TIBA?
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AMBERALE,
If you want to be precise, the separation 'standard' is NOT 1NM.
The separation "STANDARD" is that the 'probability of overlap" is less that a predetermined target level of safety for a particular application - most often in en-route airspace the TLS is 5 x 10E9 fatal accidents per flight hour per flight dimension.
The range of separation "MINIMA" that controllers are allowed to use is based on navigation certainty, intervention capability and surveillance fidelity - hence with low fidelity surveillance [procedural] and low fidelity intervention capability [HF radio, and low navigation capability [RNP10] the minima might be 20 minutes. In high fidelity environments - radar, VHF, etc, it might be 5NM.
By the way - the lowest separation minima authorised for ATC use between IFR flights is 1000 feet - vertical!
TIBA is non-controlled airspace - there are NO separation standards or minima. If aircraft 'miss', then TIBA has been effective.
If you want to be precise, the separation 'standard' is NOT 1NM.
The separation "STANDARD" is that the 'probability of overlap" is less that a predetermined target level of safety for a particular application - most often in en-route airspace the TLS is 5 x 10E9 fatal accidents per flight hour per flight dimension.
The range of separation "MINIMA" that controllers are allowed to use is based on navigation certainty, intervention capability and surveillance fidelity - hence with low fidelity surveillance [procedural] and low fidelity intervention capability [HF radio, and low navigation capability [RNP10] the minima might be 20 minutes. In high fidelity environments - radar, VHF, etc, it might be 5NM.
By the way - the lowest separation minima authorised for ATC use between IFR flights is 1000 feet - vertical!
TIBA is non-controlled airspace - there are NO separation standards or minima. If aircraft 'miss', then TIBA has been effective.
I'm in one of those moods
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If aircraft 'miss', then TIBA has been effective
.
If either or both pilots do NOT know of the other traffic and therefore do not have a mutually discussed 'resolution plan' .... TIBA has NOT been effective in so far as 'luck' has played a substancial part!
.
There is a world of difference between the two!!
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Wellconcerned
I suggest you read MATS.
It is 1nm between the possible positions of the aircraft. It is precisely that, 1nm. How you determine the 1nm has nothing to do with some folder carrying ******'s formula.
If you want to be precise, the separation 'standard' is NOT 1NM.
I suggest you read MATS.
It is 1nm between the possible positions of the aircraft. It is precisely that, 1nm. How you determine the 1nm has nothing to do with some folder carrying ******'s formula.
Join Date: May 2002
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FGS,
The incident occurred in what should have been enroute airspace, the aircraft were not vertically separated, therefore the radar standard, which CASA mouthpiece stated,should have been 5 miles.
Please fix up the syntax on your last post, and stop acting so superior. I visit the site to discuss, 'listen' to others opinions, and also put my point of view.
You seem to enjoy playing little games. Please let me know how, in this instance, you could justify less than the quoted 5 miles.
The incident occurred in what should have been enroute airspace, the aircraft were not vertically separated, therefore the radar standard, which CASA mouthpiece stated,should have been 5 miles.
Please fix up the syntax on your last post, and stop acting so superior. I visit the site to discuss, 'listen' to others opinions, and also put my point of view.
You seem to enjoy playing little games. Please let me know how, in this instance, you could justify less than the quoted 5 miles.
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If you want to be precise, the separation 'standard' is NOT 1NM...I suggest you read MATS.
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Max, I don't think I am superior at all. I would consider myself an average controller with much to learn. But since you've asked my opinion in this instance, I would not use any separation as it's not controlled airspace at that time. I agree that if it was airspace that required 5 miles I would not use less than that. If it were airspace that required 3 miles I would not use less than that. My simple request was that Boree clarify what type of airspace he was talking about. I just don't think he should have left it at, no controller would ever use less than 5 miles, when reality is that it is used every day in many ways.
As far as sounding superior, you're a bit hoity toity aren't you, asking me to fix my syntax when I type 'the' instead of 'that'.
Get of your high horse.
As far as sounding superior, you're a bit hoity toity aren't you, asking me to fix my syntax when I type 'the' instead of 'that'.
Get of your high horse.
Last edited by ForGreaterSafety; 21st Jul 2008 at 07:48.
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FGS,
And that instead of than, but that is by the by.
You seem to enjoy seeing yourself as the wise mage sitting on the mountain telling people they are wrong, whilst not pointing out the error.
You must be fun to work with.
Controller " XXX requesting FL 370"
FGS " Not available"
Controller "XXX requesting FL 350"
FGS " Not available"
Controller"XXX requesting any higher levels"
FGS " What level does he want"
Controller "Is FL 330 available"
FGS "Not available"
Controller " So when do you move into management?"
And that instead of than, but that is by the by.
You seem to enjoy seeing yourself as the wise mage sitting on the mountain telling people they are wrong, whilst not pointing out the error.
You must be fun to work with.
Controller " XXX requesting FL 370"
FGS " Not available"
Controller "XXX requesting FL 350"
FGS " Not available"
Controller"XXX requesting any higher levels"
FGS " What level does he want"
Controller "Is FL 330 available"
FGS "Not available"
Controller " So when do you move into management?"
Join Date: May 2003
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...but you will only find the 1 NM stuff in the Orstralian MATS AFAIK, the ICAO standard is based on the probability model, Oz complies with stuff like the cross-track tables, doesn't with that magic 1 NM. And I agree, all bets are off in the TIBA.
Whether one is comfortable flying in TIBA is a different question.
A passenger purchases a ticket for a flight and, in doing so, believes that they are paying a premium that ensures that they will arrive at their destination alive and safe, to the maximum extent possible. Unless they are in aviation and understand the reality, they will firmly believe that the flight is being monitored and controlled by an Air Traffic Controller for the duration.
Is it morally correct to board a passenger on a flight that will pass through airspace subject to TIBA and not inform the passenger that their flight will not be subject to an Air Traffic Control service? Is it morally correct to deny that passenger the choice of whether to continue the flight in the knowledge that there will not be an Air Traffic Control service... or not board the aircraft because they personally deem the risk to be unacceptable?
Last edited by Quokka; 21st Jul 2008 at 09:49. Reason: Typographical.
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So should the airlines therefore refund that portion of the ticket price to the passengers? The ones they didn't tell about flying through TIBA as per Quokka's 'moral' point?
Bottums Up
The ones they didn't tell about flying through TIBA
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You seem to enjoy seeing yourself as the wise mage sitting on the mountain telling people they are wrong, whilst not pointing out the error.
mage (m
j) n. A magician or sorcerer.or
sage 1 (s
j) n. One venerated for experience, judgment, and wisdom.adj. sag·er, sag·est 1. Having or exhibiting wisdom and calm judgment.
2. Proceeding from or marked by wisdom and calm judgment: sage advice.
3. Archaic Serious; solemn.
Which one do you think max?
Cheers ozmahseer, missed that one.
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...waving ping-pong bats or to look out of the tower with their bino's?
As for the ping-pong bats... two decades later and I'm still waiting for mine... 