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Jetstar EBA 4 results. merged.

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Jetstar EBA 4 results. merged.

Old 5th Feb 2008, 04:52
  #1 (permalink)  
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Jetstar EBA 4 results. merged.

Following a 56% vote against the proposed EBA it would seem that some J* pilots are approaching management for individual contracts under the failed EBA conditions rather than standing by fellow J* pilots who were planning to return to the table.

The J* pilot group now seems headed toward three independent sets of conditions, AWA for new hires at the bottom with unspecified pay reviews, those under the EBA and a further group of AWA participants on a combination of the two.

So this is how J* got such a bad name in Aussie Aviation
Willie Nelson is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2008, 05:26
  #2 (permalink)  

Grandpa Aerotart
 
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who were planning to return to the table.
This is where the No voters royally fecked up. There was never going to be a 'return to the table' the day after a No vote, or a week, or month after. This was very clear...didn't they believe what they were told?

If those who voted No didn't believe what they were being told then they were not negotiating in good faith...'good faith' essentially means trust.

Why did they vote NO...because AIPA and AFAP said to?

How many NO voters explored why AIPA/AFAP recommended that course of action?
Chimbu chuckles is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2008, 06:06
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There was never going to be a 'return to the table' the day after a No vote, or a week, or month after. This was very clear...didn't they believe what they were told?
Why would they?

There is no such thing as good faith with these characters.

You will see Chimbu, they'll be back, I am certain of it, although the cause is not being helped by the minority of the minority offering to go on an AWA with the conditions of the defeated EBA. Fools....
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Old 5th Feb 2008, 06:14
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CC, I observe the following facts:-

There IS a pilot shortage.
The airlines can afford to pay more (currently experiencing excellent profits & because their opposition will have to pay more, the competitive position won't be compromised).
The management will return to the negotiating table (otherwise crew will leave for higher paying airlines).
Throughout the period of the Agreement (4 years), pilot salaries will increase significantly throughout the world (supply & demand), therefore it is madness to sign up to a shoddy offer.
Any moves by individuals to sign contracts is a very short sighted act which will leave them vulnerable when the shortage is not as severe and it undermines the collective actions of their peers.
It is always tempting to take a payrise now to have immediate access the slightly improved remuneration but by allowing time for negotiations to achieve a better outcome (& make management sweat) the rewards will be significantly better for the rest of their career.

GB
Going Boeing is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2008, 07:13
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Chimbu,

I believe even the company had agreed to return to the table in the normal course of its expiry and renegotiate the EBA. Why individuals would run off from the Rank and File and go beg for their own deal is simply beyond the ridiculous.

If DJ pilots, Qantaslink pilots, Qantas Engineers all managed to stick together to obtain better deals this action beggars belief.
Willie Nelson is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2008, 11:05
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Anything goes at JQ..why trust a fellow pilot

Ambiguity and uncertainty are written into the human condition. We may value 'the truth' and we may value 'not causing harm to other'. Yet there will be times when we know that telling the truth will hurt someone. Sadly today the strong tendency is to conclude that none of this matters and that anything goes. In the end it is all about ethical behaviour and sadly ethics is a barren commodity for many of my fellow pilots.

After I posted the thread "at drinks with AJ" I received several emails telling me to shut up or my career would be put on hold. I stated in that thread that AJ said that if the pilots didn't toe the line he would introduce AWAs.

Last week the pilot group voted. The EBA went down.

Over the weekend I have been pestered by members of the JPC - the people entrusted by us to represent us; not their self interests.

I was told that the JPC and 100 other pilots have all advised AJ that they want to sign AWAs. I have been told that the AWA is the agreement we voted down with one additional clause - when we put a new EBA in place, you can choose to remain on the AWA or move to the new EBA.

"Just ring AJ or Rohan and put your name on the list".

Interesting. It is also interesting that one of the JPC members who was on the outer has gone from being persona non grata to a sim checkie during the course of the negotiations. It is also intersting that this individual is the driving force in the AWA push.

It is a pity that a little transparency could not be applied by AJ and the JPC with a newsletter or the like instead of this clandestine approach. All facts to all people at the same time.

Ethical behaviour is good business.

Any morale that may have existed at JQ is dead. AJ and his management team have to accept a large share of the blame. But, and sadly this is a big BUT, a lack of ethical behavour by the JPC is also a large contributory factor. They have introduced the in fighting that will now erupt. Mark my words.

Last edited by Pundit; 5th Feb 2008 at 11:07. Reason: editorial
Pundit is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2008, 11:13
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'Pundit' all I can say is document/write everything down that has been said, threatened & even carried out to date.

Humans also have two major reactive proceedures in place for all ocassions that show threat.. Fight or Flight!...........believe it or not it's the ones that take flight that can be the most destructive.

Stay alert

CW
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Old 5th Feb 2008, 11:24
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This is indeed a dark dark day. For those who broke the ranks may have forever changed the Jetstar landscape for future collective bargining.

This is a dark day for Australian aviation
drshmoo is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2008, 11:50
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Oh get over it. This is just a little scrap over pay and whether Jetstar pilots go from being vaguely well paid to adequately paid (still haven't seen the EBA but have the broad figures). It is not Gallipoli or Dunkirk or Stalingrad or Guadalcanal. It is certainly not 1989.

Those who voted "NO" got what they wanted didn't they? Everyone from AIPA downawards on these boards has been telling pilots to look after themselves.

So a few guys do....and all they get is what they would have got anyway if the EBA had got up. Excuse me.......there is a scent of AIPA flavoured over-reaction here.
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Old 5th Feb 2008, 11:52
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After I posted the thread "at drinks with AJ" I received several emails telling me to shut up or my career would be put on hold. I stated in that thread that AJ said that if the pilots didn't toe the line he would introduce AWAs.
You were not told your career would be put on hold, you were told that when WE, (Jetstar Pilots) "find out who you are, management would be the least of your problems". AWAs had already been introduced at that time, so again you are full of it. Guess what. "WE" now know who you are.

Last week the pilot group voted. The EBA went down.
Over the weekend I have been pestered by members of the JPC - the people entrusted by us to represent us; not their self interests.

I was told that the JPC and 100 other pilots have all advised AJ that they want to sign AWAs. I have been told that the AWA is the agreement we voted down with one additional clause - when we put a new EBA in place, you can choose to remain on the AWA or move to the new EBA.

"Just ring AJ or Rohan and put your name on the list".
I wish I had got that call. You are important.

Interesting. It is also interesting that one of the JPC members who was on the outer has gone from being persona non grata to a sim checkie during the course of the negotiations. It is also intersting that this individual is the driving force in the AWA push.
Now here is another little phurphy. I do understand that this is a rumour network. However NO MEMBER of the JPA representatives has progressed to "Sim Checkie" during the course of the negotiations. No member of the JPA has been involved in a push for AWAs under the conditions of EBA4. Sadly Pundit is really full of misinformation.

It is a pity that a little transparency could not be applied by AJ and the JPC with a newsletter or the like instead of this clandestine approach. All facts to all people at the same time.

Ethical behaviour is good business.

Any morale that may have existed at JQ is dead. AJ and his management team have to accept a large share of the blame. But, and sadly this is a big BUT, a lack of ethical behavour by the JPC is also a large contributory factor. They have introduced the in fighting that will now erupt. Mark my words.
How many Newsletters do you need. There were 5 about the proposed EBA 4at last count.

You are one sad puppy. I suspect that you actually don't comprehend what ethical behaviour means. But that doesn't really matter now. You and your equally illogical colleagues have managed to remove the future from the grasp of all Jetstar EBA pilots. The commands that you thought were coming your way will most likely not now, both narrowbody and widebody. You have collectively contributed to the disintergration of your own aspirations.

There have been no Newsletters regarding future AWAs because there have been no decisions made by J* management in that regard. You are spreading little lies again.
fistfokker is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2008, 12:47
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Don't you idiots learn?
1989
1999 Ansett NZ
49ers @ CX
It's sad to watch.
You're being divided; next you'll be conquered; then you're [email protected]$ked.
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Old 5th Feb 2008, 13:04
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Farkinarss
Spot on
drshmoo is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2008, 14:38
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Silly little man I know who u r as well. Sad thing is you run straight to a rumour mill. Go figure??? U join other idiots with nothing better to do to than to speculate about terms and conditions within Jetstar on this site. U are dangerous!
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Old 5th Feb 2008, 15:21
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Speedy/Willie/GB.

The expectation among the No voters, I believe, was that a No vote would galvanise J* management into putting their 'real' final offer on the table despite them being repeatedly told that this was the real offer and that a No vote would result in nothing further happening before September at the earliest. No voters seemed to also believe that AIPA/AFAP was riding in like white nights to save them from a lackluster JPC/evil management.

Speedy seems to think it will still happen that way.

You're dreaming. With all the indications of slowing economy, threat of looming recession etc etc there is just NO WAY any responsible management would dare preempt things in such a way when as it stands pilots are NOT leaving J* in significant numbers.

Joyce gave his word, (in front of many pilots) that all current J* pilots on AWAs would be offered EBA 4 if it was voted up and that no pilots would be offered AWAs/Individual contracts on better conditions in the future.

When asked if he would honor that promise in the case of a No vote he said he would, in those circumstances, do whatever he needed to do to ensure the success of J*.

This wasn't a threat he was simply answering a direct question with a direct answer.

Those pilots who voted No essentially voted against group solidarity.

So who voted No?

Wouldn't have been too many captains...they stood to gain a great deal.

Wouldn't have been too many cruise FOs...they stood to gain, % wise, the most.

So we are left with FOs who 'only' stood to gain about 9% (6+3) 18 extra days off/annum, and a maximum of 3 reserve days/mth if rostered for < 75 hours...among a whole raft of other improvements in their T&Cs...as well as having their command prospects protected to the extent that that is possible in any airline. FOs who, without exception, have been in J* less than 18 months and who likely would all have been given an opportunity to successfully complete a command course in the next 2 years..and that time frame applying to the most junior/least experienced current FO. These very same people are demanding VB equivalent T&Cs but when asked why they don't just go and apply to VB say "Well I don't want to be away from home all the time".

The No voters are all about "Me, me, I want" and yet they come to this place and claim the Yes voters, those who voted FOR solidarity, who voted to protect the command prospects of (inexperienced) FOs, who voted for Cruise FOs (SOs) to be paid the same as all FOs, are selfish wreckers

And if they had really done the numbers they would have found they were bloody close to VB (better in places-2k for working a day off as an example) while still maintaining a better lifestyle.

They will, of course, come on here and claim the 55% for new hire 1st year FOs was a disgrace. VB do the same thing...and when you consider the average experience of new hire FOs it is probably not unreasonable given the extra training they would require to have any hope of being upgradeable within the very short time frames J* WAS talking about.

Just how stupid are these people?
Chimbu chuckles is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2008, 19:23
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CC, I understand that JQ management initiated these negotiations 12 months before the current EBA expires. This is very unusual for QF Group management and can only be interpreted as their desire to lock in T's & C's before the pilot shortage becomes more severe. AJ might have genuinely believed that there would be no further offers but reality will force him back to the negotiating table with some additional benefits for crew. Pilots are currently in the strongest industrial position that they have ever had so it is time for every pilot to stand together and get the remuneration that they deserve.
Going Boeing is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2008, 21:03
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Meow Fistfokker

1. You were not one of the six who contacted me - fact

2. Your name was specifically mentioned in the AWA discussions - fact

3. XXXX progress in the training department accelerated after he joined the negotiation team - fact

4. A newsletter from the company specifically addressing the new AWA offer has not been issued - fact

5. If I begin to discuss ethics and you the tread would be closed. But perhaps that is what you and your unprincipled mates want - most likely fact

NO NAMES

Much Ado
Pundit is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2008, 21:24
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Red face

How embarrassing. This thread highlights all too well for the world to see the problems faced by Jetstar pilots when it comes to dealing with the company themselves.

DM
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Old 5th Feb 2008, 21:28
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This is just a little scrap over pay ......... It is not Gallipoli or Dunkirk or Stalingrad or Guadalcanal. It is certainly not 1989.
Gallipoli: 300,000 casualties
Guadalcanal: 30,000 casualties
Stalingrad: 1.5 million casualties
Dunkirk: 40,000 casualties
1989: zero casualties (except for a few bent egos and broken dreams).

So it is like 1989; just a little scrap over pay where management and union heavies try to marshal the workers for their own personal agendas.

However the difference is some people seem to be batting for the other team this time around.
Conscious.pilate is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2008, 21:28
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I would'nt worry too much Pundit,

The JPA in their present form will be gone soon, after the roadshows AIPA will conduct over the next month or so we (i'm sure) will be asked to vote on a new JPA, and I can almost say for certain, that the current JPA members with other motives will be moved on.

If it is true that current JPA members have asked to sign awa's they are effectively killing off the JPA as everyone will have to do their own negiotiating.

As for you CC, you are a dreamer, last I looked the economy was booming with 9 interest rate rises in a row, and no sign of it slowing, so if we cant get a better deal now, we'll never get one!!

Also if the J* management want a divided pilot group, they are slitting their own wrists, and if guys want to go onto AWA'a and fark everyone else over I can only see it ending in pain, with cancelled flights, poor OTP and terrible moral in the company.
G Cantstandya is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2008, 21:38
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Yes you are correct DM. But visibility it is necessary because of ourselves. Because the JPC is absolutely secretive and in bed with AJ. I put a post under another thread. Following is an extract from that post.
Airline Management has the pilot movement exactly where they want it. Divided. And the likelihood of any change to that in the short to medium term seems highly improbable.
.......

AIPA will have to be prepared to create new alliances with those they view as being less significant but caught in the same dilemma.

The challenge, in other words, involves not taking the meaning of cooperation to a higher plane, but restoring it; restoring it to the plateau where we were prior to 1981. This awesome task does not begin by examining AIPAís own complaints about the new system, it begins by grasping what will happen to all of us if we donít impose a united position on management.
The AFAP is a dead duck. Forget them. AIPA and the JQ pilots need to get together asap, else the "fistf*kkers" of this world ("yes Alan yes Alan") will destroy all of us
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