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Old 19th Feb 2008, 21:32
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 159
If you need to join a union you've admitted you can't survive in the real world alone anyway. Don't lecture me on survival when you need a group of socialists to state your case for you! If you want a union to represent you that's fine - but don't lecture others that they "won't survive in the 'real world'". You get by in the real world by paying other people to deal with it. You don't deal with the real world, you outsource it. Just because you can't deal with what you refer to as the real world doesn't mean others can't.
Maybe some of us realise that we don't have the time, resources or inclination to individually negotiate our T&Cs.

Maybe some of us realise that the chaos caused by individual contracts would hasten the race to the bottom, compromise standards etc etc.

I would have thought that joining a union would have been the smart way to deal with the real world. (BTW have you ever been there?)

Have you ever worked for wages? Unless you left school and walked straight into a management gig or owned your own business, I can just about guarantee that your remuneration level and T&Cs have been, directly or indirectly, been bettered at some stage by a union. Even the RAAF, which has to compete with the airlines to retain their employees. That is, YOUR salary is affected by how well AIPA, AFAP etc can negotiate.

Are you happy to accept that money?
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Old 19th Feb 2008, 21:38
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 182
Keg

PAF,

Don't you dare bring up ANZAC's in a discussion about wages and conditions you fool!
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Old 19th Feb 2008, 22:31
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 101
Making Machiavelli blush

Nicely put Stevie g. The effect of pilot wages on a companiesí bottom line is tiny.

PAF, you obviously havenít dealt with any Airline management or the Industrial consultants such as Oldmeadow that they retain. (Half ya luck!) These guys do sh%t that would make Machiavelli blush. Iím not ashamed to admit that they would screw me royally if I tried to negotiate an individual contract and Iíd be stupid to try. I fly aeroplanes. I donít have a degree in Industrial Relations and have no inclination to get one. I donít even WANT to think the way these guys do. To have a Union or Association negotiate my terms and conditions on my (and my colleaguesí) behalf makes good sense and doesnít make me a rabid Communist.

And please, there is no link between getting a Union to negotiate your T & Cís and disrespecting the ANZACS. What a lame link to make.

PS: Good luck when you leave the ADF (Best if you donít) and try to negotiate your own contract with these guys. Believe me youíll need it because theyíll see you coming.

Nuthinondaclock.
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Old 20th Feb 2008, 01:10
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 219
Higgins,

". . . that we see a decline in standards throughout the industry."
Surely you would agree that a decline in standards is something the regulator must address. Dont you really mean that we have seen a ". . . decrease in applicant experience levels historically found in the Australian airline industry". The two issues are very different, the latter being a direct result of the boom occuring in the airline industry downunder. Australia has yet to lose a passanger in an airliner jet despite almost a decade of "declining standards". Even with the "decrease in experience levels", Australia STILL has some of the highest experience requirments in the industry.

Stevie G,

Your little example of how pilots are apparently providing thier skillset to their employer for free has little to do with the reality of the business world. Airlines are known to remove magazines from aircraft to save a poofteenth of a cent per seat mile but you seem to think that reducing the wages bill by tens of millions of dollars per year is somehow not worth consideration?

"So all in all, in a capitalist system where supply and demand are key, when supply of pilots is down and demand is up ..... their price should rise .... unless you don't believe in capitalism."

I believe in capitalism very much. But you appear to be a little confused. Your last sentence appears to indicate that you understand the dynamics of supply and demand, the very core of capitalism. And yet the bulk of your post is centred around support for an organization designed specifically to protect you from the vagaries of these market forces and to provide impediments to true market capitalism.

Holic and nothingondaclock,

Market capitalism does not mean to suggest a new era of "individual contracts". Airlines operating in genuinely free labor markets, where market forces are virtually the only driving force behind pilot salaries, still generally use one contract for all similar piloting positions. I dont recall hearing of Jetblue pilots all scrambling to sign up to 3000 different employment contracts, for example.
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Old 20th Feb 2008, 02:59
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,219
Speeedy,

The ANZAC day Analogy is this: I am in the military. I usually head out for a drink on ANZAC day. You think my colleagues and I are "protect species, public servants." I know I'll be able to identify you on ANZAC day when out because you'll be the one telling me what you think.

Stevie G,

You are incorrect. It depends on the price elasticity of demand for airline travel. Using you analogy why don't QF just increase the ticket prices by the amount you suggest should be passed on to the crew and pocket the money themselves. IT doesn't

Professor:

Higgins is like most of the hypocritical union sycophants. Cry "Market Forces! Market Forces! when asking for a pay rise then cry unfair if wages go down.

Nuthinondaclock:

If I'm living in a "protected paradise" on great wages, WHY DIDN'T YOU JOIN? Or if you were in why did you leave? If it's so wonderful on my side of the fence why didn't you walk into my paddock? Take responsibility for you life decisions and stop trying to feather you pocket and wallet at the expense of jobs for others.

Again, if you can just "raise" wages and raise ticket prices to pay for it with no financial loss why don't QF just raise the ticket prices and increase their profit?? Answer that one.
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Old 20th Feb 2008, 03:19
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 8,201
PAF, we all thought you might go into retirement with Little Johnny Howard, along with your pseudo-intellectual ramblings about market forces and economics.

There is a very old business principle involved in these matters called "where you stand is where you sit." Negotiations are just that - negotiations where each side basically tests its market power against its expectations. Assuming there is an overlap of best case/ worst case expectations you end up with a deal. If there is no overlap then no deal.

To make pronouncements, as you continually do, about who has a moral or economic claim to success is both irrelevant and misleading. It's like saying that India should win all cricket matches against Australia because Australia has a population of 20 million and India has a population of one billion (I won't argue the statistics of that because my argument is a little weak, but you will never pick why).

A negotiation is simply a contest. There is no logical reason that profits or wages should be any particular fixed share of revenue at all.

Here's a hint: Get rid of those self improvement books you seem to be reading and get a copy of "Getting to Yes" which is about negotiation.

On a further note, you didn't get a degree from ANU did you? If so, I'm ashamed.
Sunfish is online now  
Old 20th Feb 2008, 03:27
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,219
Sunfish,

Unions drive up wages for their members at the cost of employment opportunities for others and at an overall loss to the economy.

Many around these parts seem to live in this fantasy land that you can drive up wages and have no effect what-so-ever on the level of employment.

The fact is that unionists are out to feather their own nest at the expense of others. I'd rather people would just admit it and say "Yes, I'm looking for the most money for me at the expense of jobs - but so what" rather than get all offended as if their prime motivator was the good of all.

You should only be ashamed if you were awarded a B.A. instead of a real degree
Pass-A-Frozo is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2008, 03:33
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 24
Hi Prof,

I neither "believe" in capitalism, socialism, communism or polymorphism!

My point is that in our current society we have, and should use, our freedom of association because that's the way the system works AND in all avenues in life actors will come together to get outcomes in their best interest.

And that's what I am suggesting pilots (and any other group in life) should do. The sooner the greater pilot body realise they need to act TOGETHER the sooner the group as a whole will be better off ... for sure some will be worse of ... some better off ... it may cause airlines to grow more slowly because of scary higher salaries ... too bad ..... since when has growth been the only mantra.

Nuff of my little rage. ..... ps didn't mention anything about pilots working for free ...... ?????

Sorry for any thread drift guys but think some of this is relevant
stevie g is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2008, 03:35
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Roguesville, cloud cuckooland
Posts: 1,178
Today's topic:

ADF pilots are paid less than half of airline pilot wages due to the control of supply by a monopoly employer, legislation which places severe restraint of trade on ADF pilots and; lack of access to effective collective bargaining.

Discuss.
Capt Kremin is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2008, 03:40
  #150 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Keeping The Enema Bandit in line
Posts: 323
What I'd like to know Sunfish, is does PAF sit around reading PPRuNe during work hours at taxpayers expense?
Enema Bandit's Dad is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2008, 04:18
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 165
We've been hearing about the coming pilot shortage for years. It finally has arrived. We are now in demand.
Now is the time to sign off on a very very average deal.
When the wheel turns and we have a surplus of pilots, big business will feel sorry for us and thank us and give us a big increase.
That's how the world works.
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Old 20th Feb 2008, 10:45
  #152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 101
One small leap for (a) man but a massive leap was made by PAF

PAF,

I think you better read my post again because at no point did I say anything about you living in a ďprotected paradiseĒ. Those are your words not mine. I also never said I thought you were on great wages. (Seriously, how did you come to this conclusion, and a few others, from what I actually wrote?) Iím quite happy where I am and have no desire to join you in the ADF. Because you bought it up Iím also very happy with the life decisions Iíve made. What I did say is that the area of negotiation with Airline management and consultants such as Oldmeadow is one you have not been exposed to in much the same way as I have no idea about how the ADFís infrastructure works. Itís not being critical of you saying this, you just havenít experienced it yet where I have. My other point was that I disagree with your criticism of people using Unions to negotiate T & Cís with these people. I believe it would be foolish to not use the people who are qualified and experienced in these matters and to go it on your own would be at your peril. Study history and look at the conditions that existed post WW2 in airlines before pilots became unified.

Within reasonable terms I disagree with your statement that the number of jobs is dictated by the wage a pilot is paid. The market dictates the number of aircraft required and the airline has to crew them. I think youíre seriously overstating our influence if you think our wage affects how many aeroplanes an airline flies between two places. I havenít seen any outrageous wage claims being made by anyone that would seriously even show on an airlineís bottom line. To answer your last question the price an airline asks for a ticket is certainly not dictated by a pilotís wage. Airlines ask the highest price they think they can on any flight with a balance always being made between this and how many people will buy them. It seems like a bit of a black art to me but they have whole departments that deal with this ĎYield Managementí. At the end of the day airline management is trying to maximise its profits and managers are paid obscene bonuses to achieve this. Even when an airline is making record profits, like Qantas is, they will still try to reduce their staff wages as much as possible. Thatís their job. The thing is most of us expect this (it really is an adversarial position between airlines and staff when it comes to T & Cís) and thatís why we choose to negotiate together as a group to achieve the best result for us all.

Back to the original subject of the thread I really hope the Group Opportunity List can eventuate in the Qantas Group soon to secure a future for ALL Qantas Group pilots. It can ONLY be a good thing and anyone saying otherwise is spreading misinformation. Thereís always a few di%^heads in any group that will write stupid crap on forums. IGNORE THEM! They certainly donít reflect the opinions of the greater majority of guys I fly with. Good luck to the Jetstar guys with their EBA vote. I hope you can at the least get the better terms and conditions you deserve but will be much happier if the offer is voted down and we can finally get a unified pilot group in this country. It can only be a good thing for ALL of us.

Nuthinondaclock.
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Old 21st Feb 2008, 00:50
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Keeping The Enema Bandit in line
Posts: 323
Genex has disappeared out of the equation hasn't he?
Enema Bandit's Dad is offline  
Old 21st Feb 2008, 04:01
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: vic
Age: 19
Posts: 296
Judging by his absence, I guess he/she anwered my question. He/she is JQ management.
dodgybrothers is offline  
Old 21st Feb 2008, 04:51
  #155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 161
Sorry...was busy in the real world.

Couldn't manage my way out of a paper bag if that helps.
genex is offline  
Old 21st Feb 2008, 05:41
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 182
Couldn't manage my way out of a paper bag if that helps.
Well I guess that confirms that you are indeed management in the QF group.
speeeedy is offline  
Old 21st Feb 2008, 08:50
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: bush
Age: 45
Posts: 32
Somebody by that person a beer!!! Classic comment there speeeedy, luv ya work
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Old 21st Feb 2008, 20:02
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 161
Speedy...it took me 15 seconds of typing and 50 minutes of waiting for you to show exactly how predictable....and wrong....you are. Like shooting fish in a barrel....but still fun.
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Old 21st Feb 2008, 20:35
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Next door to Hell
Posts: 149
fish and bikes, fish and barrels....
Someones fishing for something.
Back on topic, When does Crayfish season start?


I wanna be a pilot when I grow up.
fender is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2008, 02:23
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 56
Posts: 277
Have to agree with Nuth.... here.
PAF's argument is based on the overriding assumption that lower wages means more jobs.
Pilot wages at best are only a very minor factor and have little sway on the recruitment requirements of any airline or even the ADF.
If the ADF were to decrease the salaries of pilots would they employ more?
No, because they would still not be able to afford more aircraft, equipment, training, houses, fuel and staff to support them with the very small savings in salaries.
Airlines are no different.
Civilian airline crews have done all the hard yards themselves, whether it was working three shifts to pay for their licenses and qualifications or getting free training and doing their military service, placing their life on the line at half pay for the defense of their country.
Hopefully when/if you get here PAF you will realize that you are a professional, highly trained valuable resource who deserves to be well compensated for the services you are capable of providing.
Think a bit more about your own future before you attempt to shoot down those of us who are fighting to ensure that you and others have an opportunity to be rewarded adequately for your chosen profession.
Meanwhile, good luck and thanks for the job that you do.
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