US ATCs call for ADS-B Moratorium
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US ATCs call for ADS-B Moratorium
An article (see here) from Aviation International News Online headed “Natca calls for NextGen Moratorium” makes interesting reading – especially the quote attributed to the US air traffic controllers’ union President, Patrick Forrey:
Those who read this article and agree with the principle of it must also want to know what is happening here in Australia. I ran a short campaign communicating some of the doubts in relation to ADS-B – especially the ease with which it could be “spoofed”. Other than Airservices cancelling a contract with a Queensland company to develop ADS-B, there has not been a word about the future of the proposed low level ADS-B system.
A second article headed “Back to drawing board on ADS-B proposal” (see here) also makes important reading for those involved in the Australian aviation industry.
The following claim by the Acting FAA Administrator Bobby Sturgell in relation to the benefits of ADS-B is just about as incorrect as similar claims made here in Australia. He states:
Airservices showed the costs of ADS-B “out”, but then linked it with the benefits of ADS-B “in” – which was not costed, does not exist in a certified form, and could be very expensive.
It appears that the FAA is now going to come up with a completely new proposal. Let’s hope Airservices does the same thing!
He said the FAA should suspend all work on the $1.8 billion automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) contract until a reappraisal of NextGen is completed.
A second article headed “Back to drawing board on ADS-B proposal” (see here) also makes important reading for those involved in the Australian aviation industry.
The following claim by the Acting FAA Administrator Bobby Sturgell in relation to the benefits of ADS-B is just about as incorrect as similar claims made here in Australia. He states:
within the cockpit, pilots will know where other airplanes are around them.
It appears that the FAA is now going to come up with a completely new proposal. Let’s hope Airservices does the same thing!
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As usual you have picked the eyes out of a half-understood article and presented a couple of morsels you think support your deluded views. You imply the NATCA boss is supporting your ridiculous fears of spoof on the radar screens when it just isn't there. Mr. Forrey is fighting to have some of his outdated radars upgraded rather than 'replaced' by ADSB. Fine, but we are creating a network where none now exists. It is not the same situation, by suggesting it is you are trying to mislead people again. Shame, shame, shame.
The other quote completely contradicts your pining for the Septic's proposed domestic ADSB system, "the current plan
and I would support them in that. Bring on the squitters.
The other quote completely contradicts your pining for the Septic's proposed domestic ADSB system, "the current plan
calls for a Porsche when a Chevy can do the job” and would not increase system capacity, efficiency or environmental performance.
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Here we go again
What will ADSB do for small aircraft other than require more equipment and expense? We already have GPS for navigation. What is needed is up to date, graphical weather information available in flight. We are told that the original claims of traffic information are false, so it is not worth buying.
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Spodman, I don’t know why you have to go into a personal attack. I have in no way implied that the NATCA boss is supporting my claims in relation to the “spoofing” on radar screens of ADS-B.
If you look at my post I simply mentioned my short campaign which was on this issue and seemed to stop Airservices in their tracks. If it wasn’t this campaign, what stopped them?
In other articles it is clear that the FAA has concerns in relation to spoofing, and that is why they are looking at a combined ADS-B/multi-lateration system.
How can I be trying to mislead people by posting links to the two articles? It is almost as if you don’t want viewers of this website being informed so they can make their own rational decisions.
As I have said before, I am a strong supporter of ADS-B, but not for Australia to go it alone with an invented system – then claiming that some of the advantages (such as ADS-B “in”) are included when the costing is only done for ADS-B “out.”
Spodman, can you advise why we have had almost complete silence from Airservices in the last 6 months in relation to the low level ADS-B system. What is actually happening? Presumably all of the deadlines have now past, so I can’t quite see how the proposed subsidised system can meet the dates that were originally claimed.
By the way, do you have a vested interest in the Airservices proposal going ahead? If so, what is it?
If you look at my post I simply mentioned my short campaign which was on this issue and seemed to stop Airservices in their tracks. If it wasn’t this campaign, what stopped them?
In other articles it is clear that the FAA has concerns in relation to spoofing, and that is why they are looking at a combined ADS-B/multi-lateration system.
How can I be trying to mislead people by posting links to the two articles? It is almost as if you don’t want viewers of this website being informed so they can make their own rational decisions.
As I have said before, I am a strong supporter of ADS-B, but not for Australia to go it alone with an invented system – then claiming that some of the advantages (such as ADS-B “in”) are included when the costing is only done for ADS-B “out.”
Spodman, can you advise why we have had almost complete silence from Airservices in the last 6 months in relation to the low level ADS-B system. What is actually happening? Presumably all of the deadlines have now past, so I can’t quite see how the proposed subsidised system can meet the dates that were originally claimed.
By the way, do you have a vested interest in the Airservices proposal going ahead? If so, what is it?
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Spodman, can you advise why we have had almost complete silence from Airservices in the last 6 months in relation to the low level ADS-B system. What is actually happening? Presumably all of the deadlines have now past, so I can’t quite see how the proposed subsidised system can meet the dates that were originally claimed.
Did you say TIBA? Try recovering TIBA in a procedural environment, "all stations ATC is back, who's there?"
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Most small a/c are not ALL small a/c and not all are fitted with a Mode C, so when one smacks into an A320/B717/Q400 at a CTAF R with no Radar coverage, ask the victims relatives about what the benefit would be.
A small ADSB out is not a real impost on us, and it has some other benefits aprt from a bigger bird running into us.
ADSB is the future......... some just have not seen it yet.
Mr Radar salesman would of course disagree 100%
J
Most small a/c are not ALL small a/c and not all are fitted with a Mode C, so when one smacks into an A320/B717/Q400 at a CTAF R with no Radar coverage, ask the victims relatives about what the benefit would be.
A small ADSB out is not a real impost on us, and it has some other benefits aprt from a bigger bird running into us.
ADSB is the future......... some just have not seen it yet.
Mr Radar salesman would of course disagree 100%
J
Dick, I am still waiting to be a believer.
EDIT- some may take that the wrong way.
To add further Our ATCO also said-
So one could infer that were there is no facility then our man in the US would agree that ADS-B is cost effective!
Our mate does want to upgrade his radar heads and one must remember that the ATC union pulled the RADAR like separation standards for CAPSTONE (I believe it was pressure on the local FAA to pull the plug on the CAPSTONE screens used by the ATC operators). I actually wrote to the guys over in Alaska about this very subject. They were told to refer any quiery up the chain. This guy was the equivalent of our Mr Dunstone.
EDIT- some may take that the wrong way.
To add further Our ATCO also said-
Unlike the high cost, long lead time, technical risk and uncertain value of ADS-B implementation in airspace that is already covered by radar, oceanic ADS-B is an order of magnitude less complex and less ex- pensive,” Forrey said.
Our mate does want to upgrade his radar heads and one must remember that the ATC union pulled the RADAR like separation standards for CAPSTONE (I believe it was pressure on the local FAA to pull the plug on the CAPSTONE screens used by the ATC operators). I actually wrote to the guys over in Alaska about this very subject. They were told to refer any quiery up the chain. This guy was the equivalent of our Mr Dunstone.
Last edited by OZBUSDRIVER; 12th Jun 2008 at 09:56.
Interesting timing on Dicks part - it comes on the day that NATCA finally got to have their say on the hill about the FAA's mismanagement of their controller staffing levels. Three times the controllers expected by the FAA to retire quit over the last two years - a total of 1800! They have been on imposed work rules for 2 years because the Bush government would not negotiate a fair contract.
The FAA and the airways system is in total dissaray as a result.
The FAA have touted ADS-B and NextGen as the saviours to these problems - it seems nobody is buying it. The controllers never bought it.
ATC ground stop delays into and out of the NY/Boston/Washington triangle regularly exceed 3 hours.
The downturn in traffic that is occurring there (despite their great NAS system!) is going to be a safety blessing in disguise.
If you want to see what the real story is there a number of websites that have been following this - the best first stop is ex-Avweb writer Don Browns Blog at gettheflick.b l o g s p o t.com - most other sites link off from Don's.
The FAA and the airways system is in total dissaray as a result.
The FAA have touted ADS-B and NextGen as the saviours to these problems - it seems nobody is buying it. The controllers never bought it.
ATC ground stop delays into and out of the NY/Boston/Washington triangle regularly exceed 3 hours.
The downturn in traffic that is occurring there (despite their great NAS system!) is going to be a safety blessing in disguise.
If you want to see what the real story is there a number of websites that have been following this - the best first stop is ex-Avweb writer Don Browns Blog at gettheflick.b l o g s p o t.com - most other sites link off from Don's.
Last edited by BN APP 125.6; 13th Jun 2008 at 03:10.
Thread Starter
Up until about a decade ago, the FAA Administrator was always an aviation professional – either with a background as a pilot or an air traffic controller. Then some genius in the Federal Government decided that they would use non-aviation people in the position of Administrator. It is well known that the FAA Administrators in recent times have been females with a background in administration and zero knowledge of the operational side of aviation. Look what has happened.
The same situation occurred here in Australia. John Anderson de-skilled the CASA Board and ended up installing a Chairman with a marine background. The CASA Board became so useless it was abolished.
Look at what happened with Airservices. John Anderson put a farmer on the Board as Chairman, and was obviously intent on de-skilling the rest of the Board positions. The inevitable happened. That is, we are having the same problems in Australia as the US is having.
I wrote to the new Minister about 4 months ago suggesting that they place a retired air traffic controller on the Airservices Board. I even provided a name of a very competent controller from South Australia. I received no answer and I note that there are no people with air traffic control experience on the Airservices Board.
The same situation occurred here in Australia. John Anderson de-skilled the CASA Board and ended up installing a Chairman with a marine background. The CASA Board became so useless it was abolished.
Look at what happened with Airservices. John Anderson put a farmer on the Board as Chairman, and was obviously intent on de-skilling the rest of the Board positions. The inevitable happened. That is, we are having the same problems in Australia as the US is having.
I wrote to the new Minister about 4 months ago suggesting that they place a retired air traffic controller on the Airservices Board. I even provided a name of a very competent controller from South Australia. I received no answer and I note that there are no people with air traffic control experience on the Airservices Board.
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Look at what happened with Airservices. John Anderson put a farmer on the Board as Chairman, and was obviously intent on de-skilling the rest of the Board positions. The inevitable happened. That is, we are having the same problems in Australia as the US is having.
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Dick,
Not casting rocks at the South Australian controller, as I have no idea who you are talking about, but what criteria are YOU judging that this person is "a very competent controller" .
However it would be nice to have someone(anyone) up top, who has at least an inkling of what our 'core' business actually is.
Not casting rocks at the South Australian controller, as I have no idea who you are talking about, but what criteria are YOU judging that this person is "a very competent controller" .
However it would be nice to have someone(anyone) up top, who has at least an inkling of what our 'core' business actually is.
BN APP 125.6 Thanks for that link. It is a shame. the fight is truely worldwide. The day of the beancounter is fast closing. The people behind the screen create the wealth for AIrNoServices. Without motivation and training NOW things are going to be far worse.
This trainwreck has been coming in Australia since the Hawke years.
Dick, I like the way you exclude yourself from the comparison to non-controller or non-pilot chairmen of de-skilled boards. Very classy, mate
This trainwreck has been coming in Australia since the Hawke years.
Dick, I like the way you exclude yourself from the comparison to non-controller or non-pilot chairmen of de-skilled boards. Very classy, mate
If you are reall interested in following up the debacle that the US airspace system has become, and the incredible way their controllers have been treated by the Bush Government, here are some links worth following:
http://currentandundertow.*************.com
(replace the ****** with b l o g s p o t )
The video link to the testimony yesterday is here (it is 3 hrs long, over 2 sessions - the second session is 3 air traffic controllers telling it how it is - the 1st session if a bunch of suits from the FAA pretending how good it is, except when the President of NATCA then shoots it all down in flames)
http://transportation.edgeboss.net/w...20080611av.wvx
To see the extent of delays check this website every day or two - especially when a little bit if weather moves through http://fly.faa.gov
The FAA has gotten so far back on the curve with their controller recruitment and remuneration that it is now unrecoverable, except with a massive reduction in service provision.
NextGen and ADS-B are going to do nothing to solve the mess of the US NAS.
And this is not just my view - last month I spoke with controllers in the US NorthEast, and they are convinced - indeed they convinced me with compelling arguments, delivered with the same conviction you will see in the video of the testimony above.
http://currentandundertow.*************.com
(replace the ****** with b l o g s p o t )
The video link to the testimony yesterday is here (it is 3 hrs long, over 2 sessions - the second session is 3 air traffic controllers telling it how it is - the 1st session if a bunch of suits from the FAA pretending how good it is, except when the President of NATCA then shoots it all down in flames)
http://transportation.edgeboss.net/w...20080611av.wvx
To see the extent of delays check this website every day or two - especially when a little bit if weather moves through http://fly.faa.gov
The FAA has gotten so far back on the curve with their controller recruitment and remuneration that it is now unrecoverable, except with a massive reduction in service provision.
NextGen and ADS-B are going to do nothing to solve the mess of the US NAS.
And this is not just my view - last month I spoke with controllers in the US NorthEast, and they are convinced - indeed they convinced me with compelling arguments, delivered with the same conviction you will see in the video of the testimony above.
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"a very competent controller"
Ignore the personal stuff about Dick and just repel his arguments if you disagree with them.
Facts tend to slice nicely away at BS and reveal skinny straw men I have always found.
Incidentally, a nice editorial summary of the days sitting in Congress:
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/...WS01/806120431
I think ADS-B is the least of their concerns - or priorities in the US.
ADS-B will probably have a similar fate here if we do not get enough staff to be able to release people from time to time to work on these projects.
As things are I am aware that most radar & procedural controllers have not been able to do any simulator refresher training for over 2 years!
Lets not even mention TIBA and how much fuel that is costing the airlines who require to fly around it. Apparently last week aircraft flying BN-TL were routing via LAV and west to ROM (?) to stay in CTA at night.
Expect to hear a whisper campaign from those above - and possibly even the airlines themselves - that this is coordinated industrial action by the controllers.
It is not.
There simply are not enough controllers - recruitment, retention & training have not occurred despite pleas from the controllers themselves. (Anyone seeing any parallels with the FAA story above?). The CEO of Airservices himself has publically stated he thinks his controllers are working too much overtime.
But hey, they do make a nice scapegoat - evil greedy unions
!
And it has already started - witness the 'leaked' but selectively quoted 'pay claim' in the friendly Australian last week.
This nonsense will not help save the airlines fuel.
Facts tend to slice nicely away at BS and reveal skinny straw men I have always found.
Incidentally, a nice editorial summary of the days sitting in Congress:
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/...WS01/806120431
I think ADS-B is the least of their concerns - or priorities in the US.
ADS-B will probably have a similar fate here if we do not get enough staff to be able to release people from time to time to work on these projects.
As things are I am aware that most radar & procedural controllers have not been able to do any simulator refresher training for over 2 years!
Lets not even mention TIBA and how much fuel that is costing the airlines who require to fly around it. Apparently last week aircraft flying BN-TL were routing via LAV and west to ROM (?) to stay in CTA at night.
Expect to hear a whisper campaign from those above - and possibly even the airlines themselves - that this is coordinated industrial action by the controllers.
It is not.
There simply are not enough controllers - recruitment, retention & training have not occurred despite pleas from the controllers themselves. (Anyone seeing any parallels with the FAA story above?). The CEO of Airservices himself has publically stated he thinks his controllers are working too much overtime.
But hey, they do make a nice scapegoat - evil greedy unions
!And it has already started - witness the 'leaked' but selectively quoted 'pay claim' in the friendly Australian last week.
This nonsense will not help save the airlines fuel.
