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Old 18th Feb 2008, 04:57
  #121 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: West of The East
Posts: 49
Not only are genex's comments complete fabrications (if not lies), the statement about an aircraft not making money because of "AIPA's demands" shows his ignorance to real economics.

He/she is Bulls&*t artist, pure and simple.
I'm Driving is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2008, 05:21
  #122 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: I prefer to remain north of a direct line BNE-ADL
Age: 46
Posts: 1,199
AIPA is as useful to growth, jobs and competitiveness as a bicycle is to a fish.
Hey Genex! Bikes provide good structure and reef forming areas when dumped in the sea, very useful to fish!! Ive seen it first hand!
Angle of Attack is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2008, 05:32
  #123 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 159
G'day genex,

Keep up the excellent posts.

As an obvious management stooge/wannabe/brown nose, your posts full of blatant lies and half arsed arguments are quite convincing.

Convincing, in that any thinking line pilot should realise that if management see AIPA as such a threat, perhaps they better join.

Beats any roadshow
'holic is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2008, 10:16
  #124 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 161
Yawn.........time for bed children. You've had a big day Jumping to conclusions, Running down dead end tracks, Plastering over cracks in your own arguments and Making your own bed so you can lie in it. (Gee I'm good!).

Look, I've been flying a long time all over the world. I honestly think that the B777 was what God had in mind when He invented flying. I have shared skies with many of you and cockpits with some. I am neither a fool nor an ogre.BUt I have sen a lot of this before.

I am simply, in the nicest CRM way....sharing some thoughts about how Qantas might best meet the challenges ahead. Of those thoughts some are no doubt wrong or mis-guided. My joy is in the forum, not getting my own way. I only ask that AIPA take itself with the same dash of salt and remember that much as we think that we know it all in the cockpit (as we should!)....outside of it there are competing ideas. I have lived in worlds where jobs faded like snow in the sun and it is not fun. Afterwards is too late that's all I'm trying to say.

Safe flying. It has been a long day and new challenges will come tomorrow. Chill.
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Old 18th Feb 2008, 11:22
  #125 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2000
Location: vic
Age: 20
Posts: 297

simple yes or no answer, are you Jetstar management?
dodgybrothers is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2008, 13:22
  #126 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: I prefer to remain north of a direct line BNE-ADL
Age: 46
Posts: 1,199

And Simple question do you agree that bicyles on the sea bed can make fantastic artificial reefs for fish? Very very beneficial! I think its called a symbiotic relationship, probably a word you dont know being in management!
Either way Im heading out for another fishing day tomorrow! Wish me luck! Hopefully I dont catch too many bikes! But lots of fish! Well I always do anyway! hehe!
Angle of Attack is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2008, 14:45
  #127 (permalink)  
Patty O'Furniture
Posts: n/a

-this revote includes awa's (ie: those whom in which the previous vote did not apply to)

- the offer that is being revoted applies to captains (good bonuses) and cfo's (doubling their pay)(those who the majority were under eba's)

- this eba is intended to lock pilots in for 5 years, underpaid, in the biggest pilot shortage this country has seen.

- the conditions offered will not compete aginst rival carriers when 'competing' for fo's. hence no new pilots.

- no increase for training captains despite dealing with guys with less and less experience.

- a management bonus, not a performance bonus. which means u will get less if the comapny is not performing and more if the company is performing despite rocking up and doing the same job every day.

- u will still pay for your jepps on the a320

- u will still pay for your medical.

To those captains who want their 20g this winter: DO NOT VOTE THIS IN.

the jpa is a joke, let's get some proper representation and get it sorted, for the long term.
Old 18th Feb 2008, 21:05
  #128 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 81
Thankyou, finally someone post some info about the "offer" rather than a slanging match AFAP..AIPA... blah blah blah. Post are more interesting when they can keep on track.
Higs is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2008, 03:36
  #129 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 24
Libs to agree to abolish AWA's

Don't vote too soon .... the libs have just announced they got it wrong on AWA's ..... so will be voting in the senate to abolish them ....

Hockey - "I don't think many ministers in cabinet were aware that you could be worse off under Work Choices and that you could actually have certain conditions taken away without compensation," .... really!

So just wait ...... any new agreement won't allow for AWA's.
stevie g is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2008, 06:25
  #130 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: australia
Age: 71
Posts: 907
Just a heads up for the nimrods negotiating the "New Deal "that was never to be ,"Take it or leave it, this is as good as it's going to get", you know the one!,
just make sure your new contract abides by the new Award rules and it's 10 mandatory provisions, if not ,demand them, you're entitled to them .

P.S. any JetStar F/O had better ask some questions reference what the new deal with Direct entry Captains is! Wouldn't want your 2 years to command to slip away now would you.
blow.n.gasket is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2008, 06:51
  #131 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: australia
Age: 71
Posts: 907
Well Gee Wizz, AIPA's been around since the early 80's and 'till recently could legally only look after Mainline pilots, that might explain why they couldn't look after other group pilot problems in the Qantas juggernaught.

Probably just as well they couldn't,either, considering the simpering ,syncophantic would be's that could be, that were acting very much like JPC doppleganger's back then.

Tell me genex, this AIPA mob you're so keen to cane, aren't they the Union representing the pilots of an airline that announced how many $10's of millions profit?
Just how much profit would JetStar make if you stripped out all the cross subsidisation?

I think everyone on this websight is of the opinion, "A fair days pay for a fair day's work", the basis of nearly 110 years of industrial policy in this country ,until little jackboot Johnny got carried away with his WorkChoices Perestroika.
blow.n.gasket is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2008, 10:26
  #132 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,219
Yes of course Speeedy. AIPA's angle will ensure more pilot's earning more money...

What fantasy land do you live in...

AIPA (and all unions) are about more money for some but FEWER job ops for overall.
Pass-A-Frozo is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2008, 10:44
  #133 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Wherever I can log on.
Posts: 1,766
PAF - not fantasy-land. Reality-land is that there is a severe pilot shortage and thus we can pursue real pay rises & improvements in Terms and Conditions without causing our peers to miss out on jobs and career development.

AIPA's priorities are (and have always been):-
1. Maintain existing jobs & strive to increase jobs,
2. Maintain existing T's & C's & strive to improve them.
Going Boeing is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2008, 10:49
  #134 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,219
Nice Dream Going Boeing, but not grounded in reality. The higher you price a product (including labour) the lower the demand for that product.

Sure, a shortage shifts the demand curve to the right, but the union driving conditions above the market rate decreases demand.

To take things to an extreme to prove a point: if the union managed to get an EBA up that caused all pilots will be paid $400,000 , do you think that there would be more jobs than if an EBA got up that all pilots will be paid $100,000 ?

This is why I have insisted that Unions are for the domain of the selfish. Looking after themselves. I'm all for people looking after themselves, but let's not go down this path of trying to put forward the illusion that the union pushing for higher T&C's / Pay creates more jobs. It's simply illogical.

Just admit that during a shortage the union can push for higher pay and new jobs will still be created (well depending on the level on the increase!) - but not as many jobs that would have been created otherwise.

What you have argued is that we could increase the price of Airline Tickets and their would be no effect on the number of ticket sales. If that's the case then you are a genius and should be in management - because what that means is that QF could simply increase ticket prices and increase profit.
Pass-A-Frozo is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2008, 11:14
  #135 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 182
So PAF, if we all accept a wage of $50K there will be such demand for air travel (we'll ignore the FACT that pilots wages are virtually invisible in an airline ticket) that even you might get a gig, is that the theory????

If you only ever believe one thing I say, please believe this: stay where you are, you just won't make it in the real world.

I just love it when a protected species public servant lectures us all about unions!
speeeedy is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2008, 11:16
  #136 (permalink)  

Nunc est bibendum
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,521
....but the union driving conditions above the market rate decreases demand.
Hang on a sec though PAF, you're starting from a position with a pretty big straw man and some ill defined boundaries on top of that. First of all, who said that AIPA is driving for conditions above the 'market rate'. QF IS the market for 744 drivers and they were the market for A330 drivers, etc until J* blinked. Now the 'market' is whatever can be negotiated.

You of all people should understand the symbiotic relationship between cost and demand. Why doesn't that apply to pilots as well?
Keg is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2008, 11:25
  #137 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,219
Keg: You make a reasonable point claiming QANTAS to be a Monopsony, however I don't think that applies given the recruiting of overseas airlines. Pilot's are upward and mobile enough to accept a job overseas. If you don't wish to - that's a financial decision you make.

Speedy: Ahhh.. yet another man who on ANZAC day will be yelling "You're all public servants, you bunch of protected species." Let me guess, you respect WWII vets but no-one else right?

Speeedy, If you need to join a union you've admitted you can't survive in the real world alone anyway. Don't lecture me on survival when you need a group of socialists to state your case for you! If you want a union to represent you that's fine - but don't lecture others that they "won't survive in the 'real world'". You get by in the real world by paying other people to deal with it. You don't deal with the real world, you outsource it. Just because you can't deal with what you refer to as the real world doesn't mean others can't.

You're only dealing with the real world at PPRuNe over the last 2 years of your membership appears to be slagging off JetStar. For someone with 11,000 hours there is only one reason why you would do that - trying to convince others below you not to accept jobs they are happy with because you fear it will have an effect on your salary. Is that the real world? Try to bully people into not accepting jobs they aspire to because you feel it may effect the nest you've created?

Real World indeed. I've got your number pegged. Join a union and let them strike the case for your pay rise whilst trying to intimidate those coming through the system to not accept any job you think may effect your position.
(increase your worth by ensuring others can't do your job)

If you think ADF or APS employees are "protected from the real world" then half your salary and apply for a job my friend!

Last edited by Pass-A-Frozo; 19th Feb 2008 at 12:14.
Pass-A-Frozo is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2008, 12:35
  #138 (permalink)  

Nunc est bibendum
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,521

Geez PAFie, I thought you were going to go with something like this!

Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to.
Keg is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2008, 12:57
  #139 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Posts: 601
Pass a Frozo,

So do you think that we should all take 50% pay cuts and pay for a job? Will that attract people of intelligence and integrity to the industry? Will that solve the pilot shortage?

No way! Unions are here to establish a line in the sand that allows new aspiring pilots something to reach for.

By simply selling out, both the airline managers as well as the pilots themselves are destroying the talent pool to draw upon in the future. An airline association and its membership can be one of the most useful resources for an employer. It's when things get out of balance, as has happened in Oz recently, that we see a decline in standards throughout the industry.
Chris Higgins is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2008, 13:49
  #140 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 24
So from my reading of PAF's worldview:

Any one who is a member of a union is a rabid socialist - does that include, say, the doctors associations? Or surgeons associations who look after there members by recommending higher fees? Unions are meant to maximise the "profits" of their members ...... nothing to do with socialism. Even companies are members of associations to represent them JOINTLY in various aspects of their business .... this is the way the REAL world works.

As for moving the demand curve down because pilots want a higher salary - and result in a loss of jobs - doing the math - if a two crew pilot pulls, say $400/hour (generous?), and the average cost of flying say a 737 is say $16,000 an hour (low I'd guess), for a total of $16,400 ..... a 10% pilot payrise would take total costs to $16,440 ... a 0.24% increase! You'd be lucky to lose 0.24% of customers. Should we take a 10% pay cut to get 0.24% more customers. I'd say not .....

So all in all, in a capitalist system where supply and demand are key, when supply of pilots is down and demand is up ..... their price should rise .... unless you don't believe in capitalism.
stevie g is offline  

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