How dumb is this?
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Would there be any problems by using a combination of flight number AND aircraft registration, such as Rex 664 Kilo when flight 664 is operated by VH-ZLK? That surely would go a long way to minimise any confusion.
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There are already suffixs for certain types of flights. For example when the first A380 was stucked in SYD. A few hours after the plane I arrived on departed as Singapore 220, the stucked plane left as Singapore 220 Foxtrot. I suppose its supposed to mean ferry.
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It gets even better when you have QF737 that is actually a 767, or QF744 that is a 737. They are the best ones.
Rex also have my favourite, the Dubbo flights in the morning an hour or so apart RXA826 and RXA862. Really, is there any need for that?
Rex also have my favourite, the Dubbo flights in the morning an hour or so apart RXA826 and RXA862. Really, is there any need for that?
Controllers can and do get aircraft to use rego instead of flight number if there is potential for confusion.
It's a bit late if you leave it until the terminal area. If the crew has already flown for an hour or more using one callsign then changing it for the last sector will probably cause more confusion.
As a controller I liked regos as callsign. We used to be able to recognise aircraft type and therefore performance and weight turb characteristics from the rego.
Even things like "Oh has TJA still got that pressurisation problem they had last week"
AA
It's a bit late if you leave it until the terminal area. If the crew has already flown for an hour or more using one callsign then changing it for the last sector will probably cause more confusion.
As a controller I liked regos as callsign. We used to be able to recognise aircraft type and therefore performance and weight turb characteristics from the rego.
Even things like "Oh has TJA still got that pressurisation problem they had last week"
AA
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From AIP:
4.17.1 When selecting a flight identification number or call-sign suffix,
operators should avoid using numbers that correlate with:
a. ending in “zero” or “five”, to avoid confusion with headings;
b. potential level utilisation (eg. 500, 350 etc);
c. emergency codes (eg. 7600, 7700 etc); and
d. numerical aircraft types (eg. 767, 330 etc).
4.17.1 When selecting a flight identification number or call-sign suffix,
operators should avoid using numbers that correlate with:
a. ending in “zero” or “five”, to avoid confusion with headings;
b. potential level utilisation (eg. 500, 350 etc);
c. emergency codes (eg. 7600, 7700 etc); and
d. numerical aircraft types (eg. 767, 330 etc).
Join Date: Sep 2000
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Later this evening my sector will have QFA653 YMML-YPPH, VOZ653 YMML-somewhere north & JST653 YPPH-YMAV. Since daylight savings ended have had them all on the same freq group at the same time twice. Hope to complete the set one day if QFA553 is a bit late YMML-YPAD and is still there as well. (thinks: where does RXA3653 go again?)
Nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong...
I agree the same potential for confusion is there with using rego, but why duplicate that with stupidly similar callsigns that everybody says rooly quickly coz they are so long? It could be organised A LOT BETTER!!!
Nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong...
I agree the same potential for confusion is there with using rego, but why duplicate that with stupidly similar callsigns that everybody says rooly quickly coz they are so long? It could be organised A LOT BETTER!!!
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Last year around 0600 on BN centre I was roaring along in my metro enroute at WLM-LOWEP and was cleared "Brindabella102 cleared FL350"
ummmmmmmmmm - answer was "not in a metro"
VB had a very similar callsign on same frequency
Poor ATC - throw in probably fatigued from end of back of the clock shift and mistakes can happen.
God bless TCAS
ummmmmmmmmm - answer was "not in a metro"
VB had a very similar callsign on same frequency
Poor ATC - throw in probably fatigued from end of back of the clock shift and mistakes can happen.
God bless TCAS
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Don't forget Top End 222 and Top End 2222. I used to hear those ones around DN at the same time. "Was that TE 2-2-2 or TE 2-2-2-2?"
Finally the controller gave them different callsigns. I would have thought TE triple 2 and TE Twenty-two Twenty-two would have been better. I think number groups are actually mentioned in Jepps, but can't be bothered looking at the mo'
Finally the controller gave them different callsigns. I would have thought TE triple 2 and TE Twenty-two Twenty-two would have been better. I think number groups are actually mentioned in Jepps, but can't be bothered looking at the mo'
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SSQ353D departs airfield A, get's abeam airfield B, at same time as SSQ335D departs airfield B. Both aircraft parallel tracks to airfield C. Happens every day.
CB approach (I guess ML if it comes down to that) occasionally will caution some aircraft that there is a similar call-sign aircraft on the same frequency at the same time.
ie; "XX102 caution, XXX201 also on frequency" - certainly makes it easier. I guess it heats up a bit when the sector becomes rather busy and it can still work well as long as everyone stays relatively awake.
Regards,
OpsN.
ie; "XX102 caution, XXX201 also on frequency" - certainly makes it easier. I guess it heats up a bit when the sector becomes rather busy and it can still work well as long as everyone stays relatively awake.
Regards,
OpsN.
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Have seen numerous examples of similar callsigns in my little patch and I realise that sometimes it is unavoidable.
What really bothers me is there appears to be no real attempt by AsA, CASA or the airlines to try and minimise the risk.
Example: Two weeks after attending a briefing about this very subject, a well known regional carrier commenced a revised schedule which saw two of there aircraft, with similar callsigns (ie. 4643 and 4634) on a one-way route, passing nose to nose.
Throw in 3 or 4 other callsigns from the same operator, a busy evenings traffic, some WX diversions and multiple level changes and it's only a matter of time till something unpleasant
happens.
What really bothers me is there appears to be no real attempt by AsA, CASA or the airlines to try and minimise the risk.
Example: Two weeks after attending a briefing about this very subject, a well known regional carrier commenced a revised schedule which saw two of there aircraft, with similar callsigns (ie. 4643 and 4634) on a one-way route, passing nose to nose.
Throw in 3 or 4 other callsigns from the same operator, a busy evenings traffic, some WX diversions and multiple level changes and it's only a matter of time till something unpleasant
happens.
Be glad we're not flying in India, where convention is to adopt the "international abbreviated callsign" for all aircraft...
VT-ABC, VT-BBC, VT-CBC, VT-DBC, and so on... twenty-six aircraft all with the callsign "Victor Bravo Charlie".
With the potential for 17,576 registrations, same as here, they manage to get away with only 676 callsigns to share around.
VT-ABC, VT-BBC, VT-CBC, VT-DBC, and so on... twenty-six aircraft all with the callsign "Victor Bravo Charlie".
With the potential for 17,576 registrations, same as here, they manage to get away with only 676 callsigns to share around.
The Airlines in India use their Airline name in the callsign and not their Rego.. Jet airways, Kingfisher etc etc. So the Rego doesn't matter. However just like Aussie the numbers can get confused.
Eg: Jetairways Callsign "Jetairways"
Air India Callsign "Air India"
SpiceJet Callsign "Spicejet"
Kingfisher Callsign "Kingfisher"
etc etc
Eg: Jetairways Callsign "Jetairways"
Air India Callsign "Air India"
SpiceJet Callsign "Spicejet"
Kingfisher Callsign "Kingfisher"
etc etc
Last edited by ACMS; 7th Jun 2008 at 13:28.
yeah.............but there still aren't that many private a/c flying around. You see maybe a dozen bizjets parked in BOM but I've NEVER heard any on the freq. And I fly into/over India a lot. So it's not YET a big problem.
The problems with ATC in India don't relate to callsign confusion, that would be easier to handle!!
The problems with ATC in India don't relate to callsign confusion, that would be easier to handle!!
