Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific
Reload this Page >

Why is OZ even considering Lion Air???

Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Why is OZ even considering Lion Air???

Old 12th Mar 2008, 00:27
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: A Kitchen in Southpark
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Why is OZ even considering Lion Air???

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599...03-401,00.html

After yet another serious Indonesian Airline accident, why is Australian still considering letting an Indonesian carrier operate domestically in Australia?? We should be following the example of the EU...

With QF / DJ / JQ / TT all ordering more aircraft, can the Australian market cope with another carrier anyway??
The Chef is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2008, 00:37
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Boldly going where no split infinitive has gone before..
Posts: 4,783
Received 44 Likes on 20 Posts
The EU hasn't banned Indonesian OWNED airlines! Just those operating on Indonesian AOCs.

As I understand it, Lion will be 51% Australian owned, with an Australian AOC. It will come under the regulation oc CASA, so it's up to them to assure standards and complience.
Wizofoz is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2008, 01:16
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Using Sky air world's AOC as a start up called Lion air Australia..51% OZ owned therefore becomes an OZ airline -

Last edited by hot tuna; 12th Mar 2008 at 01:33.
hot tuna is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2008, 01:20
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 545
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
its not the airlines it's the regulator!!!!!?????

as titled - the key precipe is that it's up to CASA to regulate. Too this end all journalists should refer to CASA chief B.Byron's statments and war cries at the presser held at the opening of last year's safer skies talkfest in Canberra.

Sadly despite the CASA boss drawing the line in the sand, CASA's performance in this respect by the granting some of the illogical dispensations given to some LCC's (or new world carriers as some like to called), - including 'defacto' ETOPs, suggests that (still) nobody is listening to the boss.

Baseline for me is that if anyone wants to fly in Oz skies they must be made to comply with a common set of standards and the notion of self regulation/compliance/reporting be set aside. (esp. given the likes of Lion's 'impressive' safety achievements).

If they fly on a FAOC then they should be made to upgrade to Aust standards rather than us issuing dispensations.

Open skies and deregulation should not be a predecessor to downgraded safety.
airtags is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2008, 01:53
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The Chef

I think word of mouth is a pretty strong thing, it will not matter if CASA give them the nod or not. You don't get bums on seats because of a fundamental perception that you are not safe - well the market will speak and they will not be around for long.

Saying that there is every chance that the travelling public are fairly stupid and if they can ride for eg $4.95 between Adl and Mlb, they'll do it.

Market forces will hopefully take care of them. That's if they even get going.
TurbineDreamer is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2008, 01:59
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: QRH
Posts: 546
Received 5 Likes on 2 Posts
Thumbs down Why another LCC?

Here's to the day I can travel domestically with a choice of full service carriers.
Led Zep is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2008, 02:10
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Behind You
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Amen to that Led Zep.
THRidle is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2008, 03:19
  #8 (permalink)  

Evertonian
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: #3117# Ppruner of the Year Nominee 2005
Posts: 12,437
Received 89 Likes on 50 Posts
"It's Merpati & I'll fly when I want to, fly when I want to....you could fly to if you're as dumb as meeeeee"
Buster Hyman is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2008, 09:11
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Anywhere but here
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Why is OZ even considering Lion Air???
BECAUSE, Jen Hawkins has some form of involvement or knowledge that the mob exist!
Dixondik is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2008, 22:03
  #10 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: various places .....
Posts: 7,178
Received 92 Likes on 61 Posts
It's Merpati & I'll fly when I want to, fly when I want to

A couple of consultant mates of mine could tell a tale or two from some years back out in the back blocks of the Indonesian hinterland ... then again, they did get to see more of the local area than was originally anticipated .. in between trips to the airport ...

Having flown a number of times on Indonesian carriers from Garuda down .. the only one which really sticks in the mind was a G1 flight to Ambon .. but I won't bore you with the details .. other than to say it was interesting.
john_tullamarine is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2008, 22:18
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'm not (yet) confident that Lion Air will even fly in Australia...

I'm also yet to totally understand SkyAirWorld either and their strategy. On the one hand they're operating their own RPT services to Honiara, then they're wet/damp leasing to others such as Air Nuigini. Plus the odd charter. Then they're chasing (reportedly) mining contracts and finally looking at doing the Lion Air deal!

Their future fleet is a bit of mixed bag as well - E170, E190, E145s (any news on these and where they'll go?) and of course the joint-venture Lion Air 739ERs!
apacau is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2008, 07:22
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Victoria
Posts: 1,483
Received 6 Likes on 3 Posts
So if I fly on Lion, I get to sit next to Jennifer, but if I fly on Jetstar, I sit next to Magda?



No contest, is there
Lasiorhinus is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2008, 08:08
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne, oz
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The only ones who would consider flying Lion are the bogan element similar to those who have embraced Tiger. If a Lion aircraft pranged in Aus it would save the country a fortune in dole , single mother and other bogan payments.

Bring them on! The "current affair" programs will have a feast on such types complaining when they don't get 5 star hotel accomodation when their 30 dollar flight to Sydney is cancelled.

Sitting back with the remote in hand now!
priapism is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2008, 08:14
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Horn Island
Posts: 1,044
Received 33 Likes on 8 Posts
If Lion Air have an Australian AOC, employ Australian crews, and Australian engineers, whats the problem?
Do you suspect they will give all their staff lobotomies so the wonderful Australian Airline culture is downgraded to the Indonesian version.
Not only would I fly with them, I may even apply for a job with them.

The main difference is that it will be funded by Rupiah with Indo input into management. Consider what we think or our current management and is that such a problem?

I can assure you that regardless of the nationality of my superior, I will not be operating any different to how I do now, and its an insult to believe any other pilots, engineers would either.

I thought they were planning on being a full service carier?
RENURPP is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2008, 23:49
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Above the Trenches
Posts: 189
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
From what I've read on their website the Australian operation will be a 3 class setup i.e. full service. Crewed by Aussies, maintained by Aussies, heavy maintenance done in a 3rd world country. No difference to Qantas or Virgin really...
The Baron is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2008, 00:11
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: australia
Age: 74
Posts: 907
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Except, unlike Qantas ,Lion's aircraft I expect, won't be museum pieces!
blow.n.gasket is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2008, 00:24
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oz
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by priapism
The only ones who would consider flying Lion are the bogan element similar to those who have embraced Tiger. If a Lion aircraft pranged in Aus it would save the country a fortune in dole , single mother and other bogan payments.

Bring them on! The "current affair" programs will have a feast on such types complaining when they don't get 5 star hotel accomodation when their 30 dollar flight to Sydney is cancelled.

Sitting back with the remote in hand now!
Remote in one hand... ...in the other!

Australian AOC, Australian crews....hellloooo!!!!!

Originally Posted by Renurpp
If Lion Air have an Australian AOC, employ Australian crews, and Australian engineers, whats the problem?
Do you suspect they will give all their staff lobotomies so the wonderful Australian Airline culture is downgraded to the Indonesian version.
Not only would I fly with them, I may even apply for a job with them.

The main difference is that it will be funded by Rupiah with Indo input into management. Consider what we think or our current management and is that such a problem?

I can assure you that regardless of the nationality of my superior, I will not be operating any different to how I do now, and its an insult to believe any other pilots, engineers would either.

I thought they were planning on being a full service carier?
Much better!
FoxtrotAlpha18 is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2008, 07:50
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 38
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
here's some info I dug up on this from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_Australia
Even though it will be majority owned by SkyAirWorld, Lion Air president Rusdi Kiranait was reported as saying that his company would be the operator and control the business
So this wouldn't be an Australian based airline, it would be Indonesian based because as it stated, Lion Air would be operating it.

The fleet they'll be operating over here would have previously been maintained and operated using indonesian standards and it's no doubt that they'll be using their own Lion Air facilities in Indonesia to continue the maintanence of this fleet, which will be allowed to fly domestic and international routes throughout Australia and south-east asia.

Yes, a lot of Australian airlines outsource some of their repairs to facilities in asia, but they still do the majority of the servicing in Australia using our standards and workers.

People will argue that they'll be maintained to meet CASA's requirements, but at the end of the day, the work would have been done in some third world workshop with workplace standards well below Australia's funded by a company that doesn't have a good safety track record.
Aeroplane Jelly is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2008, 21:43
  #19 (permalink)  
Ralph the Bong
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
AJ, there is a massive amount of ignorance regarding the standards in 3rd world countries. You will find, if ever you venture off shore, that there are some very well established and resourced maintenance organisations staffed with knowlegable, dedicated engineers.

On the other hand, there some really crap maintenance providers in Australia.

There is no doubt that there will be some difficulties in cultural attitudes between SAW and Lionair, but who is to say that they cannot be overcome? I cannot see why this company should neccessarily be shonky, as some have suggested.

I wonder if the whole venture revolves more around access to European ports (which Lionair has lost and would regain by using an Australian AOC) than access to the Australian market.
 
Old 14th Mar 2008, 23:40
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Dunedin, NZ
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think the 6 Lion Air Australia planes will be newly delivered from the production line.

If Lion Air Australia wants to have the planes maintained in Asia, it will have to be at a facility that has been approved by CASA. If Lion wants to operate the planes on EROPS, the facility will need that approval as well. Besides, it is a long distance to ferry Australian based 737s somewhere in Asia for periodical checks, when there are lots of Australian or NZ bases within close range of SE Australia.

Talking about range - the range of a 737-900ER is about 3200 miles, right? Indonesia is the only Asian country within that sort of range from SE Australia. Bali is well within that range. Even Jakarta is just on the edge of the published range of a 739. I do not think there is anywhere else in Asia you could fly to non stop from SE Australia in a 739. Singapore, Malaysia look like they are beyond the non stop range. If you have to do a stop in Darwin or Cairns on the way to Asia that seems to limit what the plane would do for you. As a plane for Transcon Australian routes - Brisbane-Perth, or Trans Tasman the 739 would be a great plane.
alangirvan is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.