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Looks like now Woods can't be credibly tarred and feathered; Duggan is to be set up by the Stooges as the bogey man who will do the Jetstar pilots in.
Recall that Duggan bucketed Woods badly a few years back. That Woods now works with him to further the interests of AIPA's mainline members only confirms that Woods is a man for all seasons and someone all Australian pilots can rely upon to bind them together.
As Confucius says; He who looks in the rear view mirror only goes backwards.
More gingerbread anyone?
Recall that Duggan bucketed Woods badly a few years back. That Woods now works with him to further the interests of AIPA's mainline members only confirms that Woods is a man for all seasons and someone all Australian pilots can rely upon to bind them together.
As Confucius says; He who looks in the rear view mirror only goes backwards.
More gingerbread anyone?
Last edited by Gingerbread; 2nd Mar 2008 at 09:41.
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Hmmm....it may also be that this transcript is a reminder that nothing has changed in AIPA's approach and they are indeed determined to rush lemming like to the cliffs behind Woods and Duggan et al as they short-sightedly try to destroy Jetstar, the one part of the Qantas group that has the capacity to adapt quickly to the ever-changing competitive world.
With AIPA administered training freezes, single Mainline adminstered recruitment and posting, AIPA cost levels and inflexibility and Mainline overheads....Jetstar will be dead and buried and like Panam, Eastern and many others before, so will Qantas mainline head to the knackers yard.
A rearview mirror is useful to see the carnage behind and remind us all that there are lessons of history. If AIPA had the strength to do anything, it would not need to use Jetstar pilots as cannon fodder. AIPA adds nothing at all to Jetstar pilots except perhaps the use of the office photocopier to process the termination notices once it has killed off the airline.
With AIPA administered training freezes, single Mainline adminstered recruitment and posting, AIPA cost levels and inflexibility and Mainline overheads....Jetstar will be dead and buried and like Panam, Eastern and many others before, so will Qantas mainline head to the knackers yard.
A rearview mirror is useful to see the carnage behind and remind us all that there are lessons of history. If AIPA had the strength to do anything, it would not need to use Jetstar pilots as cannon fodder. AIPA adds nothing at all to Jetstar pilots except perhaps the use of the office photocopier to process the termination notices once it has killed off the airline.
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You and your mates trying to give JQ pilots an economics 101 lesson on your company website are laughable in your naivety.
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I'm led to believe that training cost/ period to be somewhere around 5 years. However so as not to disadvantage pilots nor the company if a pilot wishes to avail themselves of a promotional opportunity prior to the agreed freeze period finishing, they can still move, however there would be a prorata cost involved depending on how many years of the freeze had been served.
How is that different to paying for an endorsement or a bond? Both of which I believe the AIPA oppose.
What if a pilot couldn't afford or justify the cost of paying out a freeze?
Would the pilot then be disadvantaged?
I don't think the GOAL is achievable, or in the best interest in the short or medium term, of Jetstar pilots. I can't see any benefit to Jetstar pilots that would justify them taking a path at their own risk only, to achieve the GOAL.
Nunc est bibendum
AIPA doesn't oppose bonds. All S/Os joining QF are subject to them and all crew changing types are subject to freezes. Freezes and a return of service obligation are both fine by me and I suspect by the majority of AIPA members.
If I jump and get caught on the wrong type/rank etc then I do that knowing that those are the possibilities. I jumped early for 767 F/O and spent four years rotating. I jumped late for 744 F/O because I thought a 767 command may be around the corner and missed out on two years of earning a ****e load of extra money. I'm not sure what your point is Turbtool.
Short to medium term? Probably nil. Long term? Huge. imagine being able to decide that you may like to bid across to the A380 or other type when seniority allows.
Talk about propaganda. Do you deliberately try and mis-lead or does it come naturally? What risk are J* being asked to take GOAL? They are being asked to consider it as being an option for the future. I see no reason why QF and J* (and QFLink) pilots shouldn't be able to bid at will between fleets/types/ranks IAW a GOAL. Entirely up to the individual to make that choice. Yet you see no benefit in this. You also consider it a 'risk' to seek? Exactly what risk is that? What are J* pilots being asked to 'risk' in order to achieve GOAL? As far as I'm aware the only thing that QF and AIPA pilots have asked of J* pilots is to consider becoming members of AIPA and working together.
I think i can see the supposed 'risk' in this whole GOAL issue for one particular group of J* pilots. There would be many DECs who would be banking on the continued expansion of J* to avoid them having to take up F/O slots in a few years. Perhaps they feel that if the GOAL did get up that because they're on AWAs they'd then drop behind all the QF drivers in getting a promotional slot. Therefore if the EBA gets up they're on the EBA and 'safe ' from the rampaging hordes of QF drivers. If the EBA doesn't get up then they're still on their EBA. If AIPA et al then get the GOAL then perhaps these guys (like Led and his ilk) feel that they'll have to kiss goodbye to retaining their left hand seat.
I suppose that explains the hidden agenda.
If I jump and get caught on the wrong type/rank etc then I do that knowing that those are the possibilities. I jumped early for 767 F/O and spent four years rotating. I jumped late for 744 F/O because I thought a 767 command may be around the corner and missed out on two years of earning a ****e load of extra money. I'm not sure what your point is Turbtool.
I don't think the GOAL is....in the best interest in the short or medium term, of Jetstar pilots.
I can't see any benefit to Jetstar pilots that would justify them taking a path at their own risk only, to achieve the GOAL.
I think i can see the supposed 'risk' in this whole GOAL issue for one particular group of J* pilots. There would be many DECs who would be banking on the continued expansion of J* to avoid them having to take up F/O slots in a few years. Perhaps they feel that if the GOAL did get up that because they're on AWAs they'd then drop behind all the QF drivers in getting a promotional slot. Therefore if the EBA gets up they're on the EBA and 'safe ' from the rampaging hordes of QF drivers. If the EBA doesn't get up then they're still on their EBA. If AIPA et al then get the GOAL then perhaps these guys (like Led and his ilk) feel that they'll have to kiss goodbye to retaining their left hand seat.
I suppose that explains the hidden agenda.
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Keg - This from my previous:
Without any emotion, can you or someone from AIPA COM please explain whether this example is an indication of what could happen if GOAL was implemented ?
The so-called group opportunity list is a proposal that freezes the seniority of existing QAL pilots. This means that for many years no one from regional airlines has any realistic chance of successfully bidding for a vacancy within QAL. Today the Dash 8 captain who has 15 years of seniority at Eastern and wants to take up a first officer position with QAL in a B737, he has no chance. A second officer at QAL with two years' seniority there has bidding rights ahead of the Eastern captain. On the other hand QAL pilots would be able to access opportunity within the regional airlines, such as Jetstar, which are growing fast and therefore creating lots of new jobs.
Nunc est bibendum
I'm not sure what you're getting at with this one Led? It's a relative simple thing. QF have been working with a Y system of seniority for allocation on the 'long haul' and 'short haul' types since 1992(ish). The GOAL just adds a couple of extra branches to the Y.
In the example you use, a current QFlink pilot would take 3-4 years (at current rates) to get a mainline F/O slot. That slot would be allocated on the basis of date of joining if there were two QFLink (or even J* crew) bidding for the same slot. IE if there was no one on the mainline list bidding for the slot then it would go to the next pilot on the GOAL on the basis of seniority. If a J* F/O slot came up in the interim then he or she may be able to bid for that first if they so desired. They may also be able to bid for the S/O slot if they so desired.
So you may say that the GOAL doesn't do much for the current QFLink 15 year captain because he's still five years away from a mainline F/O slot. It actually doesn't do much for most of us currently in the respective airlines in the short- medium term either because it'd be another 3-4 years before any of us would be able to get a slot. There would possibly be some advantage for current S/Os as they may be able to bid for a J* F/O slot in the short term. Of course they may be trumped by the QFLink 15 year Dash captain as this would probably be allocated on joining date.
So yet again you can see that I'm advocating a position that isn't of material benefit to me but would be of significant benefit to others within the group.
I should also point out that the 'supposed risk' that I articulated in the previous post doesn't actually exist in my mind. Irrespective of AWA or EBA, I would expect that the start date that someone started with the airline would remain. Thus, the current DEC who fears of being behind 2500 QF drivers in the seniority pile shouldn't bothing thinking about it. They'll be a J* captain even under the GOAL system.
In the example you use, a current QFlink pilot would take 3-4 years (at current rates) to get a mainline F/O slot. That slot would be allocated on the basis of date of joining if there were two QFLink (or even J* crew) bidding for the same slot. IE if there was no one on the mainline list bidding for the slot then it would go to the next pilot on the GOAL on the basis of seniority. If a J* F/O slot came up in the interim then he or she may be able to bid for that first if they so desired. They may also be able to bid for the S/O slot if they so desired.
So you may say that the GOAL doesn't do much for the current QFLink 15 year captain because he's still five years away from a mainline F/O slot. It actually doesn't do much for most of us currently in the respective airlines in the short- medium term either because it'd be another 3-4 years before any of us would be able to get a slot. There would possibly be some advantage for current S/Os as they may be able to bid for a J* F/O slot in the short term. Of course they may be trumped by the QFLink 15 year Dash captain as this would probably be allocated on joining date.
So yet again you can see that I'm advocating a position that isn't of material benefit to me but would be of significant benefit to others within the group.
I should also point out that the 'supposed risk' that I articulated in the previous post doesn't actually exist in my mind. Irrespective of AWA or EBA, I would expect that the start date that someone started with the airline would remain. Thus, the current DEC who fears of being behind 2500 QF drivers in the seniority pile shouldn't bothing thinking about it. They'll be a J* captain even under the GOAL system.
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Zeppelin, the Dash 8 Captain would have higher bidding rights on a Jetstar position than the mainline S/O. However people who would always have the highest rights on a Jetstar position would be current Jetstar pilots.
Your seniority in your own branch of the Group in preserved. You always have higher rights than anyone else to your own flying and promotions. Your rights group wide, however are based date of joining.
The GOAL lists primary function for it's early years of operation is to protect what you have now. No QF pilot willl get a Jetstar Command before a current Jetstar pilot. No QF pilot will ever be senior to a current Jetstar pilot on the Jetstar list.
No Jetstar pilot will get a slot in mainline before a current mainline pilot. No Jetstar pilot will ever be senior to a current mainline pilot on the mainline list.
Same goes for Qantaslink.
After the date that the GOAL list is finalised, any new joiners can go anywhere their seniority allows, after their freeze/bond period is finished. It is then that you will have Jetstar pilots senior to QF pilots on the list and vice versa, but they will all be junior to current pilots.
The example is TN pilots who now all have seniority in mainline for 767 Commands and they are senior to any QF pilots who joined after them on the combined list. They got their 737 commands ahead of any QF pilots. If they hang around long enough they will get 787/-400/A380 commands. There are some now on the A330 because that is a new type and covered under the Integration Agreement.
Does that explain it for you?
Your seniority in your own branch of the Group in preserved. You always have higher rights than anyone else to your own flying and promotions. Your rights group wide, however are based date of joining.
The GOAL lists primary function for it's early years of operation is to protect what you have now. No QF pilot willl get a Jetstar Command before a current Jetstar pilot. No QF pilot will ever be senior to a current Jetstar pilot on the Jetstar list.
No Jetstar pilot will get a slot in mainline before a current mainline pilot. No Jetstar pilot will ever be senior to a current mainline pilot on the mainline list.
Same goes for Qantaslink.
After the date that the GOAL list is finalised, any new joiners can go anywhere their seniority allows, after their freeze/bond period is finished. It is then that you will have Jetstar pilots senior to QF pilots on the list and vice versa, but they will all be junior to current pilots.
The example is TN pilots who now all have seniority in mainline for 767 Commands and they are senior to any QF pilots who joined after them on the combined list. They got their 737 commands ahead of any QF pilots. If they hang around long enough they will get 787/-400/A380 commands. There are some now on the A330 because that is a new type and covered under the Integration Agreement.
Does that explain it for you?
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Kremin
So if Qantas allocated say 50 787's to Jetstar, and there were now enough pilots in Jetstar to provide all the left hand seat slots as at todays date (even if they were only A320 F/Os right now), do you mean that no Qantas pilot now or future could get to fly a Jetstar 787 in command until the current jetstar pilots retire?
So if Qantas allocated say 50 787's to Jetstar, and there were now enough pilots in Jetstar to provide all the left hand seat slots as at todays date (even if they were only A320 F/Os right now), do you mean that no Qantas pilot now or future could get to fly a Jetstar 787 in command until the current jetstar pilots retire?
Nunc est bibendum
Sherm, no. Not retire.
Let's say that QF agrees to GOAL with effect from 1 March 08. No current QF driver would get a look in at a J* command until all J* F/Os employed prior to 1 Mar 08 have had one of the three things occur:
a. Take the slot,
b. Be deemed not suitable for the slot by J* management, or
c. Knock the slot back.
After that it goes to the GOAL which would be datal seniority. Therefore a 15 year Dash driver trumps me (13 years QF). Next year the bloke or blokette who knocked the slot back or was found unsuitable would still have first bid on the aircraft ahead of others on the GOAL from outside J*.
There is no bogeyman in the GOAL concept. Same would apply if they decided to give the 787s to QFlink. All the current QFlink F/Os get to upgrade on it and then allocation after that is down to datal seniority from across the group. The 15 year Oxley/Impulse/J* driver trumps me for the gig. The 16 year QF driver trumps the 15 year Oxley/Impulse/J* driver, etc, etc.
The J* F/O who joins on 1 Apr 08- after the GOAL list is established- slots in behind all of the other players in the group. Therefore they'd be looking at upgrading to F/O on the 744 or perhaps another mainline type before they'd get a shot at command on J*. Again I think this is where the nay-sayers about AIPA and GOAL are coming into it. Any potential DEC doesn't want this to occur and so they're hammering hard at AIPA and QF mainline guys to prop up their own interests. Of course, you can argue that AIPA and QF mainline guys are also out to prop up their own interests but personally I'd prefer to look after those 3000+ QF group pilots who are currently IN the group before we worry too much about those who are yet to join. Note too that this is not about a 'b scale'- which I abhor- but it is all about choice! Ironic that J* markets itself as being all about choice whilst working overtime to prevent their crew from having it!
I hope that is making things clearer.
Let's say that QF agrees to GOAL with effect from 1 March 08. No current QF driver would get a look in at a J* command until all J* F/Os employed prior to 1 Mar 08 have had one of the three things occur:
a. Take the slot,
b. Be deemed not suitable for the slot by J* management, or
c. Knock the slot back.
After that it goes to the GOAL which would be datal seniority. Therefore a 15 year Dash driver trumps me (13 years QF). Next year the bloke or blokette who knocked the slot back or was found unsuitable would still have first bid on the aircraft ahead of others on the GOAL from outside J*.
There is no bogeyman in the GOAL concept. Same would apply if they decided to give the 787s to QFlink. All the current QFlink F/Os get to upgrade on it and then allocation after that is down to datal seniority from across the group. The 15 year Oxley/Impulse/J* driver trumps me for the gig. The 16 year QF driver trumps the 15 year Oxley/Impulse/J* driver, etc, etc.
The J* F/O who joins on 1 Apr 08- after the GOAL list is established- slots in behind all of the other players in the group. Therefore they'd be looking at upgrading to F/O on the 744 or perhaps another mainline type before they'd get a shot at command on J*. Again I think this is where the nay-sayers about AIPA and GOAL are coming into it. Any potential DEC doesn't want this to occur and so they're hammering hard at AIPA and QF mainline guys to prop up their own interests. Of course, you can argue that AIPA and QF mainline guys are also out to prop up their own interests but personally I'd prefer to look after those 3000+ QF group pilots who are currently IN the group before we worry too much about those who are yet to join. Note too that this is not about a 'b scale'- which I abhor- but it is all about choice! Ironic that J* markets itself as being all about choice whilst working overtime to prevent their crew from having it!
I hope that is making things clearer.
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Led as Keg and Kremin have said, its simple:
Wrong! He has access in a few years.
The Dash 8 Capt is behind all current QF pilots for sure, but if he wants a QF 737 F/O slot now he would have to resign, come across and then wait 3-4 years as S/O before getting to the 737 (as he would still be behind all current QF pilots). So the GOAL is a MUCH better proposition for someone in his position than the status quo.
Also, what about the flip side? (you conveniently left this bit out)
A 2 year F/O with Eastern has access to a Dash Command ahead of the 15 year F/O from QF - so no disadvantage for the Qlink guys there.
Got it now?
The 2 Year F/O with Jetstar has access to a JQ320, 330 or 787 command ahead of a 15 year F/O or 20 year Captain from QF as well. So the J* guys are not disadvantaged either.
See?
As for the argument about freezes, will someone get stuck somewhere? Yes, sometimes they will but only for 5 years or so.
But people are stuck to a much greater degree right now....
Are there regional guys that would like to fly a 737, A320, 744? Yes, but not unless they resign and go to the bottom of the list - I would call that stuck.
Are there QF S/Os & F/O's that would like to go up a rank and fly a Dash 8 or A320? Yes, but not unless they resign and go to the bottom of the list - I would call that stuck.
Are there Jetstar guys who would like to get a payrise and a better lifestyle in mainline? Yes, but not unless they resign and go to the bottom of the list - I would call that stuck.
These people are stuck, but they are stuck forever. With a GOAL waiting just 5 short years will give them a WORLD of choice.
So, led your questions have always been answered, care to answer a few that you have ignored for the last week from various posters?
Time to answer......
Today the Dash 8 captain who has 15 years of seniority at Eastern and wants to take up a first officer position with QAL in a B737, he has no chance.
A second officer at QAL with two years' seniority there has bidding rights ahead of the Eastern captain.
Also, what about the flip side? (you conveniently left this bit out)
A 2 year F/O with Eastern has access to a Dash Command ahead of the 15 year F/O from QF - so no disadvantage for the Qlink guys there.
Got it now?
The 2 Year F/O with Jetstar has access to a JQ320, 330 or 787 command ahead of a 15 year F/O or 20 year Captain from QF as well. So the J* guys are not disadvantaged either.
See?
As for the argument about freezes, will someone get stuck somewhere? Yes, sometimes they will but only for 5 years or so.
But people are stuck to a much greater degree right now....
Are there regional guys that would like to fly a 737, A320, 744? Yes, but not unless they resign and go to the bottom of the list - I would call that stuck.
Are there QF S/Os & F/O's that would like to go up a rank and fly a Dash 8 or A320? Yes, but not unless they resign and go to the bottom of the list - I would call that stuck.
Are there Jetstar guys who would like to get a payrise and a better lifestyle in mainline? Yes, but not unless they resign and go to the bottom of the list - I would call that stuck.
These people are stuck, but they are stuck forever. With a GOAL waiting just 5 short years will give them a WORLD of choice.
So, led your questions have always been answered, care to answer a few that you have ignored for the last week from various posters?
“What is this terrible history you have with AIPA that you speak of when it’s obvious from your previous posts that you have been at Jet* for a maximum of 13 months? (In your ‘previous post’ dated 21 Dec 2006 you discuss the lateness of your Emirates January 2007 roster.”
So what is the answer Led Zep? Have 2 groups bidding for flying by trying to undercut each other?
If you think that AIPA has the power to steal your precious planes, then wouldn't they just do it, why would they go to the huge expense in money and effort to get you on board just to shaft you later?
If AIPA is going to be a bad thing for Jetstar pilots, why is management on all sides fighting to ensure they are not involved?
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Sherm. All current Jetstar FO's would get a command slot, or at least the opportunity for a command slot before anyone else. Then the command slots (or FO slots) go to whoever has the datal seniority in the Qantas Group.
The current Jetstar pilots are always senior to any Qantas group pilots on the Jetstar list. It is exactly the way it worked with TN.
The current Jetstar pilots are always senior to any Qantas group pilots on the Jetstar list. It is exactly the way it worked with TN.
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I'm working towards my CPL and hopefully one day will get a job with an Australian airline. I get very disheartened when the likes of Led Zeppelin and Genex talk down the industry. From what I can see is that the Qantas pilots are trying to help the Jetstar ones but the Jetstar ones don't seem to want to improve their current position. When I see the petty crap that comes out on this forum, I feel that I really am wasting my money and should pursue another career because of what Jetstar and some of there pilots aspire to.
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ASG
Led and Genex aren't the only Jetstar pilots posting on this forum.
Many Qantas pilots do want to help Jetstar pilots, even if only because it will help them too. That is healthy.
Many Jetstar pilots want to be helped, even if it will also help Qantas pilots. That is also healthy.
If you really want to be a pilot in an Australian airline, there's a good chance that one day you'll join the Qantas group. If the Group Opportunity Allocations List becomes a reality, you won't get to choose which bit of the company you'll work for. You'll be assigned - maybe even to Jetstar.
My advice; Don't play favourites, listen before speaking and if you do have to speak, ensure what you say isn't petty crap either.
Led and Genex aren't the only Jetstar pilots posting on this forum.
Many Qantas pilots do want to help Jetstar pilots, even if only because it will help them too. That is healthy.
Many Jetstar pilots want to be helped, even if it will also help Qantas pilots. That is also healthy.
If you really want to be a pilot in an Australian airline, there's a good chance that one day you'll join the Qantas group. If the Group Opportunity Allocations List becomes a reality, you won't get to choose which bit of the company you'll work for. You'll be assigned - maybe even to Jetstar.
My advice; Don't play favourites, listen before speaking and if you do have to speak, ensure what you say isn't petty crap either.