Merged: Tiger Tales
Accepting a slight tail wind in order to land straight in at night off of an ILS in preference to other approaches was probably made with no thought of saving either time or fuel. Unfortunately plan A appears to have become unstuck and plan B was not in place.
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Surely this is similar to a night departure at somewhere surrounded by terrain where performance requires a climb to MSA within the circling area prior to departing on track.
Look at 1.6% net climb engine out (for a twin). Will you make obstacle clearance altitude or circling altitude on runway track before leaving the circling area?. No, youll get to 400' at 4.1 miles and things are getting awfully tight for a turn at 15 degree AOB. Chances are the circling altitude is not going to be reached for another 4.1 miles and by now you are on downwind.
Turning into the circling area after departure is a plan for hackers who really have not thought things through. It should be forbidden in an operators SOPS. Go straight ahead in the splay. Then hope your performance engineers have calculated your takeoff performance to get over whatever comes next or they have told you to turn onto a track that avoids terrain.
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Loosen the Grip
Ok. All you rule quoting Knobs out there.
Where you there?
Have you flown a A320 into Avalon in the last month?
Have you flown into AV ever?
Weather CAVOK.
Jetstar did that night and not long before Tiger and we almost got suckered into the straight in 18 ILS being the SAFEST approach into AV and with a 7 knot tail wind.
But with a tail wind it might not be the most time efficient if you miss D taxiway (3km taxi to the bay). Or do a MAP due tail wind. So time and fuel savings go out the window.
Option 1. GPS or VOR App on to 36, OUR option that night.
Option 2. Fly ILS18 to 1500 ft break Left and Fly a visual right circuit onto 36. ATC option for us that night. But we declined.
Option 3. Fly the ILS and conduct MAP if tailwind to greater then knots on PFD. Then enter hold for GPS at 10 nm and conduct same.
Option 4. MAP to MSA, track to AID and circle to 1500ft in circling area and carry out a vis circuit. (NOT the best option in a A320)Cat C4.2 Cat D5.2 give or take.
So what did Tiger do???Do any of you know???
If they did do a visual approach from MSA(2500ft straight in 36) I believe they could not have left 2500ft until 5nm from threshold on the VASI. 800ft above profile by my guess. I havent tried it but it could be posible in a A320 FULLY CONFIGURED AND STABLE AT 500FT. My biggest problem then would be descent rate not busting MSA.
Where you there?
Have you flown a A320 into Avalon in the last month?
Have you flown into AV ever?
Weather CAVOK.
Jetstar did that night and not long before Tiger and we almost got suckered into the straight in 18 ILS being the SAFEST approach into AV and with a 7 knot tail wind.
But with a tail wind it might not be the most time efficient if you miss D taxiway (3km taxi to the bay). Or do a MAP due tail wind. So time and fuel savings go out the window.
Option 1. GPS or VOR App on to 36, OUR option that night.
Option 2. Fly ILS18 to 1500 ft break Left and Fly a visual right circuit onto 36. ATC option for us that night. But we declined.
Option 3. Fly the ILS and conduct MAP if tailwind to greater then knots on PFD. Then enter hold for GPS at 10 nm and conduct same.
Option 4. MAP to MSA, track to AID and circle to 1500ft in circling area and carry out a vis circuit. (NOT the best option in a A320)Cat C4.2 Cat D5.2 give or take.
So what did Tiger do???Do any of you know???
If they did do a visual approach from MSA(2500ft straight in 36) I believe they could not have left 2500ft until 5nm from threshold on the VASI. 800ft above profile by my guess. I havent tried it but it could be posible in a A320 FULLY CONFIGURED AND STABLE AT 500FT. My biggest problem then would be descent rate not busting MSA.
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Ok. All you rule quoting Knobs out there.
Where you there?
Where you there?
option 5. ILS 18 down to check out the wind, MAP to Circling altitude then a visual circuit onto RWY36.
It was brought up earlier in this thread and I was so taken aback I joined PPRUNE after 10 years of using it as light entertainment. But as you didn't put the offending option on your list this Knob can go to bed now.
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Option 2. Should be adjusted to include not only 1500' but break off at circling minima. Although as you rightly put, at night, ca ok just keep it standard cct height k.I.s.s. ....
Nice post, go back and reread the circling minima thread and watch that continue for a million pages of misinformation. Hc aircraft with 180 pax onboard why risk stupidity... Or give it a chance to go wrong.
Nice post, go back and reread the circling minima thread and watch that continue for a million pages of misinformation. Hc aircraft with 180 pax onboard why risk stupidity... Or give it a chance to go wrong.
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A37575, that would suggest a training problem then which, I believe, was one of the concerns to CASA, especially in the light of a similar error less than a month ago.
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That said, SIA bashing is a national sport in Singapore, as is QF bashing in Australia.
Agree totally with the above, and both countries national carriers appear to be in a race to the bottom by what appears to be "fusing the full service and LCC models together."
Unlike Qantas, SIA have been much better at looking after the flagship brand by adopting the correct fleet renewal program over the past few years amongst other things. AJ has taken his eye off the ball with his continual fascination in J* (his baby) funded by Qantas in the first place.
It is my view, the grounding of Tiger Australia this week sounds alarm bells to the business community that AJ and LCs well advanced strategy is flawed by clipping Q internationals wings in exchange for J* wings. Attacking the pilots and engineers labour costs is not the reason why Q international is losing money, it's the confusing creative accounting within the Q group and mixed messages coming from AJ & Co which is doing the damage. They have continually fused the full service and LCC models making Q a much more uninviting product for punters to consider. Traditional Q long haul customers probably don't like the ad on culture that is creeping in.
I doubt SIA will allow Tigers problems damage mothers image or will the new LCC SIA backed unnamed long haul airline divert too much attention away from mothers arms similar to what AJ allowed to happen at Q?
The carrier was already under CASA's spotlight at that stage because of concerns about maintenance control as well as systemic problems relating to pilot training and proficiency.
The maintenance issues were related to the carrier's oversights from Singapore, rather than the standard of maintenance itself, and Tiger has since moved to address them by employing key personnel locally. It is believed these issues were not a factor in Friday's decision to ground the airline.
Concerns about pilot proficiency lingered, however, and CASA resolved the show-cause by putting a number of conditions on the airline's air operator's certificate. These include a requirement that the airline's check and training captains requalify, and subsequent additional simulator training for line pilots, as well as changes to fatigue management.
It was Tiger's response to the requirements and an incident last Thursday at Victoria's Avalon airport, near Geelong, that pushed the CASA concerns past the brink.
Endangered Tiger Airways goes to ground | The Australian
The maintenance issues were related to the carrier's oversights from Singapore, rather than the standard of maintenance itself, and Tiger has since moved to address them by employing key personnel locally. It is believed these issues were not a factor in Friday's decision to ground the airline.
Concerns about pilot proficiency lingered, however, and CASA resolved the show-cause by putting a number of conditions on the airline's air operator's certificate. These include a requirement that the airline's check and training captains requalify, and subsequent additional simulator training for line pilots, as well as changes to fatigue management.
It was Tiger's response to the requirements and an incident last Thursday at Victoria's Avalon airport, near Geelong, that pushed the CASA concerns past the brink.
Endangered Tiger Airways goes to ground | The Australian
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New MD for Tiger Airways Australia?
I think it’s time that aviation professionals and the travelling public in Australia recognised the real problems that have now resulted in the grounding of Tiger Airways Australia. You can read the recent press on the matter, which is now starting to publish assessment pieces on what’s transpired within Tiger, but I wonder if these articles are going to get to the real issues.
How many times are we going to stand by without action before it’s recognised and understood that the problems to which CASA has taken aim, stem directly from the aggressive approach to business that’s being pursued all airline managements. When the task becomes tough, the “revolving door” approach to airline managements takes over and they move on, which is what we’re now seeing in the Australian aviation business and within other aviation market areas.
Since commencing operations in November 2007 under the helm of Tony Davis CEO, Tiger Aviation (Singapore) has installed its third Managing Director in less than four years into its Australian operation. Each one has opened with the same style of brief, an aggressive approach to business, “Fly Cheaper” (company slogan) and embarked with a “new” broom, before moving on in a fairly quick fashion to something else.
Ø Nov 2007, Chris Ward,
Initial MD for start-up, departed Jun 2008, to set-up Incheon Tiger Airways, Korea
Ø Jun 2008, Shelley Roberts
In from Macquarie Airports, (SACL. EasyJet, KPMG), departed Mar 2010 for a “rest”.
Ø Mar 2010, Crawford Rix,
In from BMI Baby UK, incumbent
In the case of Tiger Airways Australia, you only have to look at the length of time and the extent of the issues within the PPRUNE “Tiger Tales” thread to realise that all is not as it should be within this operation. It’s become apparent that the company’s approach to business can’t afford the level of safe operation that’s required by the regulator, CASA.
With the arrival of Tony Davis CEO in Australia, he “publicly rejected CASA's reasoning for the grounding during an ABC radio interview on Saturday and denied there were immediate risks to air safety” (The Trouble with Tiger, "Endangered Tiger Airways goes to Ground" – The Australian).
“The Trouble with Tiger” is its management and their view of safety within their business.
Dragonfly
How many times are we going to stand by without action before it’s recognised and understood that the problems to which CASA has taken aim, stem directly from the aggressive approach to business that’s being pursued all airline managements. When the task becomes tough, the “revolving door” approach to airline managements takes over and they move on, which is what we’re now seeing in the Australian aviation business and within other aviation market areas.
Since commencing operations in November 2007 under the helm of Tony Davis CEO, Tiger Aviation (Singapore) has installed its third Managing Director in less than four years into its Australian operation. Each one has opened with the same style of brief, an aggressive approach to business, “Fly Cheaper” (company slogan) and embarked with a “new” broom, before moving on in a fairly quick fashion to something else.
Ø Nov 2007, Chris Ward,
Initial MD for start-up, departed Jun 2008, to set-up Incheon Tiger Airways, Korea
Ø Jun 2008, Shelley Roberts
In from Macquarie Airports, (SACL. EasyJet, KPMG), departed Mar 2010 for a “rest”.
Ø Mar 2010, Crawford Rix,
In from BMI Baby UK, incumbent
In the case of Tiger Airways Australia, you only have to look at the length of time and the extent of the issues within the PPRUNE “Tiger Tales” thread to realise that all is not as it should be within this operation. It’s become apparent that the company’s approach to business can’t afford the level of safe operation that’s required by the regulator, CASA.
With the arrival of Tony Davis CEO in Australia, he “publicly rejected CASA's reasoning for the grounding during an ABC radio interview on Saturday and denied there were immediate risks to air safety” (The Trouble with Tiger, "Endangered Tiger Airways goes to Ground" – The Australian).
“The Trouble with Tiger” is its management and their view of safety within their business.
Dragonfly
Last edited by dragonflyhkg; 3rd Jul 2011 at 21:01.
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Shelley tried to fix things, but Tony just wouldn't buy it. She resigned as a result of this.
Good summary from the Business Times in Singapore...
Good summary from the Business Times in Singapore...
So why has Tiger fared so poorly where its competitors seem to be finding their feet?
There are no clear answers.
While the company itself insists that all is generally fine, there have been issues within.
Not long ago, pilots mutinied over wage disagreements, leaving thousands of passengers stranded. In recent months, there have been reports of departures by senior officials both in Singapore and Australia.
There have been rumours of unhappiness, whether justified or not, among incumbents within the company - both in Singapore and Australia - over CEO Tony Davis's tendency to recruit and place in prominent positions, former colleagues from Britain, especially former employer BMI Baby.
Tiger Singapore managing director Rosalynn Tay quit abruptly last year, as did Australian Shelly Roberts at Tiger Australia. Meanwhile, several industry veterans were hired from Britain. Dave Perring was promoted to commercial director, while operations director Daniel Wong made way for two incoming managers. Meanwhile, Mike Coltman, Tiger's former operations director from Australia, moved north to oversee the establishment of Tiger's Thai unit with Thai Airways, while former pilot Christopher Ward was lured back to Tiger to head the partnership with Philippines-based SeAir. Rix Crawford from BMI Baby now runs the Australian operations.
In fact, some within the company think the whole Australia fiasco could be a result of a fallout with Australian staff, who were replaced by Brits. On this front, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority's call to Tiger to ensure it employed 'suitably qualified people (to) fill management and operational positions' seems telling.
There are no clear answers.
While the company itself insists that all is generally fine, there have been issues within.
Not long ago, pilots mutinied over wage disagreements, leaving thousands of passengers stranded. In recent months, there have been reports of departures by senior officials both in Singapore and Australia.
There have been rumours of unhappiness, whether justified or not, among incumbents within the company - both in Singapore and Australia - over CEO Tony Davis's tendency to recruit and place in prominent positions, former colleagues from Britain, especially former employer BMI Baby.
Tiger Singapore managing director Rosalynn Tay quit abruptly last year, as did Australian Shelly Roberts at Tiger Australia. Meanwhile, several industry veterans were hired from Britain. Dave Perring was promoted to commercial director, while operations director Daniel Wong made way for two incoming managers. Meanwhile, Mike Coltman, Tiger's former operations director from Australia, moved north to oversee the establishment of Tiger's Thai unit with Thai Airways, while former pilot Christopher Ward was lured back to Tiger to head the partnership with Philippines-based SeAir. Rix Crawford from BMI Baby now runs the Australian operations.
In fact, some within the company think the whole Australia fiasco could be a result of a fallout with Australian staff, who were replaced by Brits. On this front, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority's call to Tiger to ensure it employed 'suitably qualified people (to) fill management and operational positions' seems telling.
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If it's not Tiger pushing the limits it'll be "Panda". Tiger isn't the problem, the culture that has developed in the industry is the problem.
Next door neighbor drives a truck. He reckons he couldn't do the hours we do. Says the training is very thorough and paid for by the company. The Truck won't leave the depot with a defect. Even he commented "when the taxi to the airport costs more than the airfare something is not right".
The only leadership we get from the political parties is what pleases the masses in order to get reelected. The minister for Mascot prooved it again this morning is Sydney. What a fantastic show that was. I pitied the controllers and the customers.
The other day I saw a pie chart on total company costs. The taxes/charges/nav fees portion was massive. It's not sustainable.
Next door neighbor drives a truck. He reckons he couldn't do the hours we do. Says the training is very thorough and paid for by the company. The Truck won't leave the depot with a defect. Even he commented "when the taxi to the airport costs more than the airfare something is not right".
The only leadership we get from the political parties is what pleases the masses in order to get reelected. The minister for Mascot prooved it again this morning is Sydney. What a fantastic show that was. I pitied the controllers and the customers.
The other day I saw a pie chart on total company costs. The taxes/charges/nav fees portion was massive. It's not sustainable.
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Mr Hat, that's a very interested line of reasoning.
Perhaps, perhaps what is actually happening is this. Other industries are now utilizing the aviation template - the tombstone imperative / safety first / learning culture that had previously existed. However, aviation is now actually regressing, while other industries are taking this template & improving on our lessons, learned in blood.
In other words, the bar has been raised beyond the industry, and the general public will no longer tolerate a poor safety culture in their workplace or in aviation.
Perhaps the regulator is actually sniffing the winds of political change...
Perhaps, perhaps what is actually happening is this. Other industries are now utilizing the aviation template - the tombstone imperative / safety first / learning culture that had previously existed. However, aviation is now actually regressing, while other industries are taking this template & improving on our lessons, learned in blood.
In other words, the bar has been raised beyond the industry, and the general public will no longer tolerate a poor safety culture in their workplace or in aviation.
Perhaps the regulator is actually sniffing the winds of political change...
Xcel. You are wrong. Tiger are selling all sectors from Sat 9 July which may be designed to put pressure on CASA to lift the suspension. Mr Gerard Brody of the Consumer Action Law Centre has described the Tiger action as most unusual and warned some travel insurers may not cover tickets issued during the period of uncertainty.
