantage of international developments in the aviation industry than it was when Geoff took over the reins and he deserves credit for that.
Aviation attracts passionate people and Geoff Dixon certainly falls into that category. We wish him well in what will undoubtedly be an active retirement.”
If the recent events of Friday’s QF30 incident proves anything, it’s that aviation is not simply “just another business” – teamwork and listening to employees is the key to maintaining the historically high Qantas standards. Our hope is that Alan Joyce has been thinking about the same things.
There is no doubt Qantas is going to face significant challenges in the future and that those challenges will require all parts of the company to work together.
With Alan’s appointment we look forward to further opening the lines of communication between Qantas senior management and pilots.
Today is also a landmark day with Geoff Dixon standing down as CEO.
Despite our disagreements over the years, it’s timely to reflect on the fact that Qantas is now better placed to take advantage of international developments in the aviation industry than it was when Geoff took over the reins and he deserves credit for that.
Aviation attracts passionate people and Geoff Dixon certainly falls into that category. We wish him well in what will undoubtedly be an active retirement.”
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Qantas in Better Shape?
A drovers dog could have run Qantas over the last 10 years with a commonsense approach.
It would be in a lot better shape than it is now if someone else other than Dixon has run the place.
Dixons success is myth.
It would be in a lot better shape than it is now if someone else other than Dixon has run the place.
Dixons success is myth.
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G'Day Keg,
Just wondering where does the Qantaslink pilot group fit into the overall scheme of things, considering at this stage they don't have any jets to bargin with.
Cheers
Just wondering where does the Qantaslink pilot group fit into the overall scheme of things, considering at this stage they don't have any jets to bargin with.
Cheers
Nunc est bibendum
Seniority wise? It's the stated aim of AIPA that all pilots employed by the group go onto a group seniority list. That way it doesn't matter whether you start as a Dash 8 F/O, a J* A320 F/O or a mainline S/O you can ultimately bid for a 744 command, A380 command, 787 command, etc, etc. Obviously there are some issues to get across in terms of ensuring that people don't feel hard done by.
As quick example, I don't think we should consider datal seniority to fly the 787- which genex suggested we should do. The reason I say 'no' to that is that I know that most J* drivers wouldn't have the seniority to fly them. There are currently 1100 QF drivers with start dates prior to 1995. I wonder how many J* drivers have that sort of seniority? (As a side issue, this highlights genex's lack of thinking in blind attempts to take a shot at QF drivers. He throws up a daft suggestion that would see the mainline pilot group ostracised by everyone- CEO, shareholders, public and most importantly, those that we seek to work with as colleagues.
So the way to solve the 'group opportunity list' is to quarantine your own flying first and then open it up to the wider group after all your current crew have had the opportunity to bid for it. Current regional guys and gals get first crack at regional commands. They get access to mainline commands on datal seniority after all current mainline crew have passed it up. However if a J* command came up then that goes datal after all J* crew have passed it up. Anyone who joins after a particular date is pure datal seniority no matter where you start your flying career in the group.
How close are we to that now? Not very. Why? The Qantas 'group'- and many others like Led Zepplin and genex- don't want their pilots being that collegiate and working together. They much prefer us running each other down in a bid to see who can do things more cheaply.
As quick example, I don't think we should consider datal seniority to fly the 787- which genex suggested we should do. The reason I say 'no' to that is that I know that most J* drivers wouldn't have the seniority to fly them. There are currently 1100 QF drivers with start dates prior to 1995. I wonder how many J* drivers have that sort of seniority? (As a side issue, this highlights genex's lack of thinking in blind attempts to take a shot at QF drivers. He throws up a daft suggestion that would see the mainline pilot group ostracised by everyone- CEO, shareholders, public and most importantly, those that we seek to work with as colleagues.
So the way to solve the 'group opportunity list' is to quarantine your own flying first and then open it up to the wider group after all your current crew have had the opportunity to bid for it. Current regional guys and gals get first crack at regional commands. They get access to mainline commands on datal seniority after all current mainline crew have passed it up. However if a J* command came up then that goes datal after all J* crew have passed it up. Anyone who joins after a particular date is pure datal seniority no matter where you start your flying career in the group.
How close are we to that now? Not very. Why? The Qantas 'group'- and many others like Led Zepplin and genex- don't want their pilots being that collegiate and working together. They much prefer us running each other down in a bid to see who can do things more cheaply.
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Keg,
I like the idea of a group list where we can all pick and choose our job discriptions so to speak, but I fail to see where this would benefit the JQ pilots....
At present most JQ pilots who have started in the past 2 years will have a command in the next 2 years and those who won't get one can take a FO spot on the 787..
At present why would a JQ pilot go to QF when they could only take a S/O positon (other than for the cash)
If JQ pilolts could transfer to mainline and collect mainline salaries I see this as the only way this will work!! (don't think this will ever happen)
Also, I believe the group list would only benefit QF pilots (careers not cash) at the present time....
I like the idea of a group list where we can all pick and choose our job discriptions so to speak, but I fail to see where this would benefit the JQ pilots....
At present most JQ pilots who have started in the past 2 years will have a command in the next 2 years and those who won't get one can take a FO spot on the 787..
At present why would a JQ pilot go to QF when they could only take a S/O positon (other than for the cash)
If JQ pilolts could transfer to mainline and collect mainline salaries I see this as the only way this will work!! (don't think this will ever happen)
Also, I believe the group list would only benefit QF pilots (careers not cash) at the present time....
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hi genex, i think keg is closer to the mark. we are both ignorant, not arrogant. sorry if the crack about booster seats bothered you for some reason.... lighten up and get a merged seniority list under one group, something that will never happen in the f/a ranks due to a short range outlook mentality
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Congratulations, Alan Joyce - you have big shoes to fill.
Farewell, Geoff Dixon. Although you were not as touchy-feely as some here would like, history will come to show you as one of the top ten airline executives of all time - you were magnificent.
Farewell, Geoff Dixon. Although you were not as touchy-feely as some here would like, history will come to show you as one of the top ten airline executives of all time - you were magnificent.
Nunc est bibendum
Thanks Shot Nancy. Interesting numbers.
Muff, fair question. What's in it for the J* crew with a group list. The current captains? Probably very little. The current F/Os? Very little in the short term although they may like the opportunity to bid onto a different long haul (or short haul) fleet in 10-15 years time). What's in it for the QF crew? Current captains? Nil. Current F/Os? Bugger all although some would go. Current S/Os? Lots. They get the opportunity to get promotion before some person on the street. Given that they've been part of the group in a lot of cases for a few years I reckon that's OK. Keep in mind that we haven't yet drawn the line in the sand as to where the GOL starts. Current J* crew still get first access to the upgrade to captain but those not yet employed by J* with effect from (say) 1 Aug 08 will suddenly find themselves behind 2500 QF pilots in terms of the GOL. Of course this latter fact may explain why some of those not employed by J*- like Led and I think genex isn't either if I recall correctly- are so anti the GOL and pilots working together. It would mean that the upgrade they have in mind in three years time when they start with J* once they're finished with whoever they're with at the moment in 12 months time will now be behind the 2500 QF pilots and however many regional pilots who joined the group before they did. Of course they don't publicly state that but you can see it in the rabid way they attack any mere mention of pilot unity with QF mainline pilots.
A GOL does nothing for me either. I have my command training and assuming I knock it over then my life is pretty good. I see no need to consider J* in the short to medium term- unless someone makes me an offer I couldn't refuse!
So, pay and conditions then. Under a GOL you go to the pay and conditions you bid for. If I bid for a J* 787 command- once all the current J* crew have had the chance to knock it back- then I go on J* terms and conditions. If you bid for a mainline 744 F/O slot in a few years then you go on those terms and conditions.
However, personally I'd like to see pay and conditions ironed out across the group so that an A320 gig is the same as a 737 and no difference in terms and conditions between J* and QF for the 787. It may be a pipe dream but it's worth at least discussing and working towards. That may mean that QF drivers accept a little less, it may mean that J* drivers get a little more. It may mean that QF drivers get no less and J* drivers get a bit more again.
Muff, fair question. What's in it for the J* crew with a group list. The current captains? Probably very little. The current F/Os? Very little in the short term although they may like the opportunity to bid onto a different long haul (or short haul) fleet in 10-15 years time). What's in it for the QF crew? Current captains? Nil. Current F/Os? Bugger all although some would go. Current S/Os? Lots. They get the opportunity to get promotion before some person on the street. Given that they've been part of the group in a lot of cases for a few years I reckon that's OK. Keep in mind that we haven't yet drawn the line in the sand as to where the GOL starts. Current J* crew still get first access to the upgrade to captain but those not yet employed by J* with effect from (say) 1 Aug 08 will suddenly find themselves behind 2500 QF pilots in terms of the GOL. Of course this latter fact may explain why some of those not employed by J*- like Led and I think genex isn't either if I recall correctly- are so anti the GOL and pilots working together. It would mean that the upgrade they have in mind in three years time when they start with J* once they're finished with whoever they're with at the moment in 12 months time will now be behind the 2500 QF pilots and however many regional pilots who joined the group before they did. Of course they don't publicly state that but you can see it in the rabid way they attack any mere mention of pilot unity with QF mainline pilots.
A GOL does nothing for me either. I have my command training and assuming I knock it over then my life is pretty good. I see no need to consider J* in the short to medium term- unless someone makes me an offer I couldn't refuse!
So, pay and conditions then. Under a GOL you go to the pay and conditions you bid for. If I bid for a J* 787 command- once all the current J* crew have had the chance to knock it back- then I go on J* terms and conditions. If you bid for a mainline 744 F/O slot in a few years then you go on those terms and conditions.
However, personally I'd like to see pay and conditions ironed out across the group so that an A320 gig is the same as a 737 and no difference in terms and conditions between J* and QF for the 787. It may be a pipe dream but it's worth at least discussing and working towards. That may mean that QF drivers accept a little less, it may mean that J* drivers get a little more. It may mean that QF drivers get no less and J* drivers get a bit more again.
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Nice one Keg....
Here's hoping anyway.....with the looming election for the JQ guys it wll be interesting to see how AIPA approach us to get us on board..
There is still a lot of sceptism when it comes to AIPA, especially after Ian Woods comments a few days ago in the Herald Sun..
Here's hoping anyway.....with the looming election for the JQ guys it wll be interesting to see how AIPA approach us to get us on board..
There is still a lot of sceptism when it comes to AIPA, especially after Ian Woods comments a few days ago in the Herald Sun..