Merged: Virgin Blue Share Price - how low can it go and for how long?
sale and lease-back on purchase of a new aircraft is not an uncommon way to finance them. I wouldn't read anything into this. You will note that BofC has done this on three acft 'not yet delivered'...plus one that is relatively new to VB. Same paperwork for four as one!
BRISBANE: BOC Aviation has closed a purchase-and-leaseback (PLB) deal with Virgin Blue Airlines.
The deal covers one late-2008 vintage aircraft and three new Boeing 737-800 aircraft. The aircraft will be leased for an average lease term of 10 years, with delivery of the three new aircraft scheduled for the fourth quarter of this year.
Virgin Blue, Australia’s second largest airline with a 32% market share, will use the aircraft for domestic and international flying in the Pacific region.
Steven Townend, chief commercial officer and deputy MD of BOC Aviation, said the company was pleased to increase its presence in Australasia with this transaction.
“Virgin Blue is an established name in the Australian market for business and leisure travel,” he said. “We continue to deliver on our expansion plans and are happy that the airline can partner us as we grow our fleet.”
Brett Godfrey, Virgin Blue CEO, said the financing of these aircraft amidst the challenging economic environment is an affirmation of Virgin Blue’s strong reputation in the market.
"We look forward to a long-lasting business relationship with BOC Aviation.”
BOC Aviation is the leading Asia-based aircraft leasing company with a portfolio of 104 modern aircraft operated by airlines worldwide. In addition, the company has 70 aircraft on firm order for delivery through to 2013. BOC Aviation has one of the youngest fleets in the industry with an average aircraft age of less than four years.
BOC Aviation is 100% owned by Bank of China
BRISBANE: BOC Aviation has closed a purchase-and-leaseback (PLB) deal with Virgin Blue Airlines.
The deal covers one late-2008 vintage aircraft and three new Boeing 737-800 aircraft. The aircraft will be leased for an average lease term of 10 years, with delivery of the three new aircraft scheduled for the fourth quarter of this year.
Virgin Blue, Australia’s second largest airline with a 32% market share, will use the aircraft for domestic and international flying in the Pacific region.
Steven Townend, chief commercial officer and deputy MD of BOC Aviation, said the company was pleased to increase its presence in Australasia with this transaction.
“Virgin Blue is an established name in the Australian market for business and leisure travel,” he said. “We continue to deliver on our expansion plans and are happy that the airline can partner us as we grow our fleet.”
Brett Godfrey, Virgin Blue CEO, said the financing of these aircraft amidst the challenging economic environment is an affirmation of Virgin Blue’s strong reputation in the market.
"We look forward to a long-lasting business relationship with BOC Aviation.”
BOC Aviation is the leading Asia-based aircraft leasing company with a portfolio of 104 modern aircraft operated by airlines worldwide. In addition, the company has 70 aircraft on firm order for delivery through to 2013. BOC Aviation has one of the youngest fleets in the industry with an average aircraft age of less than four years.
BOC Aviation is 100% owned by Bank of China
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abc1, Please tell me you are not serious?
Dude, stop grasping at straws.
Revenue in isolation does not matter.
Revenue minus outgoings, well that is another story.
Revenue can keep going up until the cows come home, however if outgoings keep rising at a faster rate then, well, that can only go on for so long.
Is there anyone else out there saying that VB did not have an underlying profit of 60 million, that their cash position is precarious, that their annual and half yearly reports are declining in the clarity of information provided?
errrr, no. Strewth, maybe the opinions I'm writing are...mine? What a novel concept.
I have an emotional bias for VB to survive, however, I don't belive it will. Just because I argue that fact does not indicate anything. What I really want is for someone to prove me wrong. That would make me extremely happy, however all that comes back is vitriol like the statement below.
I would love to debate the specifics, truly I would, if anyone would care to.
tsalta
Revenue in isolation does not matter.
Revenue minus outgoings, well that is another story.
Revenue can keep going up until the cows come home, however if outgoings keep rising at a faster rate then, well, that can only go on for so long.
Is there anyone else out there saying that VB did not have an underlying profit of 60 million, that their cash position is precarious, that their annual and half yearly reports are declining in the clarity of information provided?
errrr, no. Strewth, maybe the opinions I'm writing are...mine? What a novel concept.
I have an emotional bias for VB to survive, however, I don't belive it will. Just because I argue that fact does not indicate anything. What I really want is for someone to prove me wrong. That would make me extremely happy, however all that comes back is vitriol like the statement below.
Are there any REAL (not tsalta) aviation accountants here that know these issues in any depth ?
tsalta
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sale and lease-back on purchase of a new aircraft is not an uncommon way to finance them. I wouldn't read anything into this
VB was locked into aircraft purchases that just can not be supported in terms of finance repayments in this depression like market with plummetting yields. I suspect it was either sale and lease back now to delay the inevitable or close the doors immediately.
abc1 - Have a closer look at the last VB and Rio reports. You are comparing apples with oranges.
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Happy to correct
Don't worry Slice..... At the end of the day we are all armchair experts, each and everyone of us...
Skystar, if you would like to provide a dissertation on why you belive VB is in such a great position, I would love to read it.
regards
tsalta
Last edited by tsalta; 3rd Mar 2009 at 09:59.
ANstar - net cash flow was negative $79.6m, this was propped up by $266m in loans and $18m in tax refund, hence why equity has dropped off. Operating cash flow was positive but the balance sheet is very complex at the moment due to the losses and tax fiddling going on. The core company would not have made $60m net because they would have had to pay tax on it, but because of the losses tax was refunded.
abc1 - Rio is in trouble if it can not reduce its debt levels, this is why they are contemplating massive asset sales to the chinese (or anyone else) at the moment.
abc1 - Rio is in trouble if it can not reduce its debt levels, this is why they are contemplating massive asset sales to the chinese (or anyone else) at the moment.
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Assuming the previous post will be deleted:
Please, all I would like:
PLEASE...........
SOMEONE..........
Show me where the underlying 60 million profit was.....................
PLEASE..................................................
ANYONE..............................................
PLEASE.....................................................
(without emotion, just math, where the F##K, is the underlying profit????)
tsalta
Please, all I would like:
PLEASE...........
SOMEONE..........
Show me where the underlying 60 million profit was.....................
PLEASE..................................................
ANYONE..............................................
PLEASE.....................................................
(without emotion, just math, where the F##K, is the underlying profit????)
tsalta
Last edited by tsalta; 2nd Mar 2009 at 21:41. Reason: clarity and sarcasm
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Virgin Blue are mulling an aircraft order.
Unusual given their position
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-aircraft.html
Unusual given their position
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-aircraft.html
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Anstar,
You are a hypocritical clown.
One minute you are into Tsalta for calling VB's true state.
The next you are commenting on their position. (with a negative connotation)
Good God, I hope I never fly with you in QF. I'll never know where you stand.
You are a hypocritical clown.
One minute you are into Tsalta for calling VB's true state.
The next you are commenting on their position. (with a negative connotation)
Good God, I hope I never fly with you in QF. I'll never know where you stand.
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Hypocritical ... No.
I have just tried to post info about Virgin that does not suggest they cant pay their bills after next month.
I never said it was all rosey with them. just not as bad as everyone here is making out. (Some people seem intent on hoping 5000 people become unemployed)
Now as for placing a new aircraft order - I would think QF/DJ would all be stupid to do so right now given the current downturn in travel.
I have just tried to post info about Virgin that does not suggest they cant pay their bills after next month.
I never said it was all rosey with them. just not as bad as everyone here is making out. (Some people seem intent on hoping 5000 people become unemployed)
Now as for placing a new aircraft order - I would think QF/DJ would all be stupid to do so right now given the current downturn in travel.
As stated in the article this is purely a fleet renewal purchase. VB appears to have a 10 year timeframe for equipment, which was alluded to a few years back that fleet renewal was to commence in 2010-11. This to me is the greatest threat to the airline as having low time modern airframes is key to their marketing and strategy. Also with the rapid expansion of the group there are a lot of aircraft to replace in a short timeframe.
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abc and others
So you have nothing...
Not withstanding my rebuttal to your post, you have nothing of substance to offer.
Would you like to challenge me to show my reasoning that VB does not have a 60 mill underlying profit?
Would you like to challenge me to show my reasoning that VB is in a precarious cash position?
Would you you like to challenge me to show why VB's reports have been decaying in the veracity of the inforamtion provided?
I know the answers to the above, so I am not going to give them to you. I am more than happy to lead you to the conclusion, but you must arrive there yourself.
I understand you are a loyal VB employee. I get it. I really do.
I admire that. I really do. I know you don't believe me, but I do!
I DO NOT WISH VB TO FAIL. I HOPE IT ENDURES, HOWEVER IT THE CURRENT FORM, WITH THE CURRENT BUSINESS MODEL, IT IS DOOMED.
So, how many times can I ask......................................debate the issue.
tsalta
Not withstanding my rebuttal to your post, you have nothing of substance to offer.
Would you like to challenge me to show my reasoning that VB does not have a 60 mill underlying profit?
Would you like to challenge me to show my reasoning that VB is in a precarious cash position?
Would you you like to challenge me to show why VB's reports have been decaying in the veracity of the inforamtion provided?
I know the answers to the above, so I am not going to give them to you. I am more than happy to lead you to the conclusion, but you must arrive there yourself.
I understand you are a loyal VB employee. I get it. I really do.
I admire that. I really do. I know you don't believe me, but I do!
I DO NOT WISH VB TO FAIL. I HOPE IT ENDURES, HOWEVER IT THE CURRENT FORM, WITH THE CURRENT BUSINESS MODEL, IT IS DOOMED.
So, how many times can I ask......................................debate the issue.
tsalta
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Closed at 22.5 cents
Yes Betsy- they finished the day (Tue 3 Mar 09)- at 22.5 cents.
Below is the 2 yr monthly chart ex the ASX site:
Many have previously expressed their concerns for those involved, regarding their well-being and welfare if this situation does get too close to the breeze....... none of us here will solve or influence this, unless you actually have a chair at Breakfast Creek- anyone,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, anyone............
For what it's worth (as angels retire to safer ground, aware of the caveat on this forum)- this thread does have longevity over what will prove to be (yes- that is my opinion, alone) a significant period of time on the journey that is VB- being the Toll Dilution (for want of a term) and the prosecution of the New World Strategy....
Without being altruistic- could we not leave the Moderators of this forum with no option, but to close it- as they have been forced to do in recent times- if you want to play the man could you do it off the paddock.............. the baiting and name calling really does not enhance your contribution or the value of input.
You may actually be surprised at what experience you have/and will contribute here as this unfolds.................. Maybe, Maybe
Hat, Flak-Jacket, Coat, Door, Bunker, Fuel Missiles
Just thought I'd have a go- as it is starting to look to me like 'not professional Aviation'- Rgds S28- BE.
Below is the 2 yr monthly chart ex the ASX site:
VBA, VIRGIN BLUE HOLDINGS ORD
The chart of monthly prices over 2 years for security VBA
ASX excludes all liability arising out of any inaccuracies in this Chart, except where liability is made non-excludable by legislation. Chart values may be adjusted for changes in a company's capital structure or to link historical values that represent the company's primary equity security.
The chart of monthly prices over 2 years for security VBA
ASX excludes all liability arising out of any inaccuracies in this Chart, except where liability is made non-excludable by legislation. Chart values may be adjusted for changes in a company's capital structure or to link historical values that represent the company's primary equity security.
For what it's worth (as angels retire to safer ground, aware of the caveat on this forum)- this thread does have longevity over what will prove to be (yes- that is my opinion, alone) a significant period of time on the journey that is VB- being the Toll Dilution (for want of a term) and the prosecution of the New World Strategy....
Without being altruistic- could we not leave the Moderators of this forum with no option, but to close it- as they have been forced to do in recent times- if you want to play the man could you do it off the paddock.............. the baiting and name calling really does not enhance your contribution or the value of input.
You may actually be surprised at what experience you have/and will contribute here as this unfolds.................. Maybe, Maybe
Hat, Flak-Jacket, Coat, Door, Bunker, Fuel Missiles
Just thought I'd have a go- as it is starting to look to me like 'not professional Aviation'- Rgds S28- BE.
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If Tiger gets their 30 aircraft Australian fleet by 2014 as the MD, Shelley Roberts, has suggested, how will this affect Virgin Blue ?
Tigers' costs are supposedly lower than Jetstar and much lower than VB.
Tigers' costs are supposedly lower than Jetstar and much lower than VB.
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abc1,
Once again a nothing post.
My contention is VB did not make an underlying 60 million dollar profit, their cash position is a whole lot worse than is indicated, and their reports are presented in such a fashion to make it difficult to discern the above.
If you or anyone else would like to put forward a 'valid opinion' counter argument against those, then I am all ears and will answer with reasonableness and dignity. However when you post drivel such as your last post I'll treat it with the contempt it deserves.
Have you actually read your last post? What are you on about? Where did the EBA reference come from? What is the consensus you are on about? It is complete and utter nonsense.
tsalta
Once again a nothing post.
My contention is VB did not make an underlying 60 million dollar profit, their cash position is a whole lot worse than is indicated, and their reports are presented in such a fashion to make it difficult to discern the above.
If you or anyone else would like to put forward a 'valid opinion' counter argument against those, then I am all ears and will answer with reasonableness and dignity. However when you post drivel such as your last post I'll treat it with the contempt it deserves.
Have you actually read your last post? What are you on about? Where did the EBA reference come from? What is the consensus you are on about? It is complete and utter nonsense.
tsalta
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abc1 or whoever you are.
This topic IS about VB's share price and the reasons it's where it is.
It is VERY valid to talk about VB's profit and loss statements and what they mean, as it is a fundamental part of the company's financial performance.
I have no idea who tsalta is, and don't really care, BUT he is talking to the topic directly and makes valid comments about the true net profitability of the Virgin Blue group.
The latest balance sheet is very cleverly "constructed". Some insiders are asking is it a smoke and mirrors job ? I actually read the numbers in terms of a negative cash flow of over $70 m.
Would you care to give us your opinion on this last set of figures, as your response would certainly address the topic directly.
This topic IS about VB's share price and the reasons it's where it is.
It is VERY valid to talk about VB's profit and loss statements and what they mean, as it is a fundamental part of the company's financial performance.
I have no idea who tsalta is, and don't really care, BUT he is talking to the topic directly and makes valid comments about the true net profitability of the Virgin Blue group.
The latest balance sheet is very cleverly "constructed". Some insiders are asking is it a smoke and mirrors job ? I actually read the numbers in terms of a negative cash flow of over $70 m.
Would you care to give us your opinion on this last set of figures, as your response would certainly address the topic directly.
Last edited by mrs nomer; 3rd Mar 2009 at 22:39.