Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

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Old 17th Aug 2014, 07:59
  #1601 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 2,881
need for a safe and stress less work environment.
I can see both sides here but really, dealing with the stress and making good decisions under (commercial) pressure is WHY the PIC gets paid what they do. We all know it is not because the job is difficult to do.
This is seen from the perspective of feeling pretty secure that my MFO and I are on the same page. I know he will back any (reasonable) decision I make. The million dollar question is define "reasonable". Which takes me back to where we started, you get paid to make the call.

Is it possible that the CP chatted about the missed approaches to get the info first hand. Perhaps the tone from the pilot concerned was "embellished" so that he or she felt they were chatted? Always funny when I know both sides of a story and I hear both sides tell me their version, they rarely agree.

Follow SOPs, make SAFE decisions and sleep soundly. No need to tell the CP to [email protected]#k off.
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Old 17th Aug 2014, 08:17
  #1602 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 945
The thing is though, Cactus clearly stated that the CP 'chewed him out and lectured him' for doing a go-around due to windshear and a runway incursion. So I stand by my statement that if I got 'chewed out' for carrying out a missed approach in these situations I would tell him to 'put it in writing' and if he wouldn't then f'off'. If the CP rang me to simply clarify the events of a go-around then of course I wouldn't worry about that. I also stand by my assertion that NO ONE can pressure you into leaving with a fault on the aircraft that would otherwise ground it, this shows a 'weakness' on the part of the crew and is easily overcome by just simply 'writing' the tech log entry up. To suggest that 'wanting to keep your job because you have a mortgage' is a reason to fly an aircraft in an unfit state or to indeed be bullied into NOT carrying out missed approaches because the nasty CP might bollock you is ludicrous in the extreme. Why do pilots get treated like crap in this day and age, because we allow managers to treat us like crap.
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Old 17th Aug 2014, 08:46
  #1603 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 0
I really struggle to believe that any chief pilot, except maybe in a dodgy GA operation (and that is a struggle too), would give someone a tune up for going around in windshear or in the case of a runway incursion.

In this day of QAR's and data recorded on the aeroplane and recorded ATC transmissions it would be pretty easy to determine the truth.

There are always three sides to a story. Your side, their side and the truth (which usually lies somewhere in between).

I know of a number of pilots that will tell everybody that will listen that the "company" was going to sack them for standards issues but the "Union" saved them. I know for a fact that termination was never considered let alone discussed. The pilots concerned will never admit to the lengths the company and training department went to to try and get them through, and to this day actively bag out the managers, trainers and check pilots involved, so I don't get too wound up when people howl with indignation about being "reamed" or "threatened". They won't, to this day, admit that the same trainers and checkers that were incompetent and biased and yadda yadda yadda managed to get hundreds of other pilots through with no problems, and perhaps their (the failed candidate) performance contributed in some small way to the outcome.

That all said, I am sure they believe that they were reamed by the chief pilot for those issues, but suggest that the message transmitted is sometimes not the message that is received. If an email is used then it is even harder as intent and tone are notoriously hard to impart on emails.
Snakecharma is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2014, 11:29
  #1604 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 183

I've worked for both of the A320 LCCs that operate in Australia. I'd have to say that what your 'close relative' has told you should be taken as a load of rubbish.

These are airlines whose CPs are far too busy to bother themselves with contacting line pilots over insignificant operational matters; perhaps they might for an 'incident' that could come close to being a significant and negative one for the company. But for a go-around? And on '...numerous other occasions...' for '...MEL...' matters??? I find that impossible to believe. Especially as I personally know all the men who have/do hold that office with those airlines.

They have far more important things to occupy their day, than to worry about that kind of drivel.

No manager in either company, let alone the CP, has ever contacted me for committing either of the atrocities that you mentioned.

But, hell, let's not let the truth get in the way of a good yarn.

As for the answer to your last question; there are only a few people who honestly know whether he has or hasn't been 'pineappled' (as you so delicately put it) - they are the PIC, the CP and whoever else happened to be present when any discussions were had between the two of them in relation to the matters concerned. Anyone else is peddling hearsay. Pure and simple.
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Old 17th Aug 2014, 12:07
  #1605 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: oz
Posts: 278
Yep thats rubbish, and if anything remotely like that was to occur, grow a pair and give it right back at them betwen the eyes.
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Old 17th Aug 2014, 13:39
  #1606 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,974
dealing with the stress and making good decisions under (commercial) pressure is WHY the PIC gets paid what they do.
So that is why A380 captains get paid such humungous money because they are dealing with the stress and making good decisions under (commercial) pressure. Contrast those decisions with the RFDS pilots flying single pilot in the middle of the outback night.
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Old 17th Aug 2014, 15:10
  #1607 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 23
... while learning all those good lessons and experience which will one day make them great and hopefully well paid A380 Captains...
Derfred is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2014, 21:00
  #1608 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: The bush
Posts: 173
Holyman Airways, 1933?????
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Old 17th Aug 2014, 21:37
  #1609 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
Cup of tea, a Bex and a nice little lie down.

2-TBags Even though the role and responsibility was clearly defined in the OM & corporate tree, a particular CMT would not correspond to the DFO position because in their view it was not a recognized position by CASA (you cant make this up).
The job description was probably 'over-cooked' and seen as abrogating CP responsibility. The purpose of a DFO is so the CP can actually concentrate on 'operational management' Think of the DFO as a coordinator, balancing, catching, stacking, aligning, joining all the dots and being able to make a jigsaw puzzle picture even the 'board' will understand.

Icarus - "Always funny when I know both sides of a story and I hear both sides tell me their version, they rarely agree. (Amen to that)....
Now these notions of being 'bollocked' and telling a CP to go boil his head are both a little outlandish. One could (IMO) reasonably expect tea, biccy's and a please explain if say, a 'go around' had not been executed; or, the aircraft had landed short of minimum fuel etc. etc.: a 'chat'; to facilitate discovery of exactly WTF happened and why. From there on it becomes scenario specific, depending on who did what, to whom and who paid.

Icarus is pretty much on the money "define reasonable"; and this is where the saga of Capt. Guy and the Tiger gets ugly and begs controversial questions. IF Tiger 'management' have acted in the manner described here on PPRuNe, then indeed there are serious underlying issues which must be addressed as eventually, unaddressed they will impact on efficiency, the carry through affecting profitability. When the exercise of command prerogative is perceived as being undermined or being used as a weapon, the PIC will simply put the brakes on – '"Sorry too much – ashtray full, delay the departure". Watch the mad scramble then.

I keep mentioning that without all the facts etc. etc.. BUT if "the incident" has been mismanaged and Guy has been unfairly penalised, then the rot has well and truly set in. Even IF the ugly allegations made are ever proven true, it still highlights a raft of 'internal' issues and attitudes which need to be removed, root and bough. Will all of this affect 'safety'?, probably not. But if the situation is allowed to devolve into a 'sniping' match, pissing competition or even open guerrilla warfare it is counterproductive; made worse because it's completely unnecessary, the bitter aftertaste is truly vile and long lasting.

My money and hope is on good sense prevailing, sooner rather than later.
“To lose one parent may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness.” ....Wilde.
Hagbard Celine – good catch Fysti, nicely played.....

Last edited by Kharon; 18th Aug 2014 at 20:53.
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 15:32
  #1610 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Florence
Age: 71
Posts: 120
Unhappy maybe, maybe not


The purpose of a DFO is so the CP can actually concentrate on 'operational compliance' Think of the DFO as a coordinator, balancing, catching, stacking, aligning, joining all the dots and being able to make a jigsaw puzzle picture even the 'board' will understand.
How very UK CAA/GCAA UAE of you...

Over very many years, I have realised how definitional that juxtaposition of DFO/CP really is. Here you can throw in the "accountable manager" into the mix as well.

In days of old, the accountable manager was the boss of the legal entity to whom the AOC had been issued - he/she could delegate authority left, right and centre to their heart's content, but could never escape responsibility/accountability. There was no bullshet 'pass-the -parcel' arrangements like you see in Qantas or elsewhere and the buck stopped at the top. DCA/DoT/CAA and early CASA did not accept minions in the path between the head of operational compliance and performance (the CP) and the head of commercial compliance and performance (the boss) - full stop.

Your description of the role of the DFO was what real CPs did before CASA and others let the foxes into the chookhouse. Every minion between the boss and the CP emasculated the CP in the path to keeping the commercial fantasies in the realm of safe and practical aviation, particularly since none of the minions suffer any real consequences for their cock-ups. Even if the boss fired them, they would just turn up somewhere else to rerun their interference on some other hapless CP.

The Australian regulator has made modern CPs nothing more than Senior Pilots, pilots with no real corporate clout and no regulatory support. So now comes this thought - oh, we need a DFO, a person who does all the things that a CP used to do except for regulatory compliance and who can be looked to as a new regulatory target of sorts. Pity that there is no legislative support to hold the DFO accountable for anything or to require any particular skills or experience to hold the position - unlike those other places like the UK, UAE or other colonial offshoots. But, as you say, suggestions of corporate interference in operational management are "a little outlandish" - it would never happen here, would it?

Of course, if you want to get a glimpse of how the model works in Australia, have a look at how Tiger fared under the BMI boys - that worked really well!!!

Methinks, in pushing the DFO barrow without the necessary framework in place that you are polishing a little more than the gilding on the lily...
Prince Niccolo M is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2014, 20:08
  #1611 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Yosemite
Age: 48
Posts: 177
The silence from OEB in the past few days is deafening, and his posts have disappeared. Freedom of speech issue or the lawyers are on deck?
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Old 18th Aug 2014, 20:49
  #1612 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
Agree with learned colleague M'lud..

Nick – couldn't agree more and have said so on numerous occasions; at least three times in this thread. Desperate to avoid thread drift the DFO was just thrown into the mix as a side bar. We could I expect discuss the CP role at length, ad tedium ad nauseum and end up back at this point; in furious agreement, especially where CASA (and others) have stuck an oar in. I do believe it is an issue and have many times now considered kicking off a CP/PIC thread but it's an esoteric, academic and 'operationally' specific kind of subject: one man's meat etc. I will change one word 'compliance' to 'management' as in the old school meaning of Boss, I could perhaps have expressed it better – Heigh ho...

So, with your indulgence I'll skip by that debate and try to focus on what appears, on the surface at least, to be (IMO) one of the visible, unsavoury end results of Tiger being grounded......{edit} - Just picked up the Soteria sally, now why would the OEB opinion posts be 'pulled'?, perhaps the corporate boys asked nicely.

Toot toot...

Last edited by Kharon; 18th Aug 2014 at 21:02. Reason: OEM posts - o vont-ils
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Old 19th Aug 2014, 09:48
  #1613 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 54
Posts: 21
Its been an interesting read this thread but Ive now put 2 and 2 together.

Youve been a fool and didnt listen. Good luck fighting the Virgin group. Your first priority should have been to get your licence back not slander your employer on here. While you probably are drug free, you will fail in any endeavour to get any recompense. More fool the all the people (brother?) who are responsible for a media strategy rather than an industrial strategy. The moment this sordid story broke in the media, and the first person posting on here, your fate was sealed.

It's about time we organised something through our unions to start a fighting/support fund similar to what we did for JE, If not to fight, at least to help the skipper concerned pay the mortgage and put food on the table until he is reinstated or finds his way.

Laurie, I know you are probably reading this. Is this something the AFAP can get involved with? VIPA? TWU?
The problem is, while his comrades joined up in numbers, 80% union membership I hear at the Tiger, he sat back and allowed everyone else to do the heavy lifting. I would bet my left nut that he tried to join up after the incident. Too many pilots want to join a union after they find themselves in a hole.

Try buying home insurance after your house burns down.
Tony the Tiler is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2014, 11:02
  #1614 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Someplace else
Age: 36
Posts: 1,349
If you drink and prune, you're a bloody idiot...

P.S. The above post is in its 3rd edition. Wait, no the comment about opening and swallowing has been removed, so that makes it 4.

Last edited by j3pipercub; 20th Aug 2014 at 07:17.
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Old 19th Aug 2014, 16:54
  #1615 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Age: 65
Posts: 42
Common Law, Work Place Relations and so on and so forth

I had heard this travesty mentioned over a dinner table conversation and frankly thought there must have been an error, so opened up prune and lo and behold there were the posts.
I have monitored the steady decline in Australian aviation from afar over many years yet the toxic environment it has become has now plumbed new depths.
If what has been reported on this august blog is in fact even partially true I would expect the recipient of these grave injustices to be elligible for some recompense through the courts for his troubles.
You simply can't go around slandering a person and ruining a good reputation, assuming of course the reputation is good to start with. I would doubt very much whether CASA's reticence to reveal the slanderer would survive the discovery process should litigation be commenced.
Similarly I would expect an unfair dismissal case would be interesting considering the two processes seem to be linked. In fact this person has apparently done no wrong operationally, nor is there a skerrick of evidence to support the drug use accusation yet his reputation is in ruins and his livlihood been destroyed.
Good heavens, rumour and innuendo is just that. To act on it without foundation is negligence and should be treated as such.
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Old 19th Aug 2014, 21:09
  #1616 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
Are my feet on fire dear?

Speculator: Before any word of this sordid little tale reached the grubby ears of the SMH reporter and on to PPRuNe, confirmation that certain ducks were neatly in place, firmly bolted down, clean, tidy and ready to rock should have been obtained.

If this is indeed a clean skin, then every pilot who depends on a license as a source of income should get behind it; as should the 'authority'. Human factors aside there is a 'Kosher' safety case here. Sure it's subtle and may not cause a smoking hole, but constant, costly, time consuming incidents and minor events play havoc with public perception of the airline operation. Folks may still use the service, but will they beat down the door to get a seat when a less 'controversial' service is offered at a competitive price?

If this not 'clear cut' and ridgy didge; well it becomes a minor topic for crew discussion over a beer; should the mood descend. For Tiger it is a headache but properly addressed could be turned to advantage clear the cob webs, pave the way to a 'happy' crew working in fresh air.

I note OEM has, once again pulled a post which mentioned $200, 000 being set aside for pursuing Capt. Guy through the courts and that he had been beaten bloody during the past few days. Troo dat or, has Tony TT hit the nail?

More questions than answers methinks. It's tough enough to win a thing like this when everything is on your side; this is not a game to be played half assed, half pissed or with half truths. No one wins that game.

Aye well, back to my knitting..
Kharon is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2014, 01:38
  #1617 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 183
OEB, your last post is a classic example of 'own goal' behaviour.

Do yourself a favour and stop digging an ever-bigger hole for yourself by continuing to post the kind of nonsense that you seem intent to post lately - the aggressive reaction towards Tony will just turn ever-more readers against your situation, and give confirmation to others in what they might've suspected.

Compare your first post to your last post! Stick to the stuff you wrote at the start of this thread. I'm sure there are all sorts of dark thoughts going through your head at the moment. This is not the place to try and rid yourself of those.

There are far better ways to get over the difficult times you've just gone through. Posting aggressive/threatening words on these pages will not be cathartic - quite the opposite.

If you're a member of one of the unions, contact them for support. If you're not a member, there are many other good support organisations in all capital cities. It's not a defeat if you choose to go down that path; it's the first step to getting on with the rest of your life/career.

I don't know you. I do know though, that based on what I've seen you write on here, you're charging full-speed towards certain professional destruction. And I feel that someone should advise you to cease and desist while you still have the chance.

Good luck.
RAD_ALT_ALIVE is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2014, 07:26
  #1618 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 704
Wow. And at that point the cheer squad left the field.
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Old 20th Aug 2014, 08:03
  #1619 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: In a box
Posts: 230
OEB, I note you mention FWA as a first step, then continue on.

Certainly do not or have the captain in question, rely on FWA. They are not very helpful at all.

Good luck either way.
Servo is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2014, 08:19
  #1620 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 54
Posts: 21
Rad Alt Alive comes out with some good advice, and you come back with this invective:

Rad Alt Alive
Mate you seem to think i value your opinion? I have absolutely no interest in anything you have to say. Your advice about unions is infantile. 90% of experienced pilots know this.You go to Fair Work Australia then The HRC then The Federal Court. I'm sure you're across all this though. I'v done nothing but post 100% truth and now all you experts come out with your, unrealistic, unworkable, unfeasible, non-viable, impracticable ill-considered, ill-thought-out, illogical, unreasonable, far-fetched, half-baked bullshit ideas.
You are simply, unenlightened, uninformed and uncultivated.
You're probably on both knees with your mouth open ready to swallow whatever the company tells you to.
There are none so deaf as those who will not listen.

It would seem that there are three parts to this problem:

1) A Tiger aeroplane had an incorrect fuel plan for a flight to Perth. The crew used initiative to attempt to fix these issues (with attendant curfew time pressures). This incident highlighted deficiencies in the flight planning / operational control areas of the operation.

2) The PIC of said aeroplane was accused of drug abuse, CASA suspended his medical, and Tiger sacked him. As to the co-operation or conspiring of Tiger and CASA; this is unknown, and could have been explored through discovery during a court process.

3) Details of the above events have leaked to the national newspapers, the sacked PIC is in the frame for the leaks.

Tiger were perversely given a gift when point 3 occurred. It now matters naught what the details of point 1 and 2 are. He can be legitimately sacked for point 3.

And that is the problem with running a media strategy rather than industrial relations strategy. OEB, you’ve kicked an own goal. I have ZERO respect for your antics, but true to form you criticize pilots on here who were offering sage advice.

You didn’t join a union when 80% of your mates did. You didn’t join a union when your mates took protected industrial action to further the contract YOU work under (worked, past tense now). I bet you tried to join a union when your own backside was on fire.

Last edited by Tony the Tiler; 20th Aug 2014 at 08:39.
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