Merged: 7.30 Report, Pilot's shortage (03 April 08)
Pay peanuths - get monkeyths! 
Join Date: May 2000
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The Arrogance is unbelievable
Guys I see all this prattle about wages all the time and it never ceases to amaze me that you carry on about management not paying decent wages. Do you really think they do it just because they can?? If any of you got down off your high horses for just 30 seconds and applied yourself to understanding basic business principles you "may just may" get the idea that the very people who are giving you that job that you think you so richly deserve are struggling in a very competitive enviroment to make enough money to keep their company viable.
In any business the largest weekly expense, aside from the aircraft operating expenses, is the wages. If you pay higher wages your aircraft hourly rate goes up and this directly affects the charge out rate for the aircraft. So if you follow the spiral the market forces dictate that the higher the rate the less attractive your rates become to the customer, you know those pains in the butt who sit down the back, the people who really pay your wages. No customers = no flying = Boss goes broke = "NO JOB"
So the solution is if you don't like it then get lost because it is people like you who get Mummy & Daddy to pay for you to learn to fly that don't belong and maybe that is why the airlines didn't give you a job even though you had 2000 hours and were "very experienced". They don't want some ?hiT Stirrer in the company who runs of to the unions and tells tales every time the roster doesn't suit. If you think I am being harsh well have a think about it and try running your own business and dealing with the Arrogance that is dished out by you people on a daily basis.
In any business the largest weekly expense, aside from the aircraft operating expenses, is the wages. If you pay higher wages your aircraft hourly rate goes up and this directly affects the charge out rate for the aircraft. So if you follow the spiral the market forces dictate that the higher the rate the less attractive your rates become to the customer, you know those pains in the butt who sit down the back, the people who really pay your wages. No customers = no flying = Boss goes broke = "NO JOB"
So the solution is if you don't like it then get lost because it is people like you who get Mummy & Daddy to pay for you to learn to fly that don't belong and maybe that is why the airlines didn't give you a job even though you had 2000 hours and were "very experienced". They don't want some ?hiT Stirrer in the company who runs of to the unions and tells tales every time the roster doesn't suit. If you think I am being harsh well have a think about it and try running your own business and dealing with the Arrogance that is dished out by you people on a daily basis.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth
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Grogmonster, what are you talking about ?.
This issue is about: no pilots ( due to better money and roster elsewhere ) = reduced numbers of flights = pissed off pax.
So the companies can either force Pilots at gun point to stay, pay them better money/fix the roster or go broke ( because many companies will and have stepped up to the plate ), pretty simple really.
I am no fan of the silver spooners either, but this is not about them.
Arrogance, compare the industry rates of pay against other industries, then against mortgage repayments for the average house.
If a company can not negotiate a reasonable salary with staff, then afford to pay said salary, do they deserve to be in business ?.
Salary rates are set by the laws of supply and demand, under supply of Pilots at present, so the companies need to adapt to this new environment or be uncompetitive and have no Pilots.
This issue is about: no pilots ( due to better money and roster elsewhere ) = reduced numbers of flights = pissed off pax.
So the companies can either force Pilots at gun point to stay, pay them better money/fix the roster or go broke ( because many companies will and have stepped up to the plate ), pretty simple really.
I am no fan of the silver spooners either, but this is not about them.
Arrogance, compare the industry rates of pay against other industries, then against mortgage repayments for the average house.
If a company can not negotiate a reasonable salary with staff, then afford to pay said salary, do they deserve to be in business ?.
Salary rates are set by the laws of supply and demand, under supply of Pilots at present, so the companies need to adapt to this new environment or be uncompetitive and have no Pilots.
Join Date: May 2002
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Grogmonster,
At this stage I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not a troll.
The people who run these companies are continually running the line that their payrises are in line with market forces. i.e these are the T&Cs required globally to get the right people. It seems reasonably simple to apply that to other positions in the company.
Don't preach restraint unless you are willing to apply the same principle to yourself.It is galling to see people trotting out this line whilst lining their own pockets to the detriment of the company AND the bottom line.
In aviation you strive to employ intelligent can-do people then are shocked to find that they don't swallow the company spin. Go figure.
At this stage I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not a troll.
The people who run these companies are continually running the line that their payrises are in line with market forces. i.e these are the T&Cs required globally to get the right people. It seems reasonably simple to apply that to other positions in the company.
Don't preach restraint unless you are willing to apply the same principle to yourself.It is galling to see people trotting out this line whilst lining their own pockets to the detriment of the company AND the bottom line.
In aviation you strive to employ intelligent can-do people then are shocked to find that they don't swallow the company spin. Go figure.
Some of these companies need to learn, it's not he 1990s anymore with walk ins and resumes arriving every day. Pilots with the sort of experience they want to employ are in short supply. Just look at Fridays Australian, plenty of "first jobs" being advertised, jobs that ten years ago would have been snapped up the instant they became available.
If someone has laid out $50 -100 000 on their qualifications, do you really expect them to work for taxi driver money. Try telling a newly qualified accountant he should get $35 000/year and see what he says.
The old business model where pilots were abundant cheap labour need to be re worked. I live in the economy and need to earn enough to buy a house, and do my shopping. If you won't pay me enough I'll find some one who will or do something else. Arguments that I should work cheap so you can have a business, and at least I've got a job won't get very far when I've just spent $400 in 45 minutes at the dentist and my acountant charges $60 an hour.
I want the going rate for my services, ten years ago when pilots were abundant you were quite happy to take advantage of it, now it's my turn.
If someone has laid out $50 -100 000 on their qualifications, do you really expect them to work for taxi driver money. Try telling a newly qualified accountant he should get $35 000/year and see what he says.
The old business model where pilots were abundant cheap labour need to be re worked. I live in the economy and need to earn enough to buy a house, and do my shopping. If you won't pay me enough I'll find some one who will or do something else. Arguments that I should work cheap so you can have a business, and at least I've got a job won't get very far when I've just spent $400 in 45 minutes at the dentist and my acountant charges $60 an hour.
I want the going rate for my services, ten years ago when pilots were abundant you were quite happy to take advantage of it, now it's my turn.
Grogmonster
You’ve just regurgitated something I learnt in year 11 Economics. When I went to university though and studied accounting in the mid eighties I quickly discovered that what I had learnt in high school economics was far from the whole picture and infact in some cases was plain wrong because of its very simplistic view of reality.
By the way there are a lot of pilots that frequent this forum that have considerable qualifications in addition to an ATPL. I suggest you think about that the next time you tell us to “get down off our high horses for just 30 seconds and apply ourselves to understanding basic business principles”. Pretty arrogant comment if you ask me from someone that quite obviously has little more than a high school economics education.
You’ve just regurgitated something I learnt in year 11 Economics. When I went to university though and studied accounting in the mid eighties I quickly discovered that what I had learnt in high school economics was far from the whole picture and infact in some cases was plain wrong because of its very simplistic view of reality.
By the way there are a lot of pilots that frequent this forum that have considerable qualifications in addition to an ATPL. I suggest you think about that the next time you tell us to “get down off our high horses for just 30 seconds and apply ourselves to understanding basic business principles”. Pretty arrogant comment if you ask me from someone that quite obviously has little more than a high school economics education.
Join Date: Dec 2004
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In my company, the receptionist gets paid more than the pilots...she bugs us when its 1 month before our medicals are due and we have to pay..$400 this year..more than a weeks pay after tax
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Melbourne may aswell call it china these days
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"In my company, the receptionist gets paid more than the pilots"
Why do you still work there then?
Do you have any self-respect?
you're making a joke of yourself mate.
Why do you still work there then?
Do you have any self-respect?
you're making a joke of yourself mate.
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Really do you think either Manning or Dixon is worried , by the end of the year both Manning and Dixon will have taken their respective retirement benefits and bonus' and will be walking out the door laughing all the way to the bank, giving the bird to who ever is left to pick up the pieces !
Join Date: Mar 2008
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I don't know what you all expected CM to say. No, he didn't exactly speak the truth, but if he wants to keep his job at the end of the day he needs to say the right things by those above him. Also, if he wants the company to do well, he knows that it basically comes down to the number of punters you've got on seats. Most people who watched this won't be pilots who know the real situation, so it won't look good if he goes saying negative things about the company in front of them. Pity about those constraints though, coz I'm sure that he'd have a few good things to say if it wasn't going to paint the company in a bad image or lose him his job.
Don't bother shooting me down over half defending him, just seriously what do you expect him to say when management's breathing down his neck?!
Don't bother shooting me down over half defending him, just seriously what do you expect him to say when management's breathing down his neck?!
Last edited by QF2; 5th Apr 2008 at 14:03.
Seasonally Adjusted
the very people who are giving you that job that you think you so richly deserve are struggling in a very competitive enviroment to make enough money to keep their company viable.
Join Date: Mar 2008
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I said don't bother shooting me down, did you seriously think he'd throw away his job, and probably his career, for an interview? I'm not saying that it was necessarily the correct thing to do, but you'd be kidding yourselves if you actually thought he was going to come out and say the full truth.
Why don't one of you guys write to the Jerno at the 7:30 report and fill her in ( so to speak 
) on the real facts?
You never know what she might do if she had all the details.
And as for Grogmonster: you sound like Aircraft.........he left the scene, why don't you join him?
) on the real facts?You never know what she might do if she had all the details.
And as for Grogmonster: you sound like Aircraft.........he left the scene, why don't you join him?
That'd be right....................never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
Maybe a few more guys/ girls ringing her up might convince her, then again...........
Maybe a few more guys/ girls ringing her up might convince her, then again...........