Merged: Jetstar EBA 4
Grandpa Aerotart
It is a complete waste of time trying to discuss issues like this because the vast majority of posters seem caught up in some sort of trench mentality where they are incapable of seeing the woods for the trees.
Many of you need to look up 'negotiation' and 'in good faith' in a dictionary.
J* management brought forward the EBA because they probably thought, like we all do, that experienced pilots are getting a little thin on the ground.
They and the JPC have tried to come up with a package that would retain current pilots and attract those they need to crew planned expansion. There is not a manager worth the title who is going to pay 1 cent more than he needs to...AIPA/AFAP or JPC can suggest anything they like and if management doesn't think it reasonable they say NO...you can sit there and turn red in the face and it will achieve precisely nothing except make you look silly...even if you're right.
I have yet to see anything that hints either AIPA or AFAP have suggested the actual money on offer was not a pretty reasonable outcome.
Had EBA 4 been voted up a few weeks ago what would have been the result?
I think it likely all pilots, including those employed currently on an AWA, would have been offered employment on EBA 4. Most pilots in the company would have realised a substantial payrise...certainly those the company wants to retain...Captains for the most part.
Remember no one is actually leaving J*...certainly not captains. If a bunch of FOs head off to the sandpit so what? Believe it or not there are enough youngsters out there who are prepared to salary sacrifice an A320 type rating for the T&Cs currently on offer.
There actually wouldn't be THAT many current FOs at J* who qualify for an asian/sandpit airline...the longest serving J* FO has been in what, 15 months? Given current expansion plans every single current FO will be a captain within 2 years if they meet the standards. In my view any current FO who is stupid enough to (even want to) jump ship and head off at this point in time should be viewed as mentally defective and waved off with a sigh of relief.
So should J* be worried if say 10 or even 20 FOs resigned for 'better' T*Cs somewhere else...I actually don't think so given I know of 10 experienced guys who would replace them near instantly...much more experienced than those FOs who might leave...guys with YEARS more experience on A320s than any current J* FO...and less than 2 years to command!
Should the company be worried about 10 or 20 captains leaving...yes most certainly...although to date they have lost how many?
One figure I heard was...One.
If EBA 4 did not achieve their twin goals of attract and retain those they want to attract and retain what would have happened next?
Well if you honestly believe J* would not have come back to the JPC and the unified pilot group and opened up further negotiation in good faith to achieve those twin goals then I am sorry but you're an idiot.
It might even happen that in the fullness of time IF this pilot shortage is as deep as we all hope and IF the regional economies hold up that J* pilots unified under EBA 4.3 might be on substantially better T&Cs than EBA 4 provides...but an attitude of "We want it now, stick it up those bastards" will NOT achieve that outcome...all that would achieve is management convinced they have retards flying their aircraft.
Compare CX and KA given what I have said above...insignificant (but possibly increasing) numbers leaving CX and they get a 'desultory' 3% payrise that doesn't come close to keeping up with inflation. Pilots leaving KA in DROVES and they get a 20% payrise...which may or may not be enough to achieve KA's goal of retaining and attracting pilots...in fact at present it actually doesn't look like it will be enough.
Does anyone think the CX 'A' scale came into existence because Swire Group was staffed by managers who loved throwing money at pilots? The 'A' scale was simply what it took at the time to attract and retain pilots in HK...I personally think we will see an A scale offered again in parts of asia.
The airline where I work had few pilots leave for many years...because the overall package was pretty damn good...then in the last few years that has changed substantially due currency exchange rate fluctuations (not the companies fault but certainly their problem) and other factors so we got a payrise...and we're now experiencing the beginnings of a further exodus...probably captains and probably big enough to make the last look like a non event (some coming home to Oz)...and as it unfolds I have no doubt we'll get another pay rise. If not they will be parking jets...very soon.
Now had they raised our pay by twice or three times what we got a year or so back we all would have been thrilled to bits but it just does not work that way...any manager seriously suggesting it would find their employment status changing rapidly.
You need to stick your head above the parapet sometimes and take an unemotional look around...having surveyed your surroundings you need to come up with a reasoned, adult response to what you see.
I don't think the recent NO vote qualified.
Many of you need to look up 'negotiation' and 'in good faith' in a dictionary.
J* management brought forward the EBA because they probably thought, like we all do, that experienced pilots are getting a little thin on the ground.
They and the JPC have tried to come up with a package that would retain current pilots and attract those they need to crew planned expansion. There is not a manager worth the title who is going to pay 1 cent more than he needs to...AIPA/AFAP or JPC can suggest anything they like and if management doesn't think it reasonable they say NO...you can sit there and turn red in the face and it will achieve precisely nothing except make you look silly...even if you're right.
I have yet to see anything that hints either AIPA or AFAP have suggested the actual money on offer was not a pretty reasonable outcome.
Had EBA 4 been voted up a few weeks ago what would have been the result?
I think it likely all pilots, including those employed currently on an AWA, would have been offered employment on EBA 4. Most pilots in the company would have realised a substantial payrise...certainly those the company wants to retain...Captains for the most part.
Remember no one is actually leaving J*...certainly not captains. If a bunch of FOs head off to the sandpit so what? Believe it or not there are enough youngsters out there who are prepared to salary sacrifice an A320 type rating for the T&Cs currently on offer.
There actually wouldn't be THAT many current FOs at J* who qualify for an asian/sandpit airline...the longest serving J* FO has been in what, 15 months? Given current expansion plans every single current FO will be a captain within 2 years if they meet the standards. In my view any current FO who is stupid enough to (even want to) jump ship and head off at this point in time should be viewed as mentally defective and waved off with a sigh of relief.
So should J* be worried if say 10 or even 20 FOs resigned for 'better' T*Cs somewhere else...I actually don't think so given I know of 10 experienced guys who would replace them near instantly...much more experienced than those FOs who might leave...guys with YEARS more experience on A320s than any current J* FO...and less than 2 years to command!
Should the company be worried about 10 or 20 captains leaving...yes most certainly...although to date they have lost how many?
One figure I heard was...One.
If EBA 4 did not achieve their twin goals of attract and retain those they want to attract and retain what would have happened next?
Well if you honestly believe J* would not have come back to the JPC and the unified pilot group and opened up further negotiation in good faith to achieve those twin goals then I am sorry but you're an idiot.
It might even happen that in the fullness of time IF this pilot shortage is as deep as we all hope and IF the regional economies hold up that J* pilots unified under EBA 4.3 might be on substantially better T&Cs than EBA 4 provides...but an attitude of "We want it now, stick it up those bastards" will NOT achieve that outcome...all that would achieve is management convinced they have retards flying their aircraft.
Compare CX and KA given what I have said above...insignificant (but possibly increasing) numbers leaving CX and they get a 'desultory' 3% payrise that doesn't come close to keeping up with inflation. Pilots leaving KA in DROVES and they get a 20% payrise...which may or may not be enough to achieve KA's goal of retaining and attracting pilots...in fact at present it actually doesn't look like it will be enough.
Does anyone think the CX 'A' scale came into existence because Swire Group was staffed by managers who loved throwing money at pilots? The 'A' scale was simply what it took at the time to attract and retain pilots in HK...I personally think we will see an A scale offered again in parts of asia.
The airline where I work had few pilots leave for many years...because the overall package was pretty damn good...then in the last few years that has changed substantially due currency exchange rate fluctuations (not the companies fault but certainly their problem) and other factors so we got a payrise...and we're now experiencing the beginnings of a further exodus...probably captains and probably big enough to make the last look like a non event (some coming home to Oz)...and as it unfolds I have no doubt we'll get another pay rise. If not they will be parking jets...very soon.
Now had they raised our pay by twice or three times what we got a year or so back we all would have been thrilled to bits but it just does not work that way...any manager seriously suggesting it would find their employment status changing rapidly.
You need to stick your head above the parapet sometimes and take an unemotional look around...having surveyed your surroundings you need to come up with a reasoned, adult response to what you see.
I don't think the recent NO vote qualified.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 16th Feb 2008 at 17:32.
Thread Starter
It amuses me how so many people who don't work for Jetstar (or the Qantas Group) seem to be the most vocal regarding our EBA. People should maybe look after their own back yards, before worrying about ours.
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The problem with that champ, is that the terms and conditions that you guys agree to are then used as a benchmark for all other players in the industry to negotiate against.
People are just trying to save you from yourselves at times. The first deal got you the jobs at the cheapest price. Now you have the jobs, why do you continue to do **** deals way below industry average?
That's why people take an interest, because what you do, whether you like it or not, DIRECTLY affects others outside of your little circle.
People are just trying to save you from yourselves at times. The first deal got you the jobs at the cheapest price. Now you have the jobs, why do you continue to do **** deals way below industry average?
That's why people take an interest, because what you do, whether you like it or not, DIRECTLY affects others outside of your little circle.
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Chimp, further to your statement that, "I have yet to see anything that hints either AIPA or AFAP have suggested the actual money on offer was not a pretty reasonable outcome."
I recall reading somewhere a while back that when questioned by Qantas and AFAP lawyers in the course of the AIRC hearing to allow AIPA to constitutionally cover all Qantas group pilots, that AIPA's El Presidentie said something like:
Jetstar Domestic should enjoy Virgin Blue wages (which are now roughly 15% below Qantas short-haul wages), and
Jetstar International should enjoy Australian Airlines wages which was set up on the basis of being 15% more cost effective than Qantas International.
Had Jetstar pilots voted up EBA 4, it looks as if the A320 pilots would be close to on par with Virgin B737 pilots but Jetstar A330 pilots would still be more than 15% behind what Qantas pays its A330 pilots.
Over the years I have had quite a few conversations with AIPA's El Presidentie and that the man's strategic thinking is light years ahead of most pilots and Qantas management, is why he is sometimes misunderstood and referred to as the nutty professor. If anyone can save the Qantas group from itself, he can. Provided the wets on his committee stop trying to tie his shoelaces.
Best thing Qantas group pilots can do is join AIPA and support his push for a master seniority list.
I recall reading somewhere a while back that when questioned by Qantas and AFAP lawyers in the course of the AIRC hearing to allow AIPA to constitutionally cover all Qantas group pilots, that AIPA's El Presidentie said something like:
Jetstar Domestic should enjoy Virgin Blue wages (which are now roughly 15% below Qantas short-haul wages), and
Jetstar International should enjoy Australian Airlines wages which was set up on the basis of being 15% more cost effective than Qantas International.
Had Jetstar pilots voted up EBA 4, it looks as if the A320 pilots would be close to on par with Virgin B737 pilots but Jetstar A330 pilots would still be more than 15% behind what Qantas pays its A330 pilots.
Over the years I have had quite a few conversations with AIPA's El Presidentie and that the man's strategic thinking is light years ahead of most pilots and Qantas management, is why he is sometimes misunderstood and referred to as the nutty professor. If anyone can save the Qantas group from itself, he can. Provided the wets on his committee stop trying to tie his shoelaces.
Best thing Qantas group pilots can do is join AIPA and support his push for a master seniority list.
Last edited by Gingerbread; 17th Feb 2008 at 01:07.
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"Pilots leaving KA in DROVES and they get a 20% payrise...which may or may not be enough to achieve KA's goal of retaining and attracting pilots...in fact at present it actually doesn't look like it will be enough."
Which just goes to show that despite what pilots verbalize in the security of crew room group think, money is NOT the key criteria for job selection. KA is a high paying position, but people are leaving because its a boring job in a crap part of the world with no future.
More people have left KA for JQ than vice versa.
Which just goes to show that despite what pilots verbalize in the security of crew room group think, money is NOT the key criteria for job selection. KA is a high paying position, but people are leaving because its a boring job in a crap part of the world with no future.
More people have left KA for JQ than vice versa.
"Julia Gillard will be unlikely to approve the use of 457 visas".
They aready have
They aready have
Yes I am aware that: "a company representative stated that Qantaslink already had a number of 457 visas approved for foreign pilots."
And AIPA checked with the offices of the Ministers of Immigration and Transport and was informed by the respective Ministerial staffers that; "to the best of their knowledge, incoming Labor Ministers had not recommended or approved any new 457 Visas for foreign pilots."
As I understand it, ALP policy requires applicants for 457 Visas to satisfactorily demonstrate that the issue of requested 457 Visas would not drive down Australian wages and/or allow the corporate applicant to avoid the expense of training Australian employees and I believe Qantas has yet to do this?
Nonetheless, until AIPA actually sits down sometime in March with the Ministers of Immigration and Transport to discuss what AIPA believes Qantas needs to do before the Government approves any 457 Visas for pilots, one can never be absolutely certain what is on the drawing boards.
And AIPA checked with the offices of the Ministers of Immigration and Transport and was informed by the respective Ministerial staffers that; "to the best of their knowledge, incoming Labor Ministers had not recommended or approved any new 457 Visas for foreign pilots."
As I understand it, ALP policy requires applicants for 457 Visas to satisfactorily demonstrate that the issue of requested 457 Visas would not drive down Australian wages and/or allow the corporate applicant to avoid the expense of training Australian employees and I believe Qantas has yet to do this?
Nonetheless, until AIPA actually sits down sometime in March with the Ministers of Immigration and Transport to discuss what AIPA believes Qantas needs to do before the Government approves any 457 Visas for pilots, one can never be absolutely certain what is on the drawing boards.
The above is but one example why representation / membership of an organisation like AIPA is paramount in workplace negotiations.
JPC - take up the offer of partnership with AIPA to enhance your information base and tools for negotiatioins.
You still get to decide you're own future - only better prepared
Last edited by CaptCloudbuster; 17th Feb 2008 at 02:02.
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A number are now quite experienced fos with no prospect of a B737 Command in their base for some time. Others just would like a choice of somewhere to live other than the big 3, SYD, BNE or MEL. Some like the idea of progressing to widebody international ops.
You are kidding if you think there would be a stampede!
Captain Cloudbuster
True, hence the DEC campaign in South Africa (15 currently employed and undergoing various short courses prior to line training --CRM, Security, EP’s)
True, and the proposed conditions under EBA 4 are also substandard.
This is where you are wrong, J* management do not need this EBA to succeed to continue to attract DEC’s. Management will continue to attract all the DEC’s they require through AWA’s on BETTER conditions than the current EBA. Remember, he changes to the workchoices legislation will still allow AWA’s for high income earners (>$100,000)
I am still of the opinion that the proposed EBA is crap. We should have been able to achieve so much more, with the proviso that the pilot group remained united. I voted NO, and believed that the will of the majority of the pilots would have been respected, I thought that I knew the consequences of a no vote. However, in light of recent events stemming from about 4 hours after the close of the vote I fail to see how a fractured pilot group can achieve any better. As one of the NO voters, I will change my vote if it means new pilots will be on EBA 4 with the majority of current pilots (I believe current AWA pilots will still be excluded). The events following the vote are farcical and tragic, a sad inditement of the divisions evident within the pilot body. The ONLY way forward is united, and if this is voted down again we know what will happen. This is not a threat from management, ironically it is our own brethren that has precipitated the split.
Here's my best guess Chimbu
There is a shortage of qualified FO's available for immediate upgrade within J*'s own ranks to fill the planned expansion.
There is a shortage of qualified FO's available for immediate upgrade within J*'s own ranks to fill the planned expansion.
The current terms and conditions of employment are substandard.
These facts combined ensure - J* management need this EBA to get up yesterday to attract direct entry captains
Julia Gillard will be unlikely to approve the use of 457 visas.
If we act together
If we act together
Why the lies.
The only people employed by J* meet Australian residency requirements. No 457 visas for pilots in Oz yet! The threat of 457 visas is an empty threat by a worried management, who are soon to lose control of the IR system and the future IR agenda. The close relationship between AIPA and the unions/ALP, derided by some AIPA members prior to the last Federal Election, is about to bear fruit.
The only people employed by J* meet Australian residency requirements. No 457 visas for pilots in Oz yet! The threat of 457 visas is an empty threat by a worried management, who are soon to lose control of the IR system and the future IR agenda. The close relationship between AIPA and the unions/ALP, derided by some AIPA members prior to the last Federal Election, is about to bear fruit.
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457's for pilots should be approved - and I've no doubt the government will approve them in the next 12 months. If not then the government is not serious about trying to restrict inflation. Obviously current pilots' like ourselves will not reap the rewards of a severe shortage if this happens.
It's interesting to note though that Wayne Swan has been doing what Nobel Prize Winning Economist Milton Friedman warned against in terms of anchoring inflationary expectations. He's done more damage in a few months than anyone in Australia could do over the course of a year. He's talked up inflation and as a result made it a self fulfilling prophecy.
But hey, what would a Nobel Prize Winning economist know right?
It's interesting to note though that Wayne Swan has been doing what Nobel Prize Winning Economist Milton Friedman warned against in terms of anchoring inflationary expectations. He's done more damage in a few months than anyone in Australia could do over the course of a year. He's talked up inflation and as a result made it a self fulfilling prophecy.
But hey, what would a Nobel Prize Winning economist know right?
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Maybe we could all pause to consider how the willingness of Aussie pilots to flood overseas in large numbers to all areas of the globe have held down opportunities for locals in those countries.
The airlines concerned would have been forced to train locals, pay better, provide better working conditions etc.
Why is it that Australian pilots should be protected from the globalisation of the industry while the rest of the world is not?
The airlines concerned would have been forced to train locals, pay better, provide better working conditions etc.
Why is it that Australian pilots should be protected from the globalisation of the industry while the rest of the world is not?
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457's for pilots should be approved - and I've no doubt the government will approve them in the next 12 months. If not then the government is not serious about trying to restrict inflation
457s should not be allowed for the simple reason that they are a tool to sourse offshore Labour in the event that there is not adequate labour provisions in the Australian Economy.. This is clearly not the case!!!
There are plenty of qualified pilots to fill any Jet* seats it is just the fact that management want to crew these flights as cheap as possible, and are happy to risk safety (by utilising less qualified, perhaps inadequatly trained/ experienced pilots) to do so!!!!
The threat of 457 visas is an empty threat by a worried management,
United we Bargain.. Divided we beg!! As a group of Australian pilots we really need to realise just how strong our position as a group is.. there is a global shortage.. FACT! but stabbing each other in the back will acheive nothing! working together and preasuring management (of all Australian Airlines will acheive results).. its happening overseas.. it CAN happen hear to secure Australian Jobs with the suitable and respectable remuniration and conditions that we all deserve.
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Mate, Im sure there are plently of Guys in Mainline that would like those oppurtunities too, right before they were sold out by the JPC, who agreed to an absoloutly sh*thouse deal, particularly to secure the International flying.. So crap infact the deal that they dont even want to work to the agreement!!!
There are more than enough willing to jump from mainline to Jetstar to take up opportunities. So many in fact that Qantas stopped honouring the MOU. Some even took employment under AWAs to do it. Some have resigned from Qantas to go to J* for those opportunities.
I am not implying there is anything wrong with that, just fact.
I don't understand the last point in your comment, but If they don't want to work to the agreement then they should do something about it, or leave. It is that simple. It is a fact that pilots are not leaving J*, so maybe the deal is not cr@p.
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Some even took employment under AWAs to do it. Some have resigned from Qantas to go to J* for those opportunities.
My last point implies the fact that the JPC accepted the terms of the 330 to secure there own promotion with little to no regard on how much they were selling themselves short, then the majority have not taken the 330 positions because of how poor they infact are!! .. but then i suppose that if you can go form 1900 driver to 320/330 driver in as little time as possible, after not being accepted to mainline.. then why not screw everyone in the process!!
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HIGH-income earners should take the lead in the fight against inflation, Deputy Prime Minister Julia Gillard says.
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd announced this week that federal MPs would take a pay freeze this year in an effort to fight inflation.
The Government has called on big business to follow suit and apply a pay freeze on the income of executives.
Ms Gillard said everybody in the community needs to work together with the Government to try to defeat inflation.
She said high-income earners were in the best position to take the lead and show restraint.
"Part of what happened this week was politicians saying to the community we get it, we understand it, that there's a need for restraint and we are prepared to show that restraint ourselves through a wages freeze,'' Ms Gillard told ABC Television.
"What we are saying to working families is that inflation is an enemy for them.
"It is people at the upper income end who can most easily show restraint and one of the reasons that the Prime Minister decided this week on the wages freeze is politicians are in that category
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd announced this week that federal MPs would take a pay freeze this year in an effort to fight inflation.
The Government has called on big business to follow suit and apply a pay freeze on the income of executives.
Ms Gillard said everybody in the community needs to work together with the Government to try to defeat inflation.
She said high-income earners were in the best position to take the lead and show restraint.
"Part of what happened this week was politicians saying to the community we get it, we understand it, that there's a need for restraint and we are prepared to show that restraint ourselves through a wages freeze,'' Ms Gillard told ABC Television.
"What we are saying to working families is that inflation is an enemy for them.
"It is people at the upper income end who can most easily show restraint and one of the reasons that the Prime Minister decided this week on the wages freeze is politicians are in that category
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e you serious?.. if you think that the pilot shortage.. or for that matter anything to do with Aviation is a dictator of Inflation and could be a measuring tool for inflation you are kidding yourself!!!
That's why the price of oil (and it's refined products) has had no effect overall on the economy. What is this? "The Wiggles" school of economics?
United we Bargain.. Divided we beg!
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Standard, you sound like one angry aggrieved person. Maybe you feel you have good reason.
It is hard to reconcile "working together", "united we bargain" etc with accusing the elected representatives of J* pilots with "backstabbing "to secure their own position".
Naturally management wants to employ pilots as cheaply as possible, just as pilots want to be paid as much as possible. Why would you think management would want to risk safety? Their jobs depend on safety as well.
All pilots have been "less experienced/qualified" at some time in their career. There is no evidence that J* employs "inadaquately trained/experienced pilots" as you suggest.
I would like to suggest you take a deep breath, look at yourself in a clear light and chill out a little. Think about how to contribute something positive and constructive to the future instead of belittling the efforts of others, that you so clearly no little about.
It is hard to reconcile "working together", "united we bargain" etc with accusing the elected representatives of J* pilots with "backstabbing "to secure their own position".
There are plenty of qualified pilots to fill any Jet* seats it is just the fact that management want to crew these flights as cheap as possible, and are happy to risk safety (by utilising less qualified, perhaps inadequatly trained/ experienced pilots) to do so!!!!
All pilots have been "less experienced/qualified" at some time in their career. There is no evidence that J* employs "inadaquately trained/experienced pilots" as you suggest.
I would like to suggest you take a deep breath, look at yourself in a clear light and chill out a little. Think about how to contribute something positive and constructive to the future instead of belittling the efforts of others, that you so clearly no little about.