Jet* Importing Pilots
short flights long nights
Ahh!!!..post number 48 is interesting.."if you were not ex AN (an that would be post 89 AN) you cant get anywhere"
How many are sitting overseas that would like to come back and cant, because they are "blocked" by JetStar.
Is Laurie doing anything about this, or just letting 457 holders flood through the door?
Interesting times.....
How many are sitting overseas that would like to come back and cant, because they are "blocked" by JetStar.
Is Laurie doing anything about this, or just letting 457 holders flood through the door?
Interesting times.....
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So if I read the EBA numbers right, FOs got close to zero pay rise and A330 CNs got the most payrise.
Therefore making Command A330 attractive to direct entry from overseas, and leaving the FOs to rot on the vine as they are bypassed.
So how do they feel about it?
Therefore making Command A330 attractive to direct entry from overseas, and leaving the FOs to rot on the vine as they are bypassed.
So how do they feel about it?
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Got this today. Another example of Dixon inspiring his troops....
QANTAS STATEMENT ON PILOT RECRUITMENT
SYDNEY, 26 May 2008: Qantas confirmed today that Jetstar was supplementing its extensive domestic recruitment for pilots by using 457 visas to recruit some pilots from overseas.
The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said that Jetstar had recruited 200 pilots in Australia since January 2007 and, on average, recruited 15 pilots per month.
“In addition, Qantas separately has recruited 170 new pilots this financial year and more than 300 existing Qantas pilots have received upgrade training in the same period.”
Mr Dixon said Qantas and Jetstar were separate airlines with their own individual pilot and training requirements.
“Nearly all the Qantas Group of pilots are recruited in Australia, despite piloting being very much a global profession.
“Indeed, many Australian pilots choose to fly with overseas airlines throughout their careers.”
Mr Dixon said the Group spent millions of dollars each year recruiting and training pilots.
“We also have an extensive cadet program, which we continue to expand. Nobody does more to grow the pool of skilled pilots in this country than we do.”
QANTAS STATEMENT ON PILOT RECRUITMENT
SYDNEY, 26 May 2008: Qantas confirmed today that Jetstar was supplementing its extensive domestic recruitment for pilots by using 457 visas to recruit some pilots from overseas.
The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said that Jetstar had recruited 200 pilots in Australia since January 2007 and, on average, recruited 15 pilots per month.
“In addition, Qantas separately has recruited 170 new pilots this financial year and more than 300 existing Qantas pilots have received upgrade training in the same period.”
Mr Dixon said Qantas and Jetstar were separate airlines with their own individual pilot and training requirements.
“Nearly all the Qantas Group of pilots are recruited in Australia, despite piloting being very much a global profession.
“Indeed, many Australian pilots choose to fly with overseas airlines throughout their careers.”
Mr Dixon said the Group spent millions of dollars each year recruiting and training pilots.
“We also have an extensive cadet program, which we continue to expand. Nobody does more to grow the pool of skilled pilots in this country than we do.”
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action time >>
Now I have been following this topic for a long time being an Australian Pilot who has had an application with Jetstar for a long time /very well experienced ( lotza jet time and the rest) and meet all minimums reqd and alas no invitation for interview !!
OK thats their choice give it to another they consider more suitable ..No worries > as its their train set / I have no problem with that..
BUT Give that job to a NON AUSTRALIAN bought in on a 457 Visa that requires that NO SUITABLE Australian applicants exist to fill the position ??? Well thats just Illegal as the 457 requires >>>> NO Suitable Applicants .
So Rather than bleed and bitch on this forum there is an Australian Ombudsman that will inviestigate why an Australian Government Agency has isssued these Visa's when the conditions have not been satisfied..
If you like me no longer buy the rhetoric that recruitment is on hold due 787 delays and feel like making an offical complaint as I have .. see below for the LINK..
http://www.comb.gov.au/
Foreigners in my city doing a job I am able to do and may even be more experienced to do than them ??
No we have the legal right to challenge this one... / more complaints the better
OK thats their choice give it to another they consider more suitable ..No worries > as its their train set / I have no problem with that..
BUT Give that job to a NON AUSTRALIAN bought in on a 457 Visa that requires that NO SUITABLE Australian applicants exist to fill the position ??? Well thats just Illegal as the 457 requires >>>> NO Suitable Applicants .
So Rather than bleed and bitch on this forum there is an Australian Ombudsman that will inviestigate why an Australian Government Agency has isssued these Visa's when the conditions have not been satisfied..
If you like me no longer buy the rhetoric that recruitment is on hold due 787 delays and feel like making an offical complaint as I have .. see below for the LINK..
http://www.comb.gov.au/
Foreigners in my city doing a job I am able to do and may even be more experienced to do than them ??
No we have the legal right to challenge this one... / more complaints the better
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For those that missed it:
Now I know a few worthy candidates for a seat at j*. What a load of crock. This j* guy has the attitude of a total cock. It seems like a perfect plan to keep the workforce under control.
Now I know a few worthy candidates for a seat at j*. What a load of crock. This j* guy has the attitude of a total cock. It seems like a perfect plan to keep the workforce under control.
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As a long time aviator in this country and holding one of the top jobs anyone can aspire to in Australia I just despair at the way "my" company is carrying out its industrial relations and pilot recruitment. Unfortunately nothing will happen because everyone will bitch and moan on pprune and qrewroom and history shows no one, I repeat no one, will have the balls to lead a concerted push, within the "protected" industrial arena to try and stop it. Qrewroom/AIPA is full of arrogant dickheads fighting amongst themselves and previous administrations trying to big note themselves because their ego is so big they can't let it go. Everyone huffs and puffs on pprune but does anyone do anything other than send an email to their local member who, if they are Labour, have shown their true colours after only 6 months. Has anyone organised the numbers for a special AIPA AGM to get this sorted? No. Has anyone approached the AFAP? No. For all you young guys who see this as a direct assault against your career paths get off your collective asses and work hard to correct it. It doesn't affect me because I am a senior Captain in mainline but I will support you all the way because I am sick and tired of Dixon and Co destroying this Company that I have grown to love,the careers of those who built it and those who will continue the tradition.
Last edited by Jed Clampett; 26th May 2008 at 11:56.
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Suitable - that is the key word.
Does a bush pilot with 1000hrs become more suitable than a pilot with 10000plus hours, worldwide operations, heavy airplane experience.
Can't see the legal battle working really. Sorry
Does a bush pilot with 1000hrs become more suitable than a pilot with 10000plus hours, worldwide operations, heavy airplane experience.
Can't see the legal battle working really. Sorry
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So if I read the EBA numbers right, FOs got close to zero pay rise and A330 CNs got the most payrise.
But just like most of the crap I have read on the previous pages of this topic, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.
I couldn't be bothered with the names but look at the posters moaning that they have the experience for a direct entry command, obviously happy to jump over others already there, if only the money was better or whatever. Are they concerned for existing Jetstar FO's, No, just want the money improved so that they can have that command instead of a 457 potential applicant on the existing T&Cs.
Or the bloke that reckons ten year QF FO's are ready for Jetstar A330 commands ahead of existing qualified and experienced Jetstar A320 Captains.
I think there are a whole lot of self interested hippocrites out there in pprune land, who espouse one theory but for self interest believe in another.
All willing to slag off at Jetstar, Jetstar pilots and the AFAP because they can't have their own way. A pretty sad state of affairs.
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Well said Jed
Laurie wake up and start doing something positive.
Given there is such a shortage, and given the money being offered in the Gulf, why are these South African's available to come to such low paid jobs? Could there be a standards issue about to hit?
Laurie wake up and start doing something positive.
Given there is such a shortage, and given the money being offered in the Gulf, why are these South African's available to come to such low paid jobs? Could there be a standards issue about to hit?
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Got around 8000 hrs, No jet time but mostly shiploads of Dash time, offered J* interview. Decided to give them a miss after reviewing the pay-for-endo, the crap renumeration and the anecdotal evidence from friends inside getting flogged, having to pay for everything etc. Perhaps we should enlighten the general public on these realities.
One bloke said "just like a large disorganised GA operator really - with jets"
If you ask me, most people may accept Jet* conditions just to get their foot in the door - with future plans not involving budget carriers at all. No wonder they are having trouble recruiting experienced aussies. What have they got to offer? The 457 visa is unbelievable and unwarranted in this case.
One bloke said "just like a large disorganised GA operator really - with jets"
If you ask me, most people may accept Jet* conditions just to get their foot in the door - with future plans not involving budget carriers at all. No wonder they are having trouble recruiting experienced aussies. What have they got to offer? The 457 visa is unbelievable and unwarranted in this case.
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After the 89' pilots dispute Australian pilots found jobs in all 4 corners of the globe.
Today, Australian pilots continue to work around the globe.
I cannot believe that we as a group are so xenophobic as to to expect the rest of the world to accept us whilst simultaneously locking them out.
Shame, shame shame.
Today, Australian pilots continue to work around the globe.
I cannot believe that we as a group are so xenophobic as to to expect the rest of the world to accept us whilst simultaneously locking them out.
Shame, shame shame.
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Keg - the reason that you cannot vote on the SH award is because in your case it is not the relevant industrial instrument and therefore you are not directly affected by it. But you already knew that, just that you thought Laurie didn't.
By contrast the AWA pilots in Jetstar were directly affected by the EBA result, hence their correct inclusion in the final vote. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.
Command must be going well eh.......
By contrast the AWA pilots in Jetstar were directly affected by the EBA result, hence their correct inclusion in the final vote. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.
Command must be going well eh.......
Last edited by VH-JJW; 26th May 2008 at 12:41.
VH-JJW,
As one of those pilots working in a far flung corner of the globe, I can assure you I would be out of here in a heartbeat if my current country of abode could supply sufficient home grown pilots. That is the situation ANYWHERE Australians are working as ex-pat pilots. It is NOT the case in Australia.
There would be a flood of highly qualified, experienced pilots coming back to Aus if J* and was offering anything close to a competitive package.
457 Visas are supposed to be a last resort when sufficient numbers of qualified Aussies don't EXIST, not for when a company simply won't offer any thing like enough money!!
As one of those pilots working in a far flung corner of the globe, I can assure you I would be out of here in a heartbeat if my current country of abode could supply sufficient home grown pilots. That is the situation ANYWHERE Australians are working as ex-pat pilots. It is NOT the case in Australia.
There would be a flood of highly qualified, experienced pilots coming back to Aus if J* and was offering anything close to a competitive package.
457 Visas are supposed to be a last resort when sufficient numbers of qualified Aussies don't EXIST, not for when a company simply won't offer any thing like enough money!!
Make sure you don't watch this straight after eating, the sight of the little gnome talking out of his arse is enough to make you sick!!!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2008/05/26/2256191.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2008/05/26/2256191.htm
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Wiz, my point is not the adequacy or otherwise of the JQ Terms and Conditions. My point is the fact that you CAN work in other countries.
If all nations adopted a similar approach to that suggested here then you and most Australian pilots working overseas would simply be UNEMPLOYED.
This is not a simple argument, there are numerous issues here including:
DEC's in Jetstar
Availability of suitably qualified local pilots
Jetstar Terms and Conditions, and
Government Decisions to grant s457 visas.
I am speaking in relation to only the last point.
If all nations adopted a similar approach to that suggested here then you and most Australian pilots working overseas would simply be UNEMPLOYED.
This is not a simple argument, there are numerous issues here including:
DEC's in Jetstar
Availability of suitably qualified local pilots
Jetstar Terms and Conditions, and
Government Decisions to grant s457 visas.
I am speaking in relation to only the last point.
Lawrie,
After pursuing a career and starting out with 150-200 hours in the early turbulent 90's, I've seen my fair share while embarking on my career dream.
Voting down the latest EBA was personally hard thought and was happy with the initial outcome when voted down, but lost for words when my union signed off on practically the same EBA, and somehow enabling current non-EBA pilots to vote as part of company "buy-out" to get it over the line, I lost my faith in the collective...
I feel for the current F/O generation within our struggling company. Really good guys, and now battling to keep their right to seniority being circumvented by these 457 visa's, and direct entry captains, (yes many exceed the OM1 command requirements, as well as those with less than OM1 req's, but exceed company requirements not met by most direct entry captains). The flight deck chatter, (on the whole), used to be so positive and easy going, is now being consistently eroded by talk of direct entry commands, by-pass of seniority, and I wonder what I will be chatting about tomorrow when our own union had pretty much endorsed further direct entry fella's from SA.
Need I add how many currently employed experienced captains we presently have, that could fill any training role if a company FSO requesting EOI for training vacancies, was produced tomorrow would be easily filled.... disgraceful and disappointing
After pursuing a career and starting out with 150-200 hours in the early turbulent 90's, I've seen my fair share while embarking on my career dream.
Voting down the latest EBA was personally hard thought and was happy with the initial outcome when voted down, but lost for words when my union signed off on practically the same EBA, and somehow enabling current non-EBA pilots to vote as part of company "buy-out" to get it over the line, I lost my faith in the collective...
I feel for the current F/O generation within our struggling company. Really good guys, and now battling to keep their right to seniority being circumvented by these 457 visa's, and direct entry captains, (yes many exceed the OM1 command requirements, as well as those with less than OM1 req's, but exceed company requirements not met by most direct entry captains). The flight deck chatter, (on the whole), used to be so positive and easy going, is now being consistently eroded by talk of direct entry commands, by-pass of seniority, and I wonder what I will be chatting about tomorrow when our own union had pretty much endorsed further direct entry fella's from SA.
"They'll be direct-entry captains with type-rated experience and they'll be able to go into vacancies and provide training opportunities.....
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The little Irishman said it himself. “to avoid a potential pilot shortage.” There is no pilot shortage at the moment.
“We have to be in a position to, to compete in a global market, and recruit pilots from ahhh, from a variety of different sources.”
Just after skybus closed its doors in the US An Australian airline advertised in the US for rated Airbus crews. Skybus were the lowest paid Airbus pilots I have ever heard of.
I could go to china and make $14,000 per month as an A320 Capt and pay no tax, and have housing, medical uniforms, meals and transport included.
There are similar contracts all around the world.
I want to echo the statement made by the AIPA rep, Virgin have trained enough Australia crews to sustain their growth.
But they also pay $100k for a 73 FO.
VH-JJW
Most of the Airlines that hire foreigners run cadet programs. Not like the pathetic excuses of cadetships offered here but real cadetships, where once you are selected they pay for all costs associated with training. When airlines in Australia start paying for the training for hundreds of cadets per year, such as Singapore Airlines China Southern Airlines and Cathay and there is still not enough pilots, then bring in the expats like in those countries. In fact those airlines are providing the experience for Australian instructors training their cadets so not only are they supporting the citizens of their home countries they are also supporting our country. In those cases working as an expat is essential. Imaging Emirates without expats. Australia is totally different, with a huge supply of GA pilots and just as many airline pilots working overseas as locally due to past and present factors. We cant change the past and bring pilots back but we can change the future.
My message to you Mr Joice
OFFER A SALARY COMPETITIVE IN THE GLOBAL MARKET AND YOU WILL HAVE ENOUGH PILOTS FOR YOU PROJECTED GROWTH AND MORE! IF NOT, GO BACK TO IRELAND, AND TAKE YOUR WORSE THAN THIRD WORLD INSULTING SALARIES AND LIES WITH YOU!
“We have to be in a position to, to compete in a global market, and recruit pilots from ahhh, from a variety of different sources.”
Just after skybus closed its doors in the US An Australian airline advertised in the US for rated Airbus crews. Skybus were the lowest paid Airbus pilots I have ever heard of.
I could go to china and make $14,000 per month as an A320 Capt and pay no tax, and have housing, medical uniforms, meals and transport included.
There are similar contracts all around the world.
I want to echo the statement made by the AIPA rep, Virgin have trained enough Australia crews to sustain their growth.
But they also pay $100k for a 73 FO.
VH-JJW
Most of the Airlines that hire foreigners run cadet programs. Not like the pathetic excuses of cadetships offered here but real cadetships, where once you are selected they pay for all costs associated with training. When airlines in Australia start paying for the training for hundreds of cadets per year, such as Singapore Airlines China Southern Airlines and Cathay and there is still not enough pilots, then bring in the expats like in those countries. In fact those airlines are providing the experience for Australian instructors training their cadets so not only are they supporting the citizens of their home countries they are also supporting our country. In those cases working as an expat is essential. Imaging Emirates without expats. Australia is totally different, with a huge supply of GA pilots and just as many airline pilots working overseas as locally due to past and present factors. We cant change the past and bring pilots back but we can change the future.
My message to you Mr Joice
OFFER A SALARY COMPETITIVE IN THE GLOBAL MARKET AND YOU WILL HAVE ENOUGH PILOTS FOR YOU PROJECTED GROWTH AND MORE! IF NOT, GO BACK TO IRELAND, AND TAKE YOUR WORSE THAN THIRD WORLD INSULTING SALARIES AND LIES WITH YOU!
Last edited by fedup1; 26th May 2008 at 13:23. Reason: layout
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on a different note,
wouldnt it be interesting to compare the state of pilots terms and conditions in relation to take home pay over the past 20 years to the pay of managment.
Im sure that the managers take home pay has gone up four fold plus while the pilots pay has gone up in single figures over the same period, if at all.
I dont have the exact numbers but would be interesting to hear from those that do.
wouldnt it be interesting to compare the state of pilots terms and conditions in relation to take home pay over the past 20 years to the pay of managment.
Im sure that the managers take home pay has gone up four fold plus while the pilots pay has gone up in single figures over the same period, if at all.
I dont have the exact numbers but would be interesting to hear from those that do.
My point is the fact that you CAN work in other countries.
JJW,
I CAN work in other countries who CAN'T supply enough of their own pilots. I CAN'T work in countries that CAN.
I CAN'T work in the US, Europe or much of Asia unless I hold citizenship there, because no sovereign country allows foreign labour to usurp their citizens if they can supply sufficient people themselves, the current glaring exception being Australia!!