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CASA Concerns Over The Number Of Australian LAMEs.

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CASA Concerns Over The Number Of Australian LAMEs.

Old 10th Jul 2008, 19:44
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CASA Concerns Over The Number Of Australian LAMEs.

2009 CASA Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers (LAME's) Scholarship

The engineering maintenance sector of the Australian aviation industry tends to be considered a background activity when compared with other aviation professionals such as pilots and cabin crew. This has resulted in the sector having a low profile as a career option for young Australians.

There is increasing concern being expressed within the aviation industry that there will be a shortfall in the number of Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers (LAMEs) available to meet a growing workload as the total aircraft fleet size increases and the average aircraft age rises. This problem is exacerbated in regional areas where most organisations are servicing general aviation aircraft.

Financial Support for Students

In response to this, CASA is offering scholarships to students seeking a career as a LAME.

The scholarship, for an individual, will provide support for two years. The scholarship amount is $1,000 for each of the first two years of the apprenticeship.

One scholarship will be available each year for each State and Territory. The scholarship payment is intended to provide support for payment for tools of professional quality, mandatory text/reference books required for the theoretical component of training or travel and accommodation to attend full time theory training.

The availability of continued support will be subject to satisfactory progress in the training, both practical and theoretical. This is to be attested to, at the end of each semester, by:

academic results
employer progress assessment
training organisation assessment

Candidate Selection

Candidates will be required to provide the following:

evidence of an employment commitment signed by the proprietor of an organisation holding a CASA Certificate of Approval for maintenance of Australian aircraft.
character reference from recent employer or school principal
most recent high school examination results which MUST include passes in physics and mathematics, OR
evidence of work experience in mechanical or electrical trade or technical enterprises
a statement, written by the applicant, outlining why the applicant is undertaking training as a LAME

Assessment of applications will be carried out by an expert panel drawn from CASA and professional associations.

Application form

Applications close on 30 November 2008.

Contact details
Applications should be sent to:
Mr David Pattie
Manager Safety Promotion
CASA Engineering Scholarship
GPO Box 2005
Canberra ACT 2601
Email [email protected]
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Old 10th Jul 2008, 20:41
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No $h!t Dick Tracey!!!!

Another gate shut after the horse has bolted......

Better late than never I guess!
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Old 10th Jul 2008, 21:50
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Although I think the concept is fantastic, CASA is not the appropriate government agency to be diverting people and money to this.
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Old 10th Jul 2008, 21:54
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Creamie. The thought is nice but the concept is far from fantastic. Apprentice tools are more than adequately catered for through Award tool allowances and the Federal Tools For Your Trade program; training delivery and workbooks are included in State User Choice funding; and there are a range of programs offering financial inducements for apprentices to enter trades, including the Master Builder's, WorkSkills etc.

The scholarship, for an individual, will provide support for two years. The scholarship amount is $1,000 for each of the first two years of the apprenticeship.

One scholarship will be available each year for each State and Territory.
Unbelievable!! Six States, two Territories, $8,000 per year; two years = $16,000!! And CASA thinks this meager contribution will make any difference to the number of LAMEs in Australia?

Assessment of applications will be carried out by an expert panel drawn from CASA and professional associations.
My guess the expert panel assessment will cost more than the apprentice subsidy!

There are far more effective and rewarding programs offering real financial assistance to apprentices. Contact the Federal Dept of Education, Employment & Workplace Relations, State Depts of Employment & Training or the Group Training Association in all states.

Last edited by Torres; 10th Jul 2008 at 22:07.
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Old 10th Jul 2008, 22:23
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Dr Who and his time machine have touched this thread?

First post was made "Today 05:44". Later posts were made at various times yesterday!

We're aware of the time/date stamp problem - problem being worked on!
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Old 10th Jul 2008, 22:43
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Angry And thier first "Choice"

A one armed,lesbian,native australian !!
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Old 10th Jul 2008, 22:43
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Although I think the concept is fantastic, CASA is not the appropriate government agency to be diverting people and money to this.
I think that CASA have finally got involved as the situation is getting desperate.

They (CASA) were very concerned some years ago, but then the situation was relieved by the (albeit sad) demise of Ansett.

Apparently the average age of an LAME in Australia (when Ansett collapsed) was something like 58, many of those now obviously retired or approaching retirement, maybe even faster now with the problems at Qantas.

Something HAS to be done.
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Old 10th Jul 2008, 23:51
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Something HAS to be done.
Yes, but why "Duct Tape" subsidies from the CASA? Like Torres, I'd love to know the cost of the CASA's administration on this one. And as we all know, the CASA has people to spare.

Heaven forbid CASA takes a page from the USA and promotes classroom studies and certification as part of a tech college course where students can get access to education support.

In the current environment, it's not the "students" that need the money, but the employers to encourage them to employ apprentices. Giving students $1000 will do absolutely nothing except maybe encourage a potential employer to bargain down the wage by another $1000.

If someone is going to do an apprenticeship, they might as well do it in the construction or automotive trades and get a better wage on completion, live in the suburbs with short commutes, have less hassle with paperwork and certification and bear less responsibility and get a better chance at owning their own business.
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Old 11th Jul 2008, 00:50
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None of that is helping the problem.

In fact part of the problem is that some Airlines, Qantas in particular, for many years terminated Apprentices as soon as they finished their Apprenticeships, instead of keeping them employed and becoming LAMEs, why on Earth would you want to give these Employers the money.

While your comments about other Industries may well be true, something NEEDS to be done urgently or Australia runs the risk VERY SOON of not being able to perform all the Aircraft Maintenance that is necessary.
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Old 11th Jul 2008, 01:04
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Sorry to thread drift but checking the Time/Date Stamp problem in this thread as PPRuNe Tech Support think the problem may be solved.

TW

Nope, still broken. Posted today at 11.04, time/date stamp shows "Yesterday, 18:04". That's odd... the difference is now -7 hours......
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Old 11th Jul 2008, 02:32
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What a croc of #$!@

$2000 only justs pay for their ridicoulus, irrelvent, and totally vauge Basic Exams. Since a lot of smaller maintenance companys these days will not employ an apprentice of the street and demand that they attend a Pre-appreticship course which takes consists of 9 months training over 12 months and it usually been 5 days week (so the apprentice has not much time left for work t0 support himself) $2000 seems a little insignificant to me.

I know pilots are in the same boat when it comes to training and that pilot training costs at least 10 times more in relation to becoming a LAME to CPL. But if you did want to increase the intake of engineers maybe we could start with three basic things.

1. Allow a student loan to the potential LAME, just the same as the pot smoking art student gets with out any hesitation.

2. Maybe increase the wage of the AME for when he first starts his apprenticship as Electricans, Plumbers, Brickies, and Chippies all out to the AME by at least 30% of his basic pay and the AME wage more reflects what a app hairdresser gets. (no joke)

3. More assistance for country kids to come into the city and train to do this apprenticship as usually there is not AME training at your local TAFE and the kid has to live out of home adding even more financial pressure to the AME and is family.

Employers that bitch about not been able to find decent apprentices fall deaf on my ears as this is basic stuff to sort out and they not intrested in it the slightest.

P.S. Oh and by the way this ridicoulous scholarship has been running for years

RRAAAANNNT

Last edited by mootyman; 11th Jul 2008 at 03:31.
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Old 11th Jul 2008, 03:33
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airsupport, you don't think part of the problem might be with the apprenticeship in the first place and companies competing on costs, where just one apprentice can make a company non-competitive? I don't want to belittle apprenticeships, but they are a couple of centuries old and hark back to Dickens' England and the days of skills/knowledge transfer between a master and his apprentice, when the apprentice was expected to stay in the trade and indebted to the company for life and assume the role of master. Much more effective and economic ways of transferring knowledge these days, but the CASA hasn't done anything to the regs in 30 years, I doubt they'll change the apprenticeship process in the next 30.

I might be wrong, but in the airline's case, apprentices are relatively cheap employees when there is a LAME as supervisor and there are plenty of willing apprentices. A shortage of LAMEs changes the whole equation because now even the apprentices can't be employed.

It's not the CASA's problem. It's an industry problem for the industry to sort out. They can do this by any number of ways, including appealing to the CASA to change examination requirements, fees, etc., but obviously the industry doesn't think the need is that great just yet, or the attractiveness of the position would be much greater. Primarily it comes down to the fact that the job is not competitive with other jobs and despite throwing a little money around and making themselves feel charitable, CASA is just guilding the lilly. It's up to the market to make the job more attractive.

Last edited by Lodown; 11th Jul 2008 at 03:57.
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Old 11th Jul 2008, 03:45
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Wave fees to make it more interesting

It cost the average LAME over $15,000 in CASA fees to get a very basic license these days due to CASA cost recovery. To make it worthwhile CASA should wave all the fees for the lucky few cadets, otherwise those lucky cadets will be making CASA a nice tidy $13,000 each by the time they become licensed.
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Old 11th Jul 2008, 04:33
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Of course you do NOT have to do an Apprenticeship to become an LAME, but I guess they are just trying to do something to relieve this impending very serious shortage of LAMEs.

The suggestion about the fees would be a good idea, I honestly didn't realise they were that high, way back in the Dark Ages when I was an Apprentice and then LAME we didn't pay any fees at all.
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Old 11th Jul 2008, 05:03
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I wouldn't worry too much, after the Carbon trading scam comes into law, Airlines wont be able to operate more then 3 aircraft anyway!
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Old 11th Jul 2008, 05:12
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I wouldn't worry too much, after the Carbon trading scam comes into law, Airlines wont be able to operate more then 3 aircraft anyway!
Sadly that is probably true too.

Although it will not affect me that much, I won't be able to afford to drive to the Airport then anyway.
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Old 11th Jul 2008, 09:20
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mootyman.

1. Allow a student loan to the potential LAME, just the same as the pot smoking art student gets with out any hesitation.

2. Maybe increase the wage of the AME for when he first starts his apprenticship as Electricans, Plumbers, Brickies, and Chippies all out to the AME by at least 30% of his basic pay and the AME wage more reflects what a app hairdresser gets. (no joke)

3. More assistance for country kids to come into the city and train to do this apprenticship as usually there is not AME training at your local TAFE and the kid has to live out of home adding even more financial pressure to the AME and is family.
1. AME training delivery for apprentices on a Training Contract is funded by the State Governments. Apprentices don't need a "student loan" as their training is Government funded.

2. Not so. The Award rates of pay for apprentices in most trades is almost the same.

3. "Country kids" or any apprentices living away from home for work or training receives a Federally funded Living Away From Home Allowance.

The question is really how to attract kids to take up a trade? The CASA grant won't give any incentive.

I said earlier:

Unbelievable!! Six States, two Territories, $8,000 per year; two years = $16,000!! And CASA thinks this meager contribution will make any difference to the number of LAMEs in Australia?
Considering the real money peak industry bodies like the Master Builders Association are bucketing into apprentice training - and the millions the Queensland Government and their aviation partners have injected into AME apprentice training at Aviation Australia - CASA's contribution of $16,000 is an insignificant drop in a very large barrel and will have no effect at all on the number of LAMEs in Australia.

If CASA was really concerned about the diminishing number of LAME in Australia, it could make a very significant contribution by waving all fees and charges in the testing and granting of an initial AME License.

Last edited by Torres; 11th Jul 2008 at 09:39.
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Old 11th Jul 2008, 10:10
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There is increasing concern being expressed within the aviation industry that there will be a shortfall in the number of Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers (LAMEs) available to meet a growing workload as the total aircraft fleet size increases and the average aircraft age rises. This problem is exacerbated in regional areas where most organizations are servicing general aviation aircraft.
While I applaud the sentiment, there is no way I would recommend to a young (or old) person a career in aircraft maintenance with an Airline.
There are to many other jobs out there that have far better employers and management style. Doing night shift on Christmas or during a Bledisloe cup match that you had tickets for is ok for the first 20 years but after that it does not get any better. You have a unique skill (one of them bleating) with few options to do anything else except same for another airline or MRO which are run by the same kind of people.

I have not worked in G.A. but I do hear their is a chronic shortage of LAMEs
I have only heard anecdotal evidence but it would appear many G.A. employers are not sympathetic to the learning curve required of the young LAME which leads to a very tenuous employee - employer relationship. As mistakes in trouble shooting etc which cost the MRO/employer is often rewarded by dismissal. This may have something to do with the average LAME age in GA is around 45 and up, as only the most experienced accurate people survive in this climate. i.e. you can't get the job without experience and you cant get experience without a job.

If you want a trade Become a good carpenter and do your building license.
If you have an urge to work on aircraft do it as a hobby. It will be much more rewarding.

Regards
Bolty
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Old 11th Jul 2008, 10:46
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Urban Sunday

To true Bolty.
If I were a carpenter, Id probably own my house by now.
Id have my weekends and rainy days off.
Id have no night shift.
My responsibility would end when the keys were handed over.(unless I was completly crap).
I wouldnt end up in jail if something went wrong.(Unless I was a complete crook).
My wife and family would see me more.
If I didnt want to do a particular job I could politely refuse rather than be threatened with the sack.
I wouldnt have a manager breathing down my neck,jumping up and down because the QF1 isnt going to make sched.
Last but not least,as long as I had half a brain I would make a lot more money (It doesnt buy happiness but sure makes for a better class of misery).
Alas I ticked the wrong box and became a Lame.
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Old 11th Jul 2008, 11:07
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Creampuff/Torres

Although I think the concept is fantastic, CASA is not the appropriate government agency to be diverting people and money to this.
The thought is nice but the concept is far from fantastic
Have to agree with both of you on this.

There is one further slightly troubling aspect of this initiative. On what legal basis does CASA provide this money?

Section 47 of the Civil Aviation Act limits what CASA can spend its money on. Section 47 provides as follows:

47 Application and investment of money
(1) CASA’s money may only be applied:

(a) in payment or discharge of the expenses, charges, obligations and liabilities incurred or undertaken by CASA in, or in connection with, the performance of its functions or the exercise of its powers; and
(b) in payment of any remuneration or allowances payable under this Act.

There’s nothing specific in CASA’s functions under section 9 of the Act that suggests that CASA can provide sponsorhips of this sort (or even sponsoring events like Safeskies) just because it thinks it’s a good idea. While it may be a good idea, it doesn’t mean that CASA can lawfully use its money for these purposes in light of section 47. And if it can’t, then this would breach section 47 as well as senior management obligations under the CAC Act. Any thoughts?
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