Say NO to 457 visas.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 1,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another story
A long time ago I was wandering around Adelaide and saw a sign saying"professional employment office" so I went in and filled in some forms. A nice gentleman read out a job description which almost exactly matched what I had been doing for the previous two years.
This led to a job offer from an american company which I accepted, and a very nice american gentleman was able to go home to where he wanted to be. He had been here for six months as the company said there was no-one in Australia who could do the work.
This led to a job offer from an american company which I accepted, and a very nice american gentleman was able to go home to where he wanted to be. He had been here for six months as the company said there was no-one in Australia who could do the work.
Last edited by bushy; 24th Apr 2008 at 14:17.
I can think of at least half a dozen experienced Jet Pilots (off the top of my head) here in Oz with many thousands of hours Jet command time who cannot even get an interview with Jet*. How can Jet* claim the need to employ off shore when there are suitable applicants in their own back yard willing to accept the current T & C's.
Our fore-fathers fought vigorously to protect the T's & C's and the rights of the local Oz work force and so should we.The business of employing cheap overseas labour at the expense of local workers undermines every basic principle of Australian idealology and is a direct threat to the life style of all Australians. We must not let this happen.
If in fact OS Pilots are being employed under the 457 Visa then we must lobby the Government and demand that the AFAP, IAPA and the TWU take immediate action. Anybody who has a job application with any company that employs under 457, and who meets the requirements of that job description but is not given the job or even the chance of an interview must stand up and be counted.
We must speak up and speak LOUDLY if we are going to have any chance of putting a stop to this abhorrent un-Australian business practise.
Our fore-fathers fought vigorously to protect the T's & C's and the rights of the local Oz work force and so should we.The business of employing cheap overseas labour at the expense of local workers undermines every basic principle of Australian idealology and is a direct threat to the life style of all Australians. We must not let this happen.
If in fact OS Pilots are being employed under the 457 Visa then we must lobby the Government and demand that the AFAP, IAPA and the TWU take immediate action. Anybody who has a job application with any company that employs under 457, and who meets the requirements of that job description but is not given the job or even the chance of an interview must stand up and be counted.
We must speak up and speak LOUDLY if we are going to have any chance of putting a stop to this abhorrent un-Australian business practise.
Read the posts on the previous page; it doesn't look as though it's a 457 visa issue. If you're going to write to Julia Gizzard or your MP (Member of Parliament) then you should ensure you have a clear picture of what exactly is going on.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not good.
I've been reading this thread with great interest and worry. One thing I have learned from the same situation in other industries is that most employers these days are only interested in one thing.. profits. If there was a bus load of suitable candidates camped outside the likes of J* and Qlink begging for work, they would be completely ignored if the mgt could get overseas bodies for half the price. As one poster put it, J* came to the UK and were NOT INTERESTED in expats. Whilst I admire the spirit of those that promote the "Aussie jobs for Aussies" view AND those that have the drive and determination to get out of a sh*t hole country for a better life, the employers neither admire, nor care about either. They will use ANY method to get the cheapest path to the greatest profits and the cheapo airlines have woken up to the fact that they can acomplish this by using overseas labour.
This is EXACTLY what has happened in the IT industry here. Try to get a start in IT as a young guy or girl fresh trained in Aus and they soon find out that employers have shipped all the startup, first jobs to India. Its not the indians fault, nor is it the young'ins fault. It is the employer going for bigger profits with lower overheads. The Scabs here are the airlines carrying out this practice and the govt for supporting it. These are the folk we should be emailing and calling.
This is EXACTLY what has happened in the IT industry here. Try to get a start in IT as a young guy or girl fresh trained in Aus and they soon find out that employers have shipped all the startup, first jobs to India. Its not the indians fault, nor is it the young'ins fault. It is the employer going for bigger profits with lower overheads. The Scabs here are the airlines carrying out this practice and the govt for supporting it. These are the folk we should be emailing and calling.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vatican City
Age: 64
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Black Sheep
Just curious - How many BLACK SHEEP are out there working o/seas who would like to come home but for various reasons CANNOT ie. they are TOO experienced eg. A340 Trg Capt but unable to get an interview for an A320 DEC posn?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: WestQLD
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The statement referring to 457 visas as low paid coolies is very far from the truth. The requirements of 457 visas is that they [B]cannot[B] be disadvantaged ie. pay must be at a required level not less than for employing Australians.
Consider where an employer is trying to attract people to a non-coastal region. Australians do not want to come here, so the only option is 457 visa.
I might add the people we have already cannot express enough appreciation for the opportunity they have now and are making thier best effort to intergrate with the community.
This is not an aviation industry that I am referring to and that there are unscrupulous employers out there who will try and take advantage of this system and anyone with information that implies that these companies (aviation or not) should make a big noise about it. let's face it - in general there is a great labour shortage in Australia.
Consider where an employer is trying to attract people to a non-coastal region. Australians do not want to come here, so the only option is 457 visa.
I might add the people we have already cannot express enough appreciation for the opportunity they have now and are making thier best effort to intergrate with the community.
This is not an aviation industry that I am referring to and that there are unscrupulous employers out there who will try and take advantage of this system and anyone with information that implies that these companies (aviation or not) should make a big noise about it. let's face it - in general there is a great labour shortage in Australia.
Guest
Posts: n/a
G'Day TonKat. I think that most of us can apprieciate that the 457 program is designed to attract overseas workers to Australia to meet the shortage of skills in certain industies. However, air pilotage is not one of them.
It should be fairly evident that there are many professional pilots who are Australian citizens who are qualified and willing to return to Australia to meet a shortfall of crews at certain airlines. Further, there are many qualified and experienced Pilots who reside in Australia who are ready and willing to take these positions, if they were offered.
The real crux of the issue remains that in many companies where there is a requirement for aircrews, the problem has been one of pay that is not commensurate with the required skills set. growth in the industry has meant that many Pilots in both regional and major airlines have moved to other companies where the pay and conditions are better; the "Pilot shortage" can be solved by improving T&Cs at Australian air carriers.
So the "Pilot shortage" is an artificial and solveable one. All that is required is that Australian Pilots recieve market rates for their skills. The use of 457 visas in this instance is an abuse of what the 457 program was intended to be about. The program was designed to cover labour and skills shortfalls in critical industries. It was never supposed to be used as a means of keeping award conditions at the levels of the early 1990's.
It should be fairly evident that there are many professional pilots who are Australian citizens who are qualified and willing to return to Australia to meet a shortfall of crews at certain airlines. Further, there are many qualified and experienced Pilots who reside in Australia who are ready and willing to take these positions, if they were offered.
The real crux of the issue remains that in many companies where there is a requirement for aircrews, the problem has been one of pay that is not commensurate with the required skills set. growth in the industry has meant that many Pilots in both regional and major airlines have moved to other companies where the pay and conditions are better; the "Pilot shortage" can be solved by improving T&Cs at Australian air carriers.
So the "Pilot shortage" is an artificial and solveable one. All that is required is that Australian Pilots recieve market rates for their skills. The use of 457 visas in this instance is an abuse of what the 457 program was intended to be about. The program was designed to cover labour and skills shortfalls in critical industries. It was never supposed to be used as a means of keeping award conditions at the levels of the early 1990's.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: WestQLD
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with your comments and also your understanding of the broader viewpoint Ralph the Bong.
Could it be that these large corporations have too many bean counters intent on wrestling the last cent out of operations by decreasing the value of the people 'most' important to an air carrier?
And I suppose a naive view would be that any decrease in the availability of aircrew would improve the T's & C's for qualified applicants which is obviously not occurring as these operators are looking at other alternatives (cheap).
Could it be that these large corporations have too many bean counters intent on wrestling the last cent out of operations by decreasing the value of the people 'most' important to an air carrier?
And I suppose a naive view would be that any decrease in the availability of aircrew would improve the T's & C's for qualified applicants which is obviously not occurring as these operators are looking at other alternatives (cheap).
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: australia
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Acceptance of 457 argument
ACMS and Ralph the Bong -
Firstly, why are you both so angry, why don't you get married to each other?
Secondly, as I really can't be bothered engaging in some juvenile tit for tat exchange about the 457 system and how the fact that some blokes have apparently great experience levels but strangely still can't get flying jobs and how sad that is and how it costs sooooo much to learn to fly and how we should all be getting paid as much as the reserve bank chairman to fly an A320 up and down the east coast I will make the following consolation to you!
I'll accept your argument......when I read in the paper that despite the fact that Australia is suffering a massive skilled labour shortage, including among some aviation elements, that the government bows to the demands of ACMS and Ralph the Bong and cancels the rights for 457 visa holders to fly australian registered aircraft for emmployment purposes.
Until then, you can both go swivel on it!
TID EDIT: Play nice and keep the name calling out of it!
Firstly, why are you both so angry, why don't you get married to each other?
Secondly, as I really can't be bothered engaging in some juvenile tit for tat exchange about the 457 system and how the fact that some blokes have apparently great experience levels but strangely still can't get flying jobs and how sad that is and how it costs sooooo much to learn to fly and how we should all be getting paid as much as the reserve bank chairman to fly an A320 up and down the east coast I will make the following consolation to you!
I'll accept your argument......when I read in the paper that despite the fact that Australia is suffering a massive skilled labour shortage, including among some aviation elements, that the government bows to the demands of ACMS and Ralph the Bong and cancels the rights for 457 visa holders to fly australian registered aircraft for emmployment purposes.
Until then, you can both go swivel on it!
TID EDIT: Play nice and keep the name calling out of it!
angry little ant aren't you.
My arguement is simple mate. So once again, I'll TRY and SPELL it out for a 3 y.o. to follow.
THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF OZ QUALIFIED PILOT'S wanting to work in OZ.
with me so far buddy?
THERE IS AN ATTEMPT BY ALL THE AIRLINES TO KEEP PILOT WAGES AT VERY LOW LEVELS COMPARED TO OTHER JOBS, AND REMEMBER PILOT'S HAVE TO SPEND AN ABSOLUTE FORTUNE TO GET THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
still here?
THEY ALL KNOW PILOT'S LOVE TO FLY PLANES AND IN THE PAST MOST WOULD HAVE SOLD THEIR MOTHER TO DO IT.
NOW THEY CANNOT EVEN GET GUYS AND GIRLS TO SELL THEIR MUM, PEOPLE JUST AREN'T BOTHERED TO BECOME PILOT'S ANYMORE BECAUSE YOU PAY ****.................
still reading?
SO MR AIRLINE HAS SAID "PILOT SHORTAGE" AND RUSHED OVERSEAS TO GET MONKEYS TO FLY FOR THE PEANUTS THEY OFFER.
THIS IS WHAT WE OBJECT TO.................
THERE ARE PLENTY OF GUYS AND GIRLS JUST JUMPING AT THE BIT TO FLY ALL SORTS OF AIRCRAFT BUT CANNOT SEE A FUTURE IN THE INDUSTRY. REX IS THE WORST OFFENDER.
THE AIRLINES NEED TO START PAY DECENT MONEY TO PILOT'S TO ATTRACT AND KEEP THEM.
AIRLINES SUCH AS VB ( domestic and not V australia ), JQ ETC ALREADY PAY REASONABLY WELL AND THUS HAVE NO TROUBLE ATTRACTING AUSSIES BACK HOME TO STAY.
IT'S QLINK, REX, V Aus ET AL THAT NEED TO UP THEIR GAME AND STOP DANCING AROUND THE ISSUE.
it's not rocket science my friend.
But don't think that you can cry Pilot shortage when we ALL KNOW BETTER.
IF THERE WAS A REAL SHORTAGE AND AIRLINES PAID A REASONABLE WAGE I CAN TELL YOU FOR A FACT THAT NONE OF US WOULD OBJECT TO HIRING FROM OVERSEAS.
YOU'VE BEEN SUCKED IN BY THE SPIN DOCTORS.
My arguement is simple mate. So once again, I'll TRY and SPELL it out for a 3 y.o. to follow.
THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF OZ QUALIFIED PILOT'S wanting to work in OZ.
with me so far buddy?
THERE IS AN ATTEMPT BY ALL THE AIRLINES TO KEEP PILOT WAGES AT VERY LOW LEVELS COMPARED TO OTHER JOBS, AND REMEMBER PILOT'S HAVE TO SPEND AN ABSOLUTE FORTUNE TO GET THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
still here?
THEY ALL KNOW PILOT'S LOVE TO FLY PLANES AND IN THE PAST MOST WOULD HAVE SOLD THEIR MOTHER TO DO IT.
NOW THEY CANNOT EVEN GET GUYS AND GIRLS TO SELL THEIR MUM, PEOPLE JUST AREN'T BOTHERED TO BECOME PILOT'S ANYMORE BECAUSE YOU PAY ****.................
still reading?
SO MR AIRLINE HAS SAID "PILOT SHORTAGE" AND RUSHED OVERSEAS TO GET MONKEYS TO FLY FOR THE PEANUTS THEY OFFER.
THIS IS WHAT WE OBJECT TO.................
THERE ARE PLENTY OF GUYS AND GIRLS JUST JUMPING AT THE BIT TO FLY ALL SORTS OF AIRCRAFT BUT CANNOT SEE A FUTURE IN THE INDUSTRY. REX IS THE WORST OFFENDER.
THE AIRLINES NEED TO START PAY DECENT MONEY TO PILOT'S TO ATTRACT AND KEEP THEM.
AIRLINES SUCH AS VB ( domestic and not V australia ), JQ ETC ALREADY PAY REASONABLY WELL AND THUS HAVE NO TROUBLE ATTRACTING AUSSIES BACK HOME TO STAY.
IT'S QLINK, REX, V Aus ET AL THAT NEED TO UP THEIR GAME AND STOP DANCING AROUND THE ISSUE.
it's not rocket science my friend.
But don't think that you can cry Pilot shortage when we ALL KNOW BETTER.
IF THERE WAS A REAL SHORTAGE AND AIRLINES PAID A REASONABLE WAGE I CAN TELL YOU FOR A FACT THAT NONE OF US WOULD OBJECT TO HIRING FROM OVERSEAS.
YOU'VE BEEN SUCKED IN BY THE SPIN DOCTORS.
as others have said before: 100 CPL holders work in the WA Mines?
why do you think that is?
what do you think the AMA would do if the Hospitals said they couldn't get any Doctors and had to recruit overseas BUT on a very crap wage?
NO NO NO you don't.
Pilot's are by no means unique, however FAIRS BLOODY FAIR.
maybe you'd like the French Pilot back, the ones Ables imported during '89, the ones that had wine with their lunch and very nearly lowered the hill at OOL on approach to 14?
They'd love to come back. Along with the IL86 crew too.
why do you think that is?
what do you think the AMA would do if the Hospitals said they couldn't get any Doctors and had to recruit overseas BUT on a very crap wage?
NO NO NO you don't.
Pilot's are by no means unique, however FAIRS BLOODY FAIR.
maybe you'd like the French Pilot back, the ones Ables imported during '89, the ones that had wine with their lunch and very nearly lowered the hill at OOL on approach to 14?
They'd love to come back. Along with the IL86 crew too.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How exciting! 4 Pages of posts and we've established that the Supply schedule for Labour is directly proportional to price! Maybe if we're lucky we can discover by late next week that the Demand Schedule for Labour is inversely proportional to price!!
Last edited by Pass-A-Frozo; 24th Apr 2008 at 06:31.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Victor 2,
ACMS and I have had our differences over industrial issues, but I know that we both seek improved conditions for Pilots. Our only major difference has been on how to go about achieving this.
What is YOUR agenda? We can clearly see that the 457 process is now being abused so as to put downward pressure on forces that would otherwise see an improvement in existing T&Cs.
In case you didn't realise, this is a Pilot's forum. Here we discuss issues that impact on Australian and NZ (cant forget velcro-gloved our mates, can we) professional Pilots.
We would be very interested to hear you explaination as to how 457 visas will benefit the Australian Aviation industry and improve that lot of the Australian/NZ Pilot fraternity.
Go on. I double-dares ya.
ACMS and I have had our differences over industrial issues, but I know that we both seek improved conditions for Pilots. Our only major difference has been on how to go about achieving this.
What is YOUR agenda? We can clearly see that the 457 process is now being abused so as to put downward pressure on forces that would otherwise see an improvement in existing T&Cs.
In case you didn't realise, this is a Pilot's forum. Here we discuss issues that impact on Australian and NZ (cant forget velcro-gloved our mates, can we) professional Pilots.
We would be very interested to hear you explaination as to how 457 visas will benefit the Australian Aviation industry and improve that lot of the Australian/NZ Pilot fraternity.
Go on. I double-dares ya.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: nextdoor
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To Pappy Bovinton,
I would suggest there are well more than 100 experienced Australian ATPL holding airline pilots that are O/S that have 10,000 or more airline hours on Boeing aircraft (with well in excess of 4000 command hours on Boeings) that have had applications on file with J* for a long period of time and are interested in returning for a domestic DEC job (under the advertised conditions). I know of 20 or so myself.
However it appears that J* is only interested in A/bus time for DECs.
I would suggest that if they can't find Australian A/Bus experienced guys then look at Australians with plenty of Airline command experience for DECs.
{I believe that the need for DECs is due to J* not having enough experienced F/Os to upgrade?}
It is believing this and hearing of non Australians being recruited as DECs that seems wrong.
As per my previous question does anyone know how many Visa sponsored pilots have been recruited for J*, and how many are DEC? Also are all the DECs A/Bus command experienced?
I know this post only addresses the issue of DECs and Boeing experience, and I would suggest that there are A/Bus qualified guys as well as experienced F/Os out there too that would like to return home.
Wondering?
I would suggest there are well more than 100 experienced Australian ATPL holding airline pilots that are O/S that have 10,000 or more airline hours on Boeing aircraft (with well in excess of 4000 command hours on Boeings) that have had applications on file with J* for a long period of time and are interested in returning for a domestic DEC job (under the advertised conditions). I know of 20 or so myself.
However it appears that J* is only interested in A/bus time for DECs.
I would suggest that if they can't find Australian A/Bus experienced guys then look at Australians with plenty of Airline command experience for DECs.
{I believe that the need for DECs is due to J* not having enough experienced F/Os to upgrade?}
It is believing this and hearing of non Australians being recruited as DECs that seems wrong.
As per my previous question does anyone know how many Visa sponsored pilots have been recruited for J*, and how many are DEC? Also are all the DECs A/Bus command experienced?
I know this post only addresses the issue of DECs and Boeing experience, and I would suggest that there are A/Bus qualified guys as well as experienced F/Os out there too that would like to return home.
Wondering?
Seriously,ACMS, you crack me up.In the early 90's when flying jobs in the UK were like Rocking Horse Poo, there was no shortage of Aussies flying in Pom because they had a Scottish Grandma, or some other such cr*p.I know- I was chasing my first flying job.
Your double standards are truly breathtaking, and simply reflect what a protectionist racket flying in Oz has been all these years.
Your double standards are truly breathtaking, and simply reflect what a protectionist racket flying in Oz has been all these years.
Mate either you can't read or you don't want to.
I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO PEOPLE THAT ALREADY HAVE 457 VIAS'S OR THE RIGHT TO LIVE AND WORK IN OZ JOINING THE AIRLINES.
I OBJECT TO THE GOVT ALLOWING IN FOREIGN WORKERS TO DO A JOB THAT AUSSIES CAN AND WOULD DO IF THEY WERE PAID A PROPER WAGE.
SAME GOES FOR THE U.K. IF ANY AUSSIE IS SPONSORED BY A UK AIRLINE TO COME AND WORK THEN YOU CAN CALL ME SHIRLEY. BECAUSE I'D VENTURE TO SUGGEST THAT THEY ALREADY HAD THE RIGHT TO WORK IN THE UK BEFORE THEY FLEW? CORRECT? YEAH THOUGHT SO.
SO TAKE YOUR "WE HATE FOREIGNERS" B.S. AND RUN ALONG SONNY JIM.
WE DON'T MIND FOREIGNERS HERE AS LONG AS AUSSIES GET A FAIR GO FIRST....OK?
PROTECTIONIST RACKET??????? well if the UK chose to let Aussies in BEFORE locals then your complaint should be with YOUR Govt and not us.
Because sure as **** is brown we cannot get a job in the US.
I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO PEOPLE THAT ALREADY HAVE 457 VIAS'S OR THE RIGHT TO LIVE AND WORK IN OZ JOINING THE AIRLINES.
I OBJECT TO THE GOVT ALLOWING IN FOREIGN WORKERS TO DO A JOB THAT AUSSIES CAN AND WOULD DO IF THEY WERE PAID A PROPER WAGE.
SAME GOES FOR THE U.K. IF ANY AUSSIE IS SPONSORED BY A UK AIRLINE TO COME AND WORK THEN YOU CAN CALL ME SHIRLEY. BECAUSE I'D VENTURE TO SUGGEST THAT THEY ALREADY HAD THE RIGHT TO WORK IN THE UK BEFORE THEY FLEW? CORRECT? YEAH THOUGHT SO.
SO TAKE YOUR "WE HATE FOREIGNERS" B.S. AND RUN ALONG SONNY JIM.
WE DON'T MIND FOREIGNERS HERE AS LONG AS AUSSIES GET A FAIR GO FIRST....OK?
PROTECTIONIST RACKET??????? well if the UK chose to let Aussies in BEFORE locals then your complaint should be with YOUR Govt and not us.
Because sure as **** is brown we cannot get a job in the US.
Last edited by ACMS; 24th Apr 2008 at 11:28.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem mate, is what you personally call a fair wage. You wish to apply your personal circumstances to what you call a fair wage. (i.e. You'll work for what I consider a fair wage and nothing less). It's a global extension of a unionised world (The company will not employ someone for less than what we - "The collective" say)
So TAKE YOUR "HOW DARE YOU WORK FOR $1 LESS THAN I WOULD argument elsewhere. You don't / shouldn't and should never dictate what any other person should work for.
So what would you say to someone who didn't want to apply / do your job for your salary - if they said "I wanted that job but only for what I consider a fair wage. You've ruined what would have been my job"
Take your "We don't mind foreigners" crap elsewhere. You do - because you know it would increase the supply of pilots. You hate the idea of foreigners - unless they work on your terms - i.e. you advocate price fixing (as do unions). It's just you don't care when it's wages you want fixed.
Individual choice.. It's a wonderful thing.
So TAKE YOUR "HOW DARE YOU WORK FOR $1 LESS THAN I WOULD argument elsewhere. You don't / shouldn't and should never dictate what any other person should work for.
So what would you say to someone who didn't want to apply / do your job for your salary - if they said "I wanted that job but only for what I consider a fair wage. You've ruined what would have been my job"
Take your "We don't mind foreigners" crap elsewhere. You do - because you know it would increase the supply of pilots. You hate the idea of foreigners - unless they work on your terms - i.e. you advocate price fixing (as do unions). It's just you don't care when it's wages you want fixed.
Individual choice.. It's a wonderful thing.
