Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

SilkAir MI 185

Old 20th Feb 2008, 01:55
  #21 (permalink)  
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Gidday Slasher, how's it all going in Nam? See U still giving that spell checker a good work out!

This is for you!
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Old 20th Feb 2008, 02:02
  #22 (permalink)  
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The Parker Hannifin case was the one that PH had to lose in order to appease an important Boeing customer - SQ. PH planned to mount an agressive appeal to the finding but, to the extreme surprise of PH's attorneys, the appeal was dropped. Blame politics at the time but PH's attorneys certainly wanted to proceed.

One of the plaintiff's attorneys in the PH court case appeared in the Nat Geo documentary on MI 185. He lost considerable credibility when he referred to the B737 fuel dump system. It doesn't have one.

The crash of MI 185 was not caused by any system or component malfunction, rudder or otherwise. A "human" component was solely responsible - and I use the word "human" with much hesitation.
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Old 20th Feb 2008, 08:31
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Aw! look...this report of Macs is full of holes!...

let's start with a simple one...

he say's the skipper pulled the CVR c/b...

but doesn't state it's position...

does he know where it is?

Being a G/A pilot, I doubt it!
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Old 20th Feb 2008, 09:32
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Given that NONE of us were onboard MI185 when all this took place, what we have left is an interpretation of the available known hard evidence. It then becomes an educated guess as to what happened based on that evidence.

Mac's background and experience makes that educated guess worthy of serious consideration.

Again, I ask amos,
what's your spin on MI 185, go on let us in on it so we can compare it to that of Mac's.
tipsy
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Old 20th Feb 2008, 10:02
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Well, I don't have any "spin", as you put it on, on this 737 prang, Tipsy.

I'm just not impressed with comments like..." the scream of a fast flying jet"

or..."it appeared to be upside down"

or..."Five units of flap". How much flap is that? I know, but does Mac?

I mean, Mac Job gives no references what so ever to any other publications re his claims. This is simply speculative journalism, which is his forte from days gone by! Or does he still do it? I don't know, I gave up reading his rubbish years ago!

And now we have this rubbish!
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Old 20th Feb 2008, 11:50
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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I would like to congratulate Marcarthur Job for reporting the investigation facts as they were found and especially for reporting the inescapable logical conclusions to be drawn from those facts.

The cover-up attempts by the Singapore Government and also their heavy handed leaning on the Indonesian Government to do like-wise with the Indonesian investigation makes a complete mockery of aviation safety in the civilised world.

It is an immense relief that some country's aviation accident investigation and safety branch has finally had the guts to stand up to the orchestrated lies of the Asian Governments involved.

Well done to Macarthur Job, to CASA and to Bruce Byron the CEO of CASA for making this happen!
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Old 20th Feb 2008, 12:29
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Oh please, Flex!...spare us your drivel...

any 737 pilot with half a brain knew what caused this prang 10 YEARS AGO!!

Mac Job, CASA and Byron, with no 737 time between them, bring forth this revelation thats been a given to all of us for so long it doesn't feature on the radar any more!

Give us a break!
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Old 20th Feb 2008, 20:13
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Amos2,

I have 12+ years experience on the B737. Mac Job has had access to ALL the evidence and his version is the only accurate one to date.

And, yes, it was PROVED that the PIC pulled the CBs to both the CVR and DFDR.

And, yes, the stab trim was in the full down position and, yes, the autothrottles had been disconnected and the engines were at high power - in a dive??

And, yes, local villagers did mention a "screaming jet' and the sound of "thunder" but without any clouds.

And, yes, it was inverted at the point of impact.

Mac Job received this info from the most reliable sources.

There is absolutely no doubt as to the cause.

Last edited by Casper; 20th Feb 2008 at 22:47.
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Old 21st Feb 2008, 01:07
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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For those wishing to take a swipe at Mac Job may I remind you that he was the editor of the Flight Safety mag back when it really was a safety mag. Most of you may well have been in short pants at the time.
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Old 21st Feb 2008, 01:14
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs up

3 Holer. Thanks mate!
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Old 21st Feb 2008, 05:56
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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When I find my metric adjustable spanner, I will be able to fix my walking frame to enable me to be on bended knee in the presence of O wise one (aka amos)

tipsy.
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Old 22nd Feb 2008, 03:09
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Singapore Censorship

Post #9

I was living in Singapore at the time and I agree with Slasher.
I was also living in Singapore at the time, although was not working in the aviation industry. A friend of mine, a qualified pilot but not working in that industry at the time, mentioned to me (this was a year or so after the crash) that the relatives of the deceased were so disturbed at the pace & integrity of the investigation, that they had requested a meeting with (then) PM Goh Chok Tong. Apparently he refused such a meeting.

Post #20

Watching that cornerstone of aviation fact, Air crash Investigation (note sarcasm), the program postulates that other factors were responsible citing evidence such as similarities between SA 185 and UA 585 rudder hard over, the fact that the FDR had been switching itself off in the preceding flights etc.
I had always wondered what the final analysis of this crash was. I recently saw the Air Crash Investigations episode that you were referring to. There was mention that the police investigated the pilot's apparent financial woes, but concluded that he was solvent at the time of the accident. So I thought what they had presented in this episode to be true and correct.

Post #22

The Parker Hannifin case was the one that PH had to lose in order to appease an important Boeing customer - SQ. PH planned to mount an agressive appeal to the finding but, to the extreme surprise of PH's attorneys, the appeal was dropped. Blame politics at the time but PH's attorneys certainly wanted to proceed.

One of the plaintiff's attorneys in the PH court case appeared in the Nat Geo documentary on MI 185. He lost considerable credibility when he referred to the B737 fuel dump system. It doesn't have one.
If that's the case then all credibility has been lost.

Post #5

Agreed. His Mt Erebus write-up was excellent too... if you can get your hands on it, do so.
Erebus appears in Vol 2. The Introduction to this volume is written by Gordon Vette, which is also well worth reading. Now there's a man with integrity.
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Old 22nd Feb 2008, 20:21
  #33 (permalink)  
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I had always wondered what the final analysis of this crash was. I recently saw the Air Crash Investigations episode that you were referring to. There was mention that the police investigated the pilot's apparent financial woes, but concluded that he was solvent at the time of the accident. So I thought what they had presented in this episode to be true and correct.
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The Singapore Police concluded that he was solvent at the time. This is SINGAPORE police, remember, and they are part of Singapore Inc. Likewise, the CAAS, RSAF, SQ, MI etc etc.

The independent Price Waterhouse audit of the PIC's finances painted a vastly different picture, so much so that a genuine attempt was made to re-open the investigation under ICAO Annex 13 a few years ago. The Indonesian NTSC (with a new chairman) would have none of it, however.

When the CVR was played at the NTSB in Washington, it was realised with some considerable shock that the recording ended abruptly. When asked if that occurred often, the NTSB representative, who knew absolutely nothing of the PIC's financial or company problems, declared: "No, this does not happen often. This is bizarre. Now, we have to consider pilot suicide." As stated, this statement was made by someone who knew nothing of TWM's demotion or financial woes.

The PH case was one of political concern. PH changed their attorneys after the case and their new ones were preparing an aggressive appeal when politics intervened to appease a valuable Boeing customer - SQ. Never underestimate Singapore Inc aka Lyin' City.

When the TV NZ program on MI 185 went to air, the local manager of SQ in NZ made a complaint to the NZ Broadcasting Commission. This was made despite the fact that SQ had earlier declined an invitation to contribute to and be part of the production.

Why were we not surprised?
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 11:21
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Singapore Police

The Singapore Police concluded that he was solvent at the time. This is SINGAPORE police, remember, and they are part of Singapore Inc. Likewise, the CAAS, RSAF, SQ, MI etc etc.
On my rare encounters with the Singapore Police over fairly minor matters, I never had any problems with them. But point taken, there is a certain lack of tranparency on certain occasions, particularly with the big decisions (I am referring here to the endless amounts of civil suits launched against opposition party members in the past 20+ years).

When the TV NZ program on MI 185 went to air, the local manager of SQ in NZ made a complaint to the NZ Broadcasting Commission. This was made despite the fact that SQ had earlier declined an invitation to contribute to and be part of the production.
Was it made by TVNZ? I only saw the episode once, and just assumed that it was another epiosde of Air Crash Investigations, in which case it would have been made by Cineflix's Montreal office. But if it was made by TVNZ then it must have been called something else (never saw it on TV, just on one of the internet sites).
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 11:44
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He's just another bloke with an opinion!...not necessarily the correct one!
You miss the point completely. Mac Job is a first class aviation journalist. His expertese lies in his ability to plough through pages and pages of an accident report and by picking out the salient points turn the report into an eminently readable account of the accident. The "opinions" you complain about are nothing more than views of accident investigators put into intelligent and concise English by Mac. In his Air Disaster series he chose the subject matter after consulting with various experienced airline pilots. He has never pretended to be an "expert" but rather a fine journalist and former pilot with a wonderful flair for writing with dignity.

And by the way. No mention has ever been made of the professional "mouths for hire" brought from Europe that were presented by the defendents as so called expert witnesses at the court case. I sat next to them in the court room.

And as to the knowledge of the position of the circuit breakers in the 737 and other technical matters pertaining to the operation of MI 185, you might be interested to know that Mac was an observer present in the 737 simulator when various crash scenarios were tested. Forget the uncommanded runaway rudder theory too. It was dead easy to recover from that at cruise altitude in the simulator even with a 10 second delay before countering its effect. Been there-done that.

Last edited by Tee Emm; 24th Feb 2008 at 12:01.
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 20:00
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Biggest mistake of Indonesian investigators was to let Boeing & NTSB fella get their hands on the acft parts and FDR/CVR...some " magic " happened!

Sadly because of the state of corruption and disorganisation in Indonesia, local investigators were treated like buffoons. So to get some credibility, they naively handed over a lot of things that could have exonerated the skipper to "people" who worked " magic " over the evidence.

Those fellow Indons who worked the case......it's time to come out of your crummy, yellow back shells!
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 20:39
  #37 (permalink)  
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Biggest mistake of Indonesian investigators was to let Boeing & NTSB fella get their hands on the acft parts and FDR/CVR...some " magic " happened!

Sadly because of the state of corruption and disorganisation in Indonesia, local investigators were treated like buffoons. So to get some credibility, they naively handed over a lot of things that could have exonerated the skipper to "people" who worked " magic " over the evidence.
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No "magic" was worked on the evidence. I was there when it was recovered and physically watched as each flight control component was examined by investigators from all countries taking part. Both the DFDR and CVR were escorted by international teams to the NTSB for analysis.

No magic could have exonerated the skipper. He did it all by himself.
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 21:52
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Wow, you must have been in that cockpit then. John Edwards, Sylvia Brownne etc must have communicated your message here!
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 23:31
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" I was zapped out of my body, floating attached via my silver cord above the MI185 crash investigation scene watching every flt control component examined............; I found Colin Fry to channel my message... I know the skipper did it! " Dead man tells no lies?
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Old 25th Feb 2008, 08:59
  #40 (permalink)  
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Tongkat Ali and Ali Sadikin,

You both must be complete lightweights. I tell you the facts and you still come up with drivel. Obviously, you simply wish "to ignore and, consequently, it did not happen." Very sad. That says it all. That mentality really identifies a very real risk to aviation - in some (geographic) areas. Will you ever learn?
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