Merged: Jetstar EBA 4
Quote:
"Just remember folks....you might think your job sucks and it does not pay that well.............."But it beats boning Chickens for a living"
And just what qualifications does it take to bone a chook Jabba?
Well done guys. In the current environment all professional pilots are worth more. For too many years people have undersold themselves. That is why there is a shortage today. Airline managements know this, and they are hoping to Chr!st that not too many wake up to it. Errr...., too late I think!
And the "threat" of DEC's. They'll have to pay a lot more than what they are offering for that one to work.
Catch 22.
"Just remember folks....you might think your job sucks and it does not pay that well.............."But it beats boning Chickens for a living"
And just what qualifications does it take to bone a chook Jabba?
Well done guys. In the current environment all professional pilots are worth more. For too many years people have undersold themselves. That is why there is a shortage today. Airline managements know this, and they are hoping to Chr!st that not too many wake up to it. Errr...., too late I think!
And the "threat" of DEC's. They'll have to pay a lot more than what they are offering for that one to work.
Catch 22.
Grandpa Aerotart
Capt Kremin perhaps genex was referring to DECs from outside the QF group?
AJ made it very clear recently that if the EBA got up he would not hire DECs/DEFOs on individual contracts with T&Cs equal to or better than the failed EBA. He made it equally clear that a NO vote would release him from that promise and he would do whatever it took to make J* a success. That being the case, and taking him at his word, I would respectfully suggest that any pilot walking in and offering to sign an individual contract on the failed EBA T&Cs will receive a positive hearing...as would any prospective employee being currently interviewed...and the result will be the further fragmentation of the pilot group. A Yes vote would have meant all pilots currently on AWAs being offered an EBA and thus the unification of the current J* pilot group.
Flava Sava given the nature of this BB just who and how many ridiculed J* pilots for voting the previous EBA up?
The answer is a small % of young, angry QF pilots who saw their careers being effected without thinking about the protection of mainline T&Cs which J*'s existence provides via it's exclusion of VB/Tiger/Lion/whomever from that % of the domestic market that J* holds. And an even smaller % of vocal, angry GA pilots who perceive that their career path is adversely effected by J*'s mere existence on lower T&Cs than mainline without even considering the extra opportunities that J*'s existence provides and as a competitive entity against VB etc which has tended to raise domestic T&Cs in the last years, QF Domestic T*Cs (which are an '89 aberration) not withstanding.
The J*PG has taken T&Cs from 90K as a 717 captain in the Impulse days to, if this EBA had got up, 210-220K for an A320 Captain as well as numerous work rules that protect pilots from less than enlightened management...and all without AFAPs help (despite their pleading the contrary on another thread).
If the No voters think AIPA/AFAP will be called in tomorrow and negotiations reinstated with a newly cowed QF/J* management you're sadly mistaken...and naive in the extreme.
I would not be at all surprised to see AIPA go quiet now....how long has the QF domestic EBA wrangling been going on since their EBA ran out...2 years?
What about the efforts at Eastern (or is it Sunnies)...18 months since their EBA expired?
You expect more effort for an entity that is perceived to directly attack mainline T&Cs?
Your dreaming.
The no voters seem to think this will light a fire under AIPA/AFAP but when they fail to meet the expectations, and I think it will be 'when' not 'if', of the No voters you watch the anguished cries on this website...not to mention the anger of the Yes voters who have been denied.
The fallout from this vote, in my view, will be far reaching in ways many No voters least expected.
This expectation of all pilots under one union is naive too...the respective office holders at AIPA and AFAP are not going to release the reins that easily and risk their respective companies T*Cs to those who may have little or no vested interest.
QF will never allow a true group opportunity list...and short of strike action by all QF group pilots there is no way to force them to do so....they will just say no.
Chances of a general strike of QF group pilots?
Zero.
If they were serious about pilot unity they would have been offering the J*PG encouragement and 'no strings attached' help from day one, 6 mths ago, instead of riding in at the 11th hour and advocating a No vote to what was a reasonable package in economically uncertain times. They would have been supporting the J*PG as fellow professionals trying to negotiate the best deal possible for their members while acknowledging the unique circumstances of J* rather than behaving as they have been.
AJ made it very clear recently that if the EBA got up he would not hire DECs/DEFOs on individual contracts with T&Cs equal to or better than the failed EBA. He made it equally clear that a NO vote would release him from that promise and he would do whatever it took to make J* a success. That being the case, and taking him at his word, I would respectfully suggest that any pilot walking in and offering to sign an individual contract on the failed EBA T&Cs will receive a positive hearing...as would any prospective employee being currently interviewed...and the result will be the further fragmentation of the pilot group. A Yes vote would have meant all pilots currently on AWAs being offered an EBA and thus the unification of the current J* pilot group.
Flava Sava given the nature of this BB just who and how many ridiculed J* pilots for voting the previous EBA up?
The answer is a small % of young, angry QF pilots who saw their careers being effected without thinking about the protection of mainline T&Cs which J*'s existence provides via it's exclusion of VB/Tiger/Lion/whomever from that % of the domestic market that J* holds. And an even smaller % of vocal, angry GA pilots who perceive that their career path is adversely effected by J*'s mere existence on lower T&Cs than mainline without even considering the extra opportunities that J*'s existence provides and as a competitive entity against VB etc which has tended to raise domestic T&Cs in the last years, QF Domestic T*Cs (which are an '89 aberration) not withstanding.
The J*PG has taken T&Cs from 90K as a 717 captain in the Impulse days to, if this EBA had got up, 210-220K for an A320 Captain as well as numerous work rules that protect pilots from less than enlightened management...and all without AFAPs help (despite their pleading the contrary on another thread).
If the No voters think AIPA/AFAP will be called in tomorrow and negotiations reinstated with a newly cowed QF/J* management you're sadly mistaken...and naive in the extreme.
I would not be at all surprised to see AIPA go quiet now....how long has the QF domestic EBA wrangling been going on since their EBA ran out...2 years?
What about the efforts at Eastern (or is it Sunnies)...18 months since their EBA expired?
You expect more effort for an entity that is perceived to directly attack mainline T&Cs?
Your dreaming.
The no voters seem to think this will light a fire under AIPA/AFAP but when they fail to meet the expectations, and I think it will be 'when' not 'if', of the No voters you watch the anguished cries on this website...not to mention the anger of the Yes voters who have been denied.
The fallout from this vote, in my view, will be far reaching in ways many No voters least expected.
This expectation of all pilots under one union is naive too...the respective office holders at AIPA and AFAP are not going to release the reins that easily and risk their respective companies T*Cs to those who may have little or no vested interest.
QF will never allow a true group opportunity list...and short of strike action by all QF group pilots there is no way to force them to do so....they will just say no.
Chances of a general strike of QF group pilots?
Zero.
If they were serious about pilot unity they would have been offering the J*PG encouragement and 'no strings attached' help from day one, 6 mths ago, instead of riding in at the 11th hour and advocating a No vote to what was a reasonable package in economically uncertain times. They would have been supporting the J*PG as fellow professionals trying to negotiate the best deal possible for their members while acknowledging the unique circumstances of J* rather than behaving as they have been.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 31st Jan 2008 at 09:16.
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Well, democracy has had its say and only time will tell. I think with about 90% actually casting a vote that it is a very good vote rate.
The J* CEO has stated that the Company accepts the verdict and will commence discussions for a new agreement "in good faith" when the current agreement expires. The current agreement requires discussions to commence 3 months prior to expiry so I would guess about July would be the earliest to test the water.
I do think that we missed a big opportunity to get rid of AWAs or Individual Agreements without having to rely on the Labour Government (I can't help remembering who presided over the offerring of Individual Agreements to pilots in the first place) however here's waiting to see what they deliver.
I hope the AIPA and the AFAP can work together for the good of all pilots in Australia before too long.
The J* CEO has stated that the Company accepts the verdict and will commence discussions for a new agreement "in good faith" when the current agreement expires. The current agreement requires discussions to commence 3 months prior to expiry so I would guess about July would be the earliest to test the water.
I do think that we missed a big opportunity to get rid of AWAs or Individual Agreements without having to rely on the Labour Government (I can't help remembering who presided over the offerring of Individual Agreements to pilots in the first place) however here's waiting to see what they deliver.
I hope the AIPA and the AFAP can work together for the good of all pilots in Australia before too long.
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I voted yes.
I wanted some protection against direct entry guys coming in on better conditions, from a possible economic downturn and to better my pay as a 2nd class citizen...oh, sorry, I mean Cruise FO.
I don't trust the unions. The AFAP only published letters, etc because AIPA got into a position to represent us.
Both groups never made a DEMAND to be included in the negotiation process.
If they had, and had been rejected, this would have been conveyed to members and action taken.
Instead, we see a grab for ca$h from both, each trying to appear more eager than the next to represent us.
How many members would AFAP have without their Loss of Licence insurance? Not many I suggest... this seems to be the main driver of it's members. I am aware AIPA doesn't have a similar scheme.
Anyway.
I wanted some protection against direct entry guys coming in on better conditions, from a possible economic downturn and to better my pay as a 2nd class citizen...oh, sorry, I mean Cruise FO.
I don't trust the unions. The AFAP only published letters, etc because AIPA got into a position to represent us.
Both groups never made a DEMAND to be included in the negotiation process.
If they had, and had been rejected, this would have been conveyed to members and action taken.
Instead, we see a grab for ca$h from both, each trying to appear more eager than the next to represent us.
How many members would AFAP have without their Loss of Licence insurance? Not many I suggest... this seems to be the main driver of it's members. I am aware AIPA doesn't have a similar scheme.
Anyway.
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Krusty,
Its got nothing to do with skills and training......boning chickens or whatever. Its commercial reality.
Let me ask you a couple of questions and answer honestly to yourself.
Brain Surgeon V YOU as a pilot.
Which is far more important to society?
Which gets paid more?
Why?
My answers.....
the pilot is far more critical to the bulk of society than a Brain Surgeon
The brain surgeon
Leverage at the point of sale!!
Personally I think most pilots (not all, some are on such a good deal already) deserve a little more, but its commercial reality that matters or there are lots of unemployed pilots and just a handful of slightly higher paid ones.
Cheers
J
Its got nothing to do with skills and training......boning chickens or whatever. Its commercial reality.
Let me ask you a couple of questions and answer honestly to yourself.
Brain Surgeon V YOU as a pilot.
Which is far more important to society?
Which gets paid more?
Why?
My answers.....
the pilot is far more critical to the bulk of society than a Brain Surgeon
The brain surgeon
Leverage at the point of sale!!
Personally I think most pilots (not all, some are on such a good deal already) deserve a little more, but its commercial reality that matters or there are lots of unemployed pilots and just a handful of slightly higher paid ones.
Cheers
J
AJ made it very clear recently that if the EBA got up he would not hire DECs/DEFOs on individual contracts with T&Cs equal to or better than the failed EBA. He made it equally clear that a NO vote would release him from that promise and he would do whatever it took to make J* a success.
If its not in writing and can be upheld in court it is not worth a piece of Sh!t buddy
The members voted down an inadequate EBA- AJ will negotiate and a new deal will be cut.
Similar to the QF SH EBA
QF will never allow a true group opportunity list...and short of strike action by all QF group pilots there is no way to force them to do so....they will just say no.
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I very much doubt they will get the DEC's that they believe. Word is certainly getting around of what a sh*t outfit they are. New EBA offered one more day a month off. WOW! At the moment the A330 guys are getting nine days off a month and spending the rest of the time overseas. For me to send my family back to Oz and spend nine days a month with them...... Fark that.
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DM has hit the nail on the head.
Most don't realise what is happening, BUT if the internal coup gets inertia WE ARE ALL F*CKED.
AIPA or the AFAP must act prior to the 12th of Feb. I can not understand the short sight and absolute disregard for fellow man that is transpiring in the current coup. Thank f&*k we are not at war and these boys are 'SUPPOSED' to be watching your back. Never before has solidarity been so important. All you Qf boys with an axe to grind drop your axe and think with your head. Go to AIPA and push hard. With the current coup pushing the 44% YES vote to sign up as AWA contracts on the voted down EBA4 condition's and leaving the 56% NO vote a minority compared to the current AWA number of pilots..this has the smell of another '89 and leaving the NO voters a masssive minority in a Jetstar of AWA pilots. NEVER BEFORE HAS AIPA OR AFAP GUIDANCE BEEN MORE IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For now is the eve of the winter of our discontent (forgive the theatrics) If the ball is dropped now a long winter it will be. Already the 44% of no voters is gathering speed and very shortly will be offered AWA's on the voted down provisions. Time is short and there is so much to lose. FOR EVERYONE. For Gods sake put all the sh!t behind. All you QF guys that sympathise, call Capt Woods, All you Qf guys that dislike Jetstar pilots for what has been done in the past. FORGET IT for it will be a pleasant past memory compared to what to what the rouge percentage are trying to achieve by coverting from EBA pilots to AWA pilots on conditions that where voted down and it is a possible 44% of what was the collective bargaining strength of the Jetstar pilots.
Most don't realise what is happening, BUT if the internal coup gets inertia WE ARE ALL F*CKED.
AIPA or the AFAP must act prior to the 12th of Feb. I can not understand the short sight and absolute disregard for fellow man that is transpiring in the current coup. Thank f&*k we are not at war and these boys are 'SUPPOSED' to be watching your back. Never before has solidarity been so important. All you Qf boys with an axe to grind drop your axe and think with your head. Go to AIPA and push hard. With the current coup pushing the 44% YES vote to sign up as AWA contracts on the voted down EBA4 condition's and leaving the 56% NO vote a minority compared to the current AWA number of pilots..this has the smell of another '89 and leaving the NO voters a masssive minority in a Jetstar of AWA pilots. NEVER BEFORE HAS AIPA OR AFAP GUIDANCE BEEN MORE IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For now is the eve of the winter of our discontent (forgive the theatrics) If the ball is dropped now a long winter it will be. Already the 44% of no voters is gathering speed and very shortly will be offered AWA's on the voted down provisions. Time is short and there is so much to lose. FOR EVERYONE. For Gods sake put all the sh!t behind. All you QF guys that sympathise, call Capt Woods, All you Qf guys that dislike Jetstar pilots for what has been done in the past. FORGET IT for it will be a pleasant past memory compared to what to what the rouge percentage are trying to achieve by coverting from EBA pilots to AWA pilots on conditions that where voted down and it is a possible 44% of what was the collective bargaining strength of the Jetstar pilots.
Last edited by Rostov; 31st Jan 2008 at 13:35.
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Management in airlines hold a pair of twos..they always have.They have bluffed Robin Holt, to a certain degree IW and certainly the JPC (who have their nice shiny comands-read pieces of silver) As a result, the collective approach has been to fold at the first sign of resistence. Management, be it EX, J* or QF cannot do our job...There is no revenue withour aviation being committed.
It is not about a wages break out...
It struck me recently as we landed in EGLL with bugger all gas (something I protested at flight planning) why bother to shave the margins when GD and these other idiots commit fraud and cost us more than that in a single swoop...
Wages are so minor guys..Less than 3% or operating cost. Believe AJ and the same sky will fall in, te very same one GD had falling in for the last five years....
It is their lack off accountability, the unviability of the model they espouse that costs money, however for the shareholder it is unfortunate that the parties that make the huge errors also "create" the financial information presented to the market.......
Sit on your hands AJ is holding a pair of twos.....
(and by the way if AIPA dont do the same with our LH EBA it will confirm to me our union executive are stooges!
It is not about a wages break out...
It struck me recently as we landed in EGLL with bugger all gas (something I protested at flight planning) why bother to shave the margins when GD and these other idiots commit fraud and cost us more than that in a single swoop...
Wages are so minor guys..Less than 3% or operating cost. Believe AJ and the same sky will fall in, te very same one GD had falling in for the last five years....
It is their lack off accountability, the unviability of the model they espouse that costs money, however for the shareholder it is unfortunate that the parties that make the huge errors also "create" the financial information presented to the market.......
Sit on your hands AJ is holding a pair of twos.....
(and by the way if AIPA dont do the same with our LH EBA it will confirm to me our union executive are stooges!
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Time to Get Together
I voted YES.
I still believe that the deal on offer was sufficient.
HOWEVER.
I believe in democracy and the majority has spoken. The actions of a few to offer themselves up to work to the EBA4 conditions under an AWA are, in my opinion deplorable. They certainly do not represent the majority of yes voters.
I would urge both these individuals and the company to take a step back and a deep breath. The world has not ended. You have not lost money as you never had it in the first place.
It is time to pull together AIPA, AFAP under the one umbrella, with a new JPA representing all interests.
The only way to secure a better deal from here is if we all stick together.
I still believe that the deal on offer was sufficient.
HOWEVER.
I believe in democracy and the majority has spoken. The actions of a few to offer themselves up to work to the EBA4 conditions under an AWA are, in my opinion deplorable. They certainly do not represent the majority of yes voters.
I would urge both these individuals and the company to take a step back and a deep breath. The world has not ended. You have not lost money as you never had it in the first place.
It is time to pull together AIPA, AFAP under the one umbrella, with a new JPA representing all interests.
The only way to secure a better deal from here is if we all stick together.
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QF Insider......you are spending too much time here and not enough thinking about airmanship. You bothered to protest about your fuel load at briefing but then went ahead and landed at EGLL with "bugger all" gas. That is the standard AIP strategy about nearly everything....scream then fold.
If AIPA took vigorous action.....actual action.....instead of relying on the JPC to d their work for them, then maybe you'd have some credibility
If AIPA took vigorous action.....actual action.....instead of relying on the JPC to d their work for them, then maybe you'd have some credibility
Fisty said
Good news - heard from a reliable source a well respected Senior AIPA COM rep is heading up a meeting with Jet* people early next week
and
So Chimbu, I guess you'll have to
on that one too
Any union is only as strong as its resolve. If any
chooses to go down this route (and I'm sure some will/have) then the squandering of the current positive situation rests squarely on their heads
hope the AIPA and the AFAP can work together for the good of all pilots in Australia before too long.
and
The J* CEO has stated that the Company accepts the verdict and will commence discussions for a new agreement "in good faith" when the current agreement expires
take him on his word
any pilot walking in and offering to sign an individual contract on the failed EBA T&Cs will receive a positive hearing
Any union is only as strong as its resolve. If any
chooses to go down this route (and I'm sure some will/have) then the squandering of the current positive situation rests squarely on their heads
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Rostov and all the others who are worried about AIPA/AFAP not doing anything about this, i put this question to you.
Have you folks picked the phone up and called AIPA/AFAP with your concerns? If so, thats a step in the right direction.
For those who have not, why not? You can complain all you want on theses forums and what not, but until you pick the phone up pr write and email NOTHING will change!
Bleat "united we stand" etc etc, but nothing will happen unless you pick up the phone!!!
Take some action yourselves instead of waiting for others to take the first step.
Once again to those who have
Have you folks picked the phone up and called AIPA/AFAP with your concerns? If so, thats a step in the right direction.
For those who have not, why not? You can complain all you want on theses forums and what not, but until you pick the phone up pr write and email NOTHING will change!
Bleat "united we stand" etc etc, but nothing will happen unless you pick up the phone!!!
Take some action yourselves instead of waiting for others to take the first step.
Once again to those who have
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For the posters here who claim AJ stated 'this and that' is exactly that=nothing! he can say all he wants until he changes his mind.
Do I have to remind people about the last EBA getting up? Oh, where is that north american contract company now??? How embarrasing to those so gallable!
This is about sacrifice for the long term, not a 3% bonus!
Solidarity people-moving forward and upwards
Do I have to remind people about the last EBA getting up? Oh, where is that north american contract company now??? How embarrasing to those so gallable!
This is about sacrifice for the long term, not a 3% bonus!
Solidarity people-moving forward and upwards
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Good news - heard from a reliable source a well respected Senior AIPA COM rep is heading up a meeting with Jet* people early next week
Discussions between J* and the JPA can be expected to commence around mid year. The AIPA or the AFAP will only be present at those discussions if the pilots employed by J* want them to be. I personally hope that will be the case.
In the meantime all new employees are being offerred AWAs until we see what may change in the IR situation.