Merged: Jetstar EBA 4

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Originally Posted by Dutchroll

I take it then, that you are implying that there is a plentiful supply of pilots everywhere. No shortage of recruits. No reduction in experience requirements to keep the flow up.

Sounds like great justification for the introduction of 457 Visa's for Pilots. Even the pilots are now arguing the case that management have been insisting in Canberra for their introduction!

Originally Posted by Standard

little to no regard on how much they were selling themselves short

People will choose what suits them. I still to this day find it surprising that people would argue against the right of people to accept jobs they are happy with - simply because they would not be happy with those arrangments.

You don't want to clean toilets for $12 an hour but that doesn't mean you should be telling those that do that they should not be accepting those conditions!

Individual Choice

[standard]

Pass, perhaps if you stopped investing your time in watching the wiggles, whether for enjoyment or education you might stop to realise what infact inflation is! In fact the couter measures of Inflation ie.. increased interest rates, taxes etc directly and adversly effect aviation, put simply inflation and its associated devices effects the disposable income we have to spend and as such, the controls of inflation directly effect how much we have to spend on the luxuries such as recreational travel.

Pilots wages, i believe are not an indicator, nor should be a measure of the economic situation. The basic models of economics are that of supply and demand.. and as such can dictate, where negotiated properly the value of a comodity ie.. our wages!. Yes it is basic business to get the same product(labour) at the cheapest price.. but at what risk?..

Statement like "united we bargain, divided we beg" are weak?, have a hard look at yourself if you honestly believe that... mate fill your boots and see how far you get by yourself... its as a group we acheive, its as teams we accomplish, in the meantime.. fly solo mate and enjoy yourself!!!

that you so clearly no little about.

, i think youll find that 'know' would be the appropriate spelling.

[standard]

You don't want to clean toilets for $12 an hour but that doesn't mean you should be telling those that do that they should not be accepting those conditions!

Individual Choice

Mate that is where you are wrong.. individually nothing is acheived!!!...

But in the meantime it couldnt hurt for you to suggest that youll clean the toilets on a turn around for $12.. the cabin crew probably get paid $13.. management will love you!! but hey its your choice!!!!.. just dont miss that spot behind the bowl!! and wash your hands!

[TurbTool]

I think you should chek your facts in Regards to the AWA's, and yes it is under the MOU that a mainline pilot must resign to accept a Command.

I do know my facts and it is FACT that some of the QF FOs that took A330 commands in J* accepted an AWA to get that command. To resign from QF to get a command in J* suggests to me that the conditions on offer were acceptable to that pilot. I don't understand why it is acceptable for a QF pilot to take a command on the A330 in Jetstar but not for Jetstar pilots to want that command. Remember they voted in the MOU as well, for GROUP solidarity. What did they get in return, in the short term?

My last point implies the fact that the JPC accepted the terms of the 330 to secure there own promotion with little to no regard on how much they were selling themselves short,

If they were selling themselves short can you explain why Qantas mainline pilots are falling over themselves to accept those positions on those terms and conditions.

then the majority have not taken the 330 positions because of how poor they infact are!! ..

I don't know where you get your info from but there is no shortage from within J* for A330 positions, with A320 Captains champing at the bit, as a result of delayed 787s.

but then i suppose that if you can go form 1900 driver to 320/330 driver in as little time as possible, after not being accepted to mainline.. then why not screw everyone in the process!!

Arrr. The old chestnut. Not accepted into mainline therefore NOT a real pilot. I think history has shown over and over that to be NOT accepted into mainline does NOT mean that a person is not a competent pilot or indeed better off for the experience. It may surprise you to find that some at J* were acceptable to Qantas but chose not to go there, after seeing the type of personality that they would be required to work with. You obviously don't know that many at mainline never went through the mainline selection process either. To suggest that a pilot who is "not good enough to join mainline" should actually pass up an opportunity to work in Australia because it "might disadvantage a pilot who is good enough to join mainline" is laughable in the extreme.

[fistfokker]

, i think youll find that 'know' would be the appropriate spelling.

Not that I am the spelling police, but does anyone else see the irony of Standard lecturing other people on the "standard" of their spelling, (see Standards's other posts) not to mention the appropriate use of capital letters and grammar.

[standard]

Point noted and accepted, thankyou.

[EPIRB]

TurbTool, all leave of absence applications, not only for Jetstar, were stopped by the company due to the fact that they couldn't afford to let anymore pilots go due to the expansion plans.
Also, would you QF/Jetstar pilots stop slagging each other off and work as one group to improve conditions? Is that too much to ask?

[I'm Driving]

Also Tool. Those pilots that took up the opportunity for a Jetstar A330 command, went under a flight standing order that allowed them to take a leave of absence for 3 years. They did not resign from Qantas, and once they are finished their 3 year commitment they will return to QF in whatever capacity their seniorty will achieve. They did not resign from QF so they could be A330 captains in Jetstar. The humorous thing is they would all have QF commands now if they had stayed, but when the opportunity presented itself, they didn't know that.

[toolish]

Posted by KM, a revote will get up because of the enemy within.
I also voted NO but will vote YES next because of the action of people like CC(assumption). A unified Qantas group is now highly unlikely because we cant even maintain a unified Jetstar group following the vote(awa being asked for hours after the vote finalised)



I am still of the opinion that the proposed EBA is crap. We should have been able to achieve so much more, with the proviso that the pilot group remained united. I voted NO, and believed that the will of the majority of the pilots would have been respected, I thought that I knew the consequences of a no vote. However, in light of recent events stemming from about 4 hours after the close of the vote I fail to see how a fractured pilot group can achieve any better. As one of the NO voters, I will change my vote if it means new pilots will be on EBA 4 with the majority of current pilots (I believe current AWA pilots will still be excluded). The events following the vote are farcical and tragic, a sad inditement of the divisions evident within the pilot body. The ONLY way forward is united, and if this is voted down again we know what will happen. This is not a threat from management, ironically it is our own brethren that has precipitated the split.

[genex]

The Qantas mainline pilots want the 787. Full stop. And they want it on their terms. Reminds me of a T-shirt my then teenage daughter had "I want it all and I want it on room service".

Unfortunately Qantas' competitors are laughing themselves stupid over the naivety of AIPA's stance and really hoping that AIPA gets to destroy Jetstar. Then you'll see the carnage.

Currently the 787 is predicted to be about 2-3000 lbs overweight with a SFC shortfall. Add AIPA demands to that and it'll barely make money even when full. No doubt however what it lacks in substance would be made up for in style.

The Heritage Airline days went. Maybe you didn't notice but they've just gone and the Group needs to be competitive.

And I don't know many JQ pilots but I sincerely hope none is dumb enough to fall for the "I'm from AIPA and I'm here to help you" BS.

[Going Boeing]

genex

Your posts are full of anti-mainline vitriol and you spruik Alan Joyce's words as if they are gospel. He is a manipulator of staff so that he can maximise his salary/bonus (he is not on a LCC CEO package). You sound like a "pawn" who is happy to deny your family a better lifestyle just to allow AJ to live like a king. The Jetstar pilots that I have spoken to, indicate that your views are definitely in the minority.

AIPA does not want to take over. Jetstar pilots would vote for their members (hopefully with bigger kohunas (& more independence from management) than the current JPC) who they want to handle the negotiations. They would enter into negotiations with all the industrial support and experience that has been built up over many years. The outcome will be much better for Jetstar pilots and does not involve mainline trying to take over.

[genex]

Now I am really confused. Somehow AIPA wants the JPA to get "bigger kohunas". As I understand it you mean "Kahuna", some sort of Hawaiian priest or magician. Such a person would no doubt bring more industrial expertise to the Qantas Group than AIPA can. So good point.

If on the other hand you meant "cojones" which is another thing all together and relates to testicular dimensions.....then AIPA would certainly be the wrong place to look. because while to Heritage Fleet Dinosaur pilots "balls" = " I hate Jetstar"......to most others balls are part of that wonderfully complex mechanism via which the human species ensures its own survival. I hardly think that AIPA's thus far non-stellar role in ensuring the Group's future matches that analogy. More like a condom really....play it real safe....ensure no regeneration...and end up discarded.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

The major reason I hardly frequent PPRUNE any more is because of dickheads like PAF and Genex who dribble **** out of their little gobs that they don't know anything about, or are too naive to know anything about what they profess to talk about anyway.
(PS. Signed up recently with AIPA and have been quite impressed with the expertise that they have to offer)

[genex]

Enema thingy....I am glad you're happy with AIPA. They do a good job looking after AIPA members. It's just that for decades, that's where it stops. For the rest and for the Group's future and Jetstar's robustness.....AIPA is as useful to growth, jobs and competitiveness as a bicycle is to a fish.

[speeeedy]

They do a good job looking after AIPA members. It's just that for decades, that's where it stops.

Well said genex, for once.

So Jetstar guys, you have heard it from genex (who I reckon has to be Jetstar management, read his posts you will agree), sign up to AIPA and you will be looked after.

The recent actions after the vote my those on and closely connected with the JPA should send a clear message to you all, most of the JPA guys are in the managements pocket.

[genex]

Oh dear, wrong on almost every count. And you should have read all my post.

The thing is, from any objective viewpoint, the Qantas Group has a big challenge ahead, with competition hotting up on all fronts. In what universe would Qantas NOT start up a LCC to compete. If the AIPA strategy is to increase the size of the Heritage Fleet and promise to pay all pilots much much more then I reiterate.....AIPA is as useful to the group's competitiveness as a bicycle is to a fish.

However in the task of destroying Jetstar and the short term gain of a few 787 jobs, AIPA might be very effective. Be the first time though.

[speeeedy]

genex you demonstrate a remarkable ability to totally misunderstand (probably deliberately) the AIPA viewpoint.

It has been clearly enunciated many times that this is not about Qantas mainline, this is about the Qantas Group - that includes Mainline LH & SH, Qlink AND Jetstar.

AIPA does not have the inclination to choose which airlines the group places resources in (they know they don't have that power), but they want to have unity so that one party can not be played off against another. It really is that simple.

This is what a group opportunity list is all about.

It also will solve the impending Pilot recruitment issues for Qlink and Jetstar because who wouldn't want a career where the long term choices are so varied? As far as the company is concerned, with the right limits in place the cost of training could actually be less!

Why don't they want it? It comes back to Unity, they don't want us to have it, it is so obvious, even you must see that, right?

Jetstar on legacy conditions.... No No No. Again you have no idea of what AIPA has said, they see a place for very different T&C's for a LCC, but forgive them if they think it should be 1st world LCC wages that they seek rather than 3rd world. Virgin and AO or there abouts is what had been stated by AIPA I believe.

As for mainline T&C's, I think there is realism there... In fact AIPA told the company at the beginning of EBA8 that "everything" was on the table to streamline the award. The companies response was that they didn't have the IT resources to do massive changes so best to tinker round the edges like they have done for years.

Any comments from management about the "convoluted" LH award should be taken with a grain of salt, given that they couldn't be stuffed to enter into meaningful discussions about fixing it.

If Jetstar guys choose AIPA to represent them then guess what? It will be a group of Jetstar guys that do the work, not dreaded mainline guys trying to steal their 787's. In fact it will be a lot like the JPA, but this time they'll be getting advice from AIPA rather than Oldmeadow, that has to be better does it not? (maybe you are Oldmeadow? it would make a lot of sense!).

[Gingerbread]

Everyone who reads Prune knows that it is a rumour network and rumours can be misleading but blatant deception is not acceptable

Take for example Mr Genex's posts above

The Qantas mainline pilots want the 787. Full stop. And they want it on their terms......Unfortunately Qantas' competitors are laughing themselves stupid over the naivety of AIPA's stance and really hoping that AIPA gets to destroy Jetstar.

Obviously Mr Genex doesn't know, and sounds like he would prefer if Ppruners didn't know either, that AIPA is very supportive of a Group Opportunity List (GOAL) which would like all Qantas group pilots.

According to those I speak to on AIPA’s committee, while career progress would be in accordance with the GOAL, those who choose to fly for Qantas are on mainline T's & C's, those who choose to fly for Jetstar are on Jetstar T's & C's and Qantaslink has its own T's & Cs.

The BS like AIPA's wants to destroy Jetstar by destroying the LCC concept is just that - BS.

Jetstar crews wanting to find out what the real story is need to get along to one of the Open Forums AIPA is hosting in:
-Brisbane at the Riverview Hotel at 2pm on the 25/02/08,
-Adelaide at the Hilton Hotel at 2pm on the 26/02/08,
-Melbourne at the Airport Hilton Hotel at 2pm on the 27/02/08 and
-Sydney at AIPA conference room (Level 6, 247 Coward St Mascot) at 2pm on the 29/02/08.

In the meantime Mr Genex should tell us all how he thinks Jetstar is going to get the experienced pilots its needs to grow the business if Jetstar can’t get access to mainlines 10 yr+ F/O’s?

[Mr. Boeing]

And while we're at it, maybe Genex could reveal his source that he gets this comment from

Unfortunately Qantas' competitors are laughing themselves stupid over the naivety of AIPA's stance and really hoping that AIPA gets to destroy Jetstar.

and also exactly what

Add AIPA demands to that and it'll barely make money even when full.

AIPA's demands are?

[Mr. Hat]

Could some one in th know summarise what the voted down agreement involved.

Is it true there will be a b scale for new hires?