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Merged: Jetstar EBA 4

Old 22nd Feb 2008, 11:23
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs down

What a pack of D!ckheads. Why oh why did I ever get out of Ag. What an embarrassment to all those who call themselves professional pilots many of the poster here are. Ridiculous.

Dougy.
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Old 22nd Feb 2008, 21:10
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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At last it is out there in public. To read more about how QANTAS bosses... plan to establish a two-tiered workforce that will see some full-time employees hired on less pay and lower conditions than existing staff, visit:

http://business.smh.com.au/qantas-plans-twotier-workforce/20080222-1u1g.html

To the innocent bystander, Jetstar management's decision to use AFAP and Jetstar to cut down to size Qantas pilots is just one ill conceived aspect of the plan.

If Jetstar pilots ever want to get a better contract and if Qantas pilots want to fly the 787 for other than on a Jetstar contract, there are going to have to get together.

While they are divided, management will continue to play both sides against the centre.

If I were a Jetstar pilot, I'd again vote down the current EBA and if I were a Qantas pilot I’d be making it clear to Dixon that unless the divide is filled in, Qantas pilots will Strike.
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Old 22nd Feb 2008, 23:52
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Stevie G etc,

Using a simple conservative comparison, QF could save themselves at least 80million AUD per year by paying jetstar wages to mainline pilots.

Do you think this is not a question being posed by QF stakeholders "what does an extra 80 million dollars in pilot salaries buy us that jetstar pilots cant provide?"

With the coming downturn and high fuel prices, what business wouldnt be pushing for this change.
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Old 23rd Feb 2008, 04:03
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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GingerBread Man,
I am with you 100%.
QF pilots go on strike and show the J* boys and girls you mean business and you ain"t gonna take any crap from management.
Please, show them how it's done.
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Old 23rd Feb 2008, 05:51
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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AnQ

Your absolutely correct. In fact if QF paid mailine pilots half of what Jet* pay they'd could probably make a whole lot more. And they may find they are cancelling flights, like say, um Rex. No revenue (or profit) in that for shareholders.

Unfortunately for all concerned (ie both pilots and management) there are considerable legacy issues which don't just dissapppear from an employment relationship.

As for cost of fuel ..... every carrier has that .... no competitive advantage is lost ...... it's not an issue (for pilots) until people stop travelling.

The issue for pilots is how they make the most as a group out of todays circumstances .... and in the future .... when a supposed shortage of experienced pilots during a time of demand.

I would have thought that a smart aircraft operator would be trying to gain an ongoing cometitive advantage by locking in those employees who are the hardest to replace (pilots and engineers).

Just a thought

Steve
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Old 23rd Feb 2008, 12:58
  #166 (permalink)  

Grandpa Aerotart
 
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QF pilots go on stike 'to show J* pilots how it is done'?

Oh stop....your killing me.

AIPA cannot bed down mainline EBAs in a timely manner...what 18 months and counting...do you honestly expect they can, or even want to, do better with J*?

Don't see them taking much interest in Jetconnect pilot's T&Cs...why is that?
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Old 23rd Feb 2008, 13:20
  #167 (permalink)  
Keg

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Danger

AIPA cannot bed down mainline EBAs in a timely manner...what 18 months and counting...
Throwing a line like that out without providing the context is quite mischievous Chim Chuck.

The reason that EBA8 has dragged on so long lies solely at the feet of Qantas Airways. AIPA had an MoU that provided for time relief for our President and other personnel as required- this included the negotiators. QF chose to renege on that MoU- despite the fact that it had been previously negotiated into EBAs and QF agreed that it would be put into an MoU if the last EBA got up. So the EBA gets up- previous regime- and QF decide that they're not interested in the MoU anymore. Now we're faced with the reality of trying to coordinate three crew on two different fleets getting time off on the same dates that the company may choose to be (or not be sometimes) available. Previously these crew would be able to drop and/or rearrange trips to get the required dates but no more.

Further, I know for a fact that AIPA has in the past and continues today to take an interest in the Jetconnect deal. Unfortunately it's a foreign entity based in a foreign country and so my understanding is that there is little influence for us to have on that at the moment. However, lack of appearance of effort does not mean that lots isn't happening behind the scenes. That's CRM 103 isn't it? I would have expected you to know that one.
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Old 23rd Feb 2008, 13:47
  #168 (permalink)  

Grandpa Aerotart
 
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Good answer

18 mths is still a long time...if they cannot manage better for their own how can the J* pilots hope for better?

Don't get me wrong...I'd love to see all QF groups pilots on a single list/one union representative basis, as long as a sensible approach was used within the varying contexts of sundry group types/operations etc, rather than 70s style unionism.

There is just NO WAY that will happen in the real world. It is a childishly naive piece of wishful thinking.

In the meantime I view AIPA's actions surrounding J* generally, and EBA 4 particularly, in the same light as the CX guys instigating an international recruitment ban to support the 49ers (and loudly proclaiming on this BB that pilots should NOT accept employment with CX until it was resolved in favor of their 'collegues') while simultaneously accepting upgrade training that ensured their 'collegues' had nothing to come back to.

AIPA has about as much 'cred' as HKAOA has...fix that and you might have the beginnings of solidarity...oops here comes the real world again.
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 00:50
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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AnQrKa

With fuel prices at current levels you would think it would be prudent to positively engage the people in the position of controlling the burning of this expensive resource.

As a line driver on the 73 I quite often burn 300-500kg less than the minimum fuel burn as planned by QF on any one sector. This is more than often, in dollar terms a value greater than my wage on that particular sector.

I could also burn a months wage worth of extra fuel in just a few sectors if I was p*ssed off with how management were treating me.
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 06:28
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Naive maybe but still worth striving for.

CC,

I don’t quite understand how you can make any link between AIPA and its actions with regard to the Jet* EBA and the HKAOA and its handling of the ‘49er’s’. Why not chose some other emotional and unrelated historical event like say............. I dunno............... the UN and the genocide in Rwanda. They’re about as closely related.

“Don't get me wrong...I'd love to see all QF groups pilots on a single list/one union representative basis, as long as a sensible approach was used within the varying contexts of sundry group types/operations etc, rather than 70s style unionism.

There is just NO WAY that will happen in the real world. It is a childishly naive piece of wishful thinking.”
The strength of sentiments in the second of these two paragraphs leads me to think that you don’t really want what you mention in the first to happen at all. It kind of sounds like when people say, “I’m, not racist but, ........ (insert racist anecdote or story).”


From everything I’ve seen from AIPA with regards to a group list (and based on how the original Australian Airlines and Qantas seniority list were merged) the ideals you’ve expressed as desirable are exactly what they’re after. They do want it to be sensible and allow the sundry group types/operations to have control over their own destiny, but in a way that means we can’t be used divisively against each other. Surely you can see this division is what Qantas management is trying to achieve? (Fairly successfully in many cases) I certainly haven’t seen anything from AIPA that has any resemblance toward 70’s wharfy-style-unionism.

Nuf
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 09:13
  #171 (permalink)  

Grandpa Aerotart
 
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Nuff,

Please outline for me the sequence of events required for the sort of solidarity espoused here to become reality.

The analogy is close enough for me.

One group of pilots want another group of pilots to fight 'their' battle for them by, in this case, voting down an EBA and foregoing a substantial pay rise in order to allow, in this case, AIPA, to attempt to get them a better deal at some point in the future.

There is zero risk attached to this for AIPA pilots/Com.

All the risk is being born by the J* pilots.

As was the case when the CX pilots were insisting that pilots not accept employment at CX until the 49ers were reinstated...while accepting upgrade training.

Zero risk for CX pilots but a massive career risk for anyone not yet flying for CX, or any airline, and whom had set their career goal in that company. They actually suggested people who knocked back job offers or interviews would have another opportunity when the 49er issue was resolved...in what universe?

Just how good a deal (as in how much extra on TOP of EBA 4) would AIPA have to get for J* pilots to recover what they will lose in the next 12 months if this is voted down...again?

Can AIPA do it?

Not in this universe. Remember no one from AIPA is suggesting the numbers attached to this EBA are not good numbers...in fact the opposite if rumours are to be believed.

You, and others, clearly don't like what I have to say on this subject...prove to me I am wrong and that your reality is the correct one.

Mainline pilots, and others, who post in this place are long on rhetoric about bringing J* T&Cs up to some level they deem appropriate. Many suggest nothing short of pay parity with QF Domestic is acceptable.

I have yet to hear anyone outline the nuts and bolts of forcing QF/J* management to accept that outcome.

Perhaps you would like to start the ball rolling?
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 10:56
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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Smile

CC-generally speaking,the longer an eba is protracted,the better the results for the individual.The success of the result lies in the terms and conditions obtained for the workers for the next eba cycle.Not the length of the negotiating period!
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 10:59
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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PARC....your name says it all. That's your attitude and you're not going to change. Hardly surprising your management are such hard liners too. You are a joke.
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 11:09
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Nuts and Bolts of what’s needed (mostly nuts in the current climate!!).

1) EBA 4 gets voted down.

2) Jetstar pilots get better organised, sort out union representation.

3) Pilot body elucidate what is needed to have a successful vote.

4) Submit a log of claims to company.

5) Begin negotiations.

6) After current EBA expires, pilot body remains cohesive and takes all necessary steps to take protected industrial action if required.

7) Pilots use the threat of PIA to counteract the BS, half-truths and fear campaign that will be mounted by the HR department.

8) Company and pilots return to the negotiating table to negotiate in “good faith”

OR

8a) or a complete s**t fight breaks out, company refuses to move on the 3% and other key claims, pilots throw the schedule into chaos with refusal to extend duty, taking the full 2 hours to report for duty on avail days, refusal to work on days off, turning up to work on time – not early, instrument approaches at every opportunity, inability to accept track shortening etc etc etc.

8b) Escalate to stop work meetings.

8c) Virgin and Tiger’s load factors shoot up past 90%.

8d) Someone blinks……. pilots or HR??

Without the threat of industrial action, negotiation will always be one sided.

Now, return from the parallel universe where the pilots stick together to achieve the legitimate threat of PIA, to the current universe where a fair proportion of the Yes voters will take AWA’s if this is voted down again, and tell me how negotiations will go come expiry of the current EBA.

In case some of you people don’t get it WE HAVE ALREADY BLINKED.

CC - have I missed any steps?


$100 says this EBA gets up.
Keith Myath is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2008, 11:12
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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genex-correct!That is my attitude,however I am open to change,are you?You know nothing of my management.I guess the truth strikes sensitive nerves.

PS.Why am I a joke?I certainly hope its not because I have a different opinion to yourself??

Last edited by Parc-Ratstej; 24th Feb 2008 at 11:36.
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 11:29
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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Some nuts and a few bolts

CC,

Still not with you on the CX ‘49er’s’ analogy though I see where you’re going with the ‘who’s-taking-the-risk’ bit. I guess where I see this one as quite different is that in their case it was something that was internal to the CX guys rising out of a very nasty dispute. No one is at that point here (yet), and in some ways hopefully some unity might prevent that. I’d prefer to debate the situation here on its own merits.

I don’t feel that Mainline pilots do want you to fight “their” battle for them. IT’s all of our battle and it’s much bigger than that. The problem they see is that Jet* guys accepting this EBA WILL result in a reduction in mainline T & C’s particularly as this is happening simultaneously with negotiations for the L/H EBA. Yes, to an extent that is looking after themselves but all groups will have very big gains if a group list eventuates. From what I’ve read AIPA isn’t trying to get Jet* T & C’s the same as Mainline’s and is quite accepting that LCC terms will be less than Mainline. Jet* will always have a competitive edge in the leisure market and this will most likely see the continued expansion of them in the short to medium term and the resultant promotional opportunities for their pilots. AIPA is not trying to stop this. What’s on offer for Jet* guys as a gain, is that their career choices then include mainline types and their T & C’s. It also give some protections and other opportunities for when Jet*s fleet expansion stops, as it will someday, or if there is a decrease in the leisure market or even just to handle the cyclical nature of this industry. That cuts both ways for Mainline pilots and must also include the regional pilots to be effective in the longer term.

The bigger issue with an acceptance of the Jet* EBA is not so much the T & C’s but that it effectively prevents unified representation. Easy for me to say but the only risk a Jet* pilot has in voting “no” is a short term pay gain (Made at the expense of any new hires) which wouldn’t take much at all to recoup in both monetary and conditions in the medium term. Usually this is recovered in back pay to an EBA date though I guess this wouldn’t apply as your current EBA hasn’t expired. Surely you’d have to ask yourself why they’re offering this carrot? Cause they’re a nice bunch of guys and they want to share the love? Not likely. Surely you can see that they are trying to divide us as pilot group. Heck even if you’re not sure vote “No” and see what AIPA’s got to offer at the road shows they’re running. Even if you decide not to go that way recent history (Virgin, QF S/H, and even this second offer) would suggest you’ll get another better deal on your table. Surely buying watches and dodgy DVD’s in Asia has taught you this?

As for the nuts and bolts; I’m a line pilot and hold no position in AIPA so I don’t know the final details but here goes. The first big step was obtaining the legal right to represent the Jet* and Regional Pilots. This legal right has been achieved after a court case and then successfully defended on appeal. I wasn’t involved but it no doubt took a lot of effort and expense. A next step is for Jet* pilots to join. The road shows AIPA is running are to inform you of the gains that would result from membership. Best to get to one and get it first hand and develop your own opinion. To get QF and Jet* management to accept a group list would no doubt require a lot of work and require convincing them it makes economic sense. The obvious one is stopping the bleeding of the Regionals with their massive exodus of pilots and I’m sure there will be much in the L/H EBA as it’s been stated that ‘everything’ is on the table. I’m sure the people working on this have a strategy but for obvious reasons don’t post it on forums. A good question to ask at a road show perhaps?

Maybe I’m still being childishly naive but if we don’t get some unity we’ll all suffer. You might get a sign on bonus and a few extra bucks now but the next thing you know Jet* will be giving your promotions to another cheaper bunch of pilots, or foreigners bought in under 457 visas or to foreign pilots flying under contract for an offshore company (Vietnam's Pacific Airlines perhaps?). Please don’t be rushed.


Nuff
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 13:00
  #177 (permalink)  

Grandpa Aerotart
 
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No Keith, that about covers it...particularly 8a.

Chances of unified PIA?

Not very good I would suggest. Remember J* is made up of pilots from both sides of 89..and most of the lower half of the juniority list is too young to remember 89, except as the year they were finally potty trained.

The chances of AIPA supported industrial action..as in "all out brothers"?

Didn't happen in 1989.

Remember for all the fine rhetoric from a few well intentioned QF pilots who post here AIPA and most QF pilots really do believe that J* will be the death of mainline T&Cs. I personally think that is overstating the case.

Take a look at what is happening in BA. BA pilots have just voted for strike action to stop BA's version of J* (Open Skies )

Perhaps BA have learned from QF how the Loco model can work without undercutting mainline after they fecked it up last time with Go...so they are having another bite of the cherry?

BA pilots are not prodding anyone from behind to go out and fight their battle for them...more power to their arm. Right or wrong they appear to have the strength of their convictions.

AIPA had their opportunity years ago to do as their BA counterparts are now doing but did not have the bottle. So yes Keith, in one sense, 'we' have blinked already...well AIPA did.

Now is the time for a supportive tone for what JPC has achieved. Remember Woods has not suggested there is anything wrong with EBA 4...this whole shitfight is not about EBA 4, rather who wrote EBA 4.

Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 24th Feb 2008 at 13:19.
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 18:42
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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Chimbu is right. Where's AIPA on Keith's list?

What about this list:

1) AIPA launches an immediate "Shock and Awe" campaign which shuts down mainline to ensure that all the less powerful QF group drivers are protected once and for all.

I'd buy tickets to watch that.
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 20:26
  #179 (permalink)  
Keg

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Thumbs down

Yes genex, it'd be the shortest campaign in history due to it being illegal for drivers to strike under the current Australian IR laws. AIPA would be liable for damages to QF as well.

Another point worth pointing out is that QF drivers have made it very clear to AIPA that if 787 crewing isn't included in EBA8 then it faces a torrid time of being voted up. No matter how good the pay rise I'm not signing on to a deal that doesn't give access to 787 flying when in red and white and thus has us all out of a job by about mid-late next decade. How far we need/have to go is yet to be determined.
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Old 24th Feb 2008, 21:14
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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Agree Chimba and Genex,

Come on mainline pilots, come out and show your teeth and help us achieve what YOU want.
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