Federation involvement at Jetstar and one pilot union
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Hey LC. have the Feds considered opening up membership to international pilots, or can you already do that? Sort of playing the AIPA game. It would seem to be quite relevant now with VB and J* both commencing International operations. As another poster has said maybe a stack of QF pilots would be interested in joining a Union that does care about all pilots in Oz not just the QF group.
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You are forgetting history.
The AFAP has lost more members than it has gained over recent years.
Ask yourselves why?
I suspect the main reason they are jumping on the 1 pilot union band wagon is simply due to the deteriorating numbers and possible demise of the AFAP all together.
They are simply out chasing the big groups which = big $$$$ with the style of rhetoric pilots want to hear. They appear to accomplish 0!
If LC and the AFAP were serious, they would start by looking after their current members
and the GA community in general. It is the best opportunity in years for GA to make some gains and the AFAP is silent.
1 pilot union may be good for pilots, the AFAP is not. Let them struggle in the quicksand. If it weren't for the LOL there wouldn't be an AFAP at all.
The AFAP has lost more members than it has gained over recent years.
Ask yourselves why?
I suspect the main reason they are jumping on the 1 pilot union band wagon is simply due to the deteriorating numbers and possible demise of the AFAP all together.
They are simply out chasing the big groups which = big $$$$ with the style of rhetoric pilots want to hear. They appear to accomplish 0!
If LC and the AFAP were serious, they would start by looking after their current members
and the GA community in general. It is the best opportunity in years for GA to make some gains and the AFAP is silent.1 pilot union may be good for pilots, the AFAP is not. Let them struggle in the quicksand. If it weren't for the LOL there wouldn't be an AFAP at all.
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AFAP >> Protection / coverage ...mmmmm NOT
For all Lawrie and the AFAP preaches History tells its own story....
IE: 2001 , lots of AFAP members / senior Kendell pilots out on the street bacause CRJ's parked - did you get us back on our saab's/metro's .. inline with seniority .. NO, even after we offered to fund all re-training ourselves .... and what else did you do for us loyal AFAP members after taking our contributions for years and prommising protection in such an event ... ZIP
SO for all the AFAP current members ....Good Luck
IE: 2001 , lots of AFAP members / senior Kendell pilots out on the street bacause CRJ's parked - did you get us back on our saab's/metro's .. inline with seniority .. NO, even after we offered to fund all re-training ourselves .... and what else did you do for us loyal AFAP members after taking our contributions for years and prommising protection in such an event ... ZIP
SO for all the AFAP current members ....Good Luck
The AFAP have been and still are the only body that STILL represents a wide section of pilots in the aviation community. Industrial relations have changed significantly in the last 15 years with various governments, leaving the AFAP to deal with industrial issues on different platforms(mostly weak).
Until recently, professional airline pilots outside QF mainline have had nobody else to represent them, why has there been a change? The ONLY reason there is a choice now is because QF mainline is under threat from another group outside of their current members! THEY DIDN'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT ANYBODY ELSE AND THEY STILL DON'T CARE ABOUT GA, YOU ARE NO THREAT!!
Several years ago I was privileged enough to talk with AIPA seeking assistance in a huge industrial mess within the QF group. They politely listened to our pleas, but it fell upon deaf ears. Please understand that AIPA are protecting their own conditions from deterioration, to do this they need to represent their competition.
I have suffered from the relentless industrial campaign QF has undertaken to lower conditions, the only people who could us were the AFAP. Don't write them off just yet.
Until recently, professional airline pilots outside QF mainline have had nobody else to represent them, why has there been a change? The ONLY reason there is a choice now is because QF mainline is under threat from another group outside of their current members! THEY DIDN'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT ANYBODY ELSE AND THEY STILL DON'T CARE ABOUT GA, YOU ARE NO THREAT!!
Several years ago I was privileged enough to talk with AIPA seeking assistance in a huge industrial mess within the QF group. They politely listened to our pleas, but it fell upon deaf ears. Please understand that AIPA are protecting their own conditions from deterioration, to do this they need to represent their competition.
I have suffered from the relentless industrial campaign QF has undertaken to lower conditions, the only people who could us were the AFAP. Don't write them off just yet.
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Mr Cox,
Anything???
You parade in the defence of us but you're lack of action is appalling. I Have been with the Fed for years. You're a joke Lawrie. Stand the **** up. And if you can't then let someone who can. Get some balls. Saddens me that it's come to this.
D
Anything???
You parade in the defence of us but you're lack of action is appalling. I Have been with the Fed for years. You're a joke Lawrie. Stand the **** up. And if you can't then let someone who can. Get some balls. Saddens me that it's come to this.
D
Last edited by Defenestrator; 3rd Feb 2008 at 17:25.
I am surprised that Mr Cox has been so quiet, however what doesn't really surprise me is the lack of even a murmur from the challenge I threw to the AIPA in my previous post on the subject last week.
I guess that sets the scene and is a very strong indicator/marker for the direction of which the wages, terms and conditions will continue to spiral in the forseeable future. The AFAP seems somewhat without teeth/spine and the AIPA/QF group representatives cannot see the wood for the trees nor give a rats about the rest of the industry now that they have their "cushy job/s".
Take a long hard look at yourselves AFAP/AIPA. Your egos are the reason employers are getting away with this crap, because of your splinter group/I'm-alright-thanks-Jack mentality that allows it to run unabated. You've allowed the industry to bend itself over and shaft itself with your apparent inaction. Your bleating now falls on the deaf ears of the many now more attuned to your continued irrelevance. No wonder the TWU is attracting membership from within your ranks and you keep doing nothing.
There are second and third level airline pilot groups that have asked for your help when presented with CA's and it hasn't been forthcoming, apart from "take-it, that's the best you'll get" when what is offered is less than what they were getting now in a period of massive growth.
Australian Aviation is bleeding profusely, you just keep coming up with band-aids as solutions. Lawrie, don't take this post personally - you know who I am if you want to talk about it.
Regards,
OpsN.
I guess that sets the scene and is a very strong indicator/marker for the direction of which the wages, terms and conditions will continue to spiral in the forseeable future. The AFAP seems somewhat without teeth/spine and the AIPA/QF group representatives cannot see the wood for the trees nor give a rats about the rest of the industry now that they have their "cushy job/s".
Take a long hard look at yourselves AFAP/AIPA. Your egos are the reason employers are getting away with this crap, because of your splinter group/I'm-alright-thanks-Jack mentality that allows it to run unabated. You've allowed the industry to bend itself over and shaft itself with your apparent inaction. Your bleating now falls on the deaf ears of the many now more attuned to your continued irrelevance. No wonder the TWU is attracting membership from within your ranks and you keep doing nothing.
There are second and third level airline pilot groups that have asked for your help when presented with CA's and it hasn't been forthcoming, apart from "take-it, that's the best you'll get" when what is offered is less than what they were getting now in a period of massive growth.
Australian Aviation is bleeding profusely, you just keep coming up with band-aids as solutions. Lawrie, don't take this post personally - you know who I am if you want to talk about it.
Regards,
OpsN.
Last edited by OpsNormal; 3rd Feb 2008 at 21:54. Reason: content
Take a long hard look at yourselves AFAP/AIPA. Your egos are the reason employers are getting away with this crap
How about the fact Pilots keep voting yes to crap T & C's in contracts / EBAs presented to them.
AIPA/AFAP/JPC or TWU are only as strong as their members resolve.
Talk about a "gen y" mentality
I'm not going to bite, save to say apart from that try to play the ball, not the man in your arguments.... 
Name calling or (very incorrectly) assuming that because I have an opinion that differs from yours then I must be a "Gen Y" does nothing to re-inforce your argument.
What I have been trying to say is that without complete unity in our workforce then there will always be a wedge that can be driven amongst all of us. A pro-active union would have seen to this years ago to (at a minimum) ensure their own continuity of existence.
OpsN.
Name calling or (very incorrectly) assuming that because I have an opinion that differs from yours then I must be a "Gen Y" does nothing to re-inforce your argument.
What I have been trying to say is that without complete unity in our workforce then there will always be a wedge that can be driven amongst all of us. A pro-active union would have seen to this years ago to (at a minimum) ensure their own continuity of existence.
OpsN.
Last edited by OpsNormal; 3rd Feb 2008 at 23:52.
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I think we’re all missing the point here. It’s time to forgive the past and get our sh$t squared away once and for all!
As said by Lawrie, this IS a golden opportunity so let’s not waste it. The only ones that care about the industry are us. We’re the only ones that actually want to be here everything being equal. The rest just use it as a stepping stone and push it deeper into the mud, and we’re up to our necks in it.
There is one fundamental that keeps being overlooked – A union is only as strong as its members.
You can’t expect any union to work miracles without proper backing. To think otherwise is fantasy. We need everyone on board.
These should be wonderful times. There is more money floating around than ever before yet we are still getting screwed. The landscape has changed. We’ve now got thousands of tanks instead of a few guns but are still pointing them at each other, not the piss ant army that is the ‘stone stepping cost cutting collective’!
We’ve got them by the balls but are still powerless to fight them.
I agree with OpsNormal. Lawrie we need to see you and your staff in person visit every operator with an AOC. That includes every backwater aboriginal community to mainline. There are a lot of newbies that need to get onboard. They are the ones that can help us or screw us in the future.
GA is the key. The AFAP support for the Northern Air Charter pilot’s was great. They swiftly helped even though most of the pilot’s weren’t members. In the end, it still came down to the pilots, and they won!
The Jetstar guys know what to do. At least hold out until Rudd rolls back the IR laws. Good luck to you all. The year of the Pilot.
As said by Lawrie, this IS a golden opportunity so let’s not waste it. The only ones that care about the industry are us. We’re the only ones that actually want to be here everything being equal. The rest just use it as a stepping stone and push it deeper into the mud, and we’re up to our necks in it.
There is one fundamental that keeps being overlooked – A union is only as strong as its members.
You can’t expect any union to work miracles without proper backing. To think otherwise is fantasy. We need everyone on board.
These should be wonderful times. There is more money floating around than ever before yet we are still getting screwed. The landscape has changed. We’ve now got thousands of tanks instead of a few guns but are still pointing them at each other, not the piss ant army that is the ‘stone stepping cost cutting collective’!
We’ve got them by the balls but are still powerless to fight them.
I agree with OpsNormal. Lawrie we need to see you and your staff in person visit every operator with an AOC. That includes every backwater aboriginal community to mainline. There are a lot of newbies that need to get onboard. They are the ones that can help us or screw us in the future.
GA is the key. The AFAP support for the Northern Air Charter pilot’s was great. They swiftly helped even though most of the pilot’s weren’t members. In the end, it still came down to the pilots, and they won!
The Jetstar guys know what to do. At least hold out until Rudd rolls back the IR laws. Good luck to you all. The year of the Pilot.
How about the fact Pilots keep voting yes to crap T & C's in contracts / EBAs presented to them.
Apparently, all the AFAP did was help some individuals renew their AWAs.
They are getting some serious money in fees but don't seem to be coming up with the goods as far as I can see.
The AFAP needs to lift it's game and credibility before it will go anywhere.
Capt Bloggs is spot on.
The AFAPs assistance with NJS consisted of advising 'them that chasing a collective agreement was like looking for "Pixies in the garden" well guess what Lawrie, we found some pixies and thanks for your help! NOT
He sarcastically referred to the pilots involved in the negotiations as "IR experts" again those Pilots, who are NOT IR experts, achieved more in twelve months than the AFAP, who are supposed to be IR experts, did in the last ten years, and it was all against the advice offered by this lazy unproductive organisation (AFAP)
The AFAPs assistance with NJS consisted of advising 'them that chasing a collective agreement was like looking for "Pixies in the garden" well guess what Lawrie, we found some pixies and thanks for your help! NOT
He sarcastically referred to the pilots involved in the negotiations as "IR experts" again those Pilots, who are NOT IR experts, achieved more in twelve months than the AFAP, who are supposed to be IR experts, did in the last ten years, and it was all against the advice offered by this lazy unproductive organisation (AFAP)
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BRIEF HISTORY ON THE ORIGINS OF PILOTING UNIONS IN AUSTRALIA
The first pilots union in this country was the Australian Air Pilots Association (AAPA)
It was registered with the Conciliation and Arbitration Commission in 1946, the same year QANTAS became a government entity..
Australian pilots expected that they would enjoy legal and professional recognition as a result .However pilots soon became discontented with arbitrated decisions that were handed down by this body of the Menzies’ Government
This discontent ultimately led to the dissolution and withdrawal of the AAPA from the commission in 1959 and the formation of the Australian Federation of Air pilots (AFAP) based in Melbourne with an overseas branch formed and affiliated in Sydney for the Qantas Pilots.. A new constitution was drafted which allowed for support between the domestic pilots and overseas Qantas pilots, but not necessarily joint strike action. This new association was not a registered Union , consequently it was outside the jurisdiction of the Arbitration Court. This now allowed Australian pilots to challenge a rigid system within a comprehensive framework of compulsory arbitration that had existed in various forms since 1901. It would seem the AFAP had achieved what it wanted, Collective Bargaining. Unfortunately for the pilots, events were to prove otherwise.
Airline Management of the day again employed delaying tactics wherever possible when negotiating with the AFAP. Invarably the Domestic operators would reach agreement with their pilots but Qantas under CEO ,C.O..Turner became more and more intransient. The period between 1961 and 1964 saw legal manoeuvres, threats and counter threats from both sides .Gradually the AFAP gained the upper hand through being outside the legal procedures of the Conciliation and Arbitration Act.
The AFAP succeeded in 1965 in having the Secretary of the Department of Labour and National Services, Henry Bland, introduce a neutral, independent, dispute-settling body.
The” Industrial Relationship Procedures Agreement “,was established, as a form of collective bargaining with mediation procedures in the industrial arena. This new agreement was highly successful and became known as the “Bland Procedure”.
By 1965 the domestic pilots of Ansett-ANA and Trans Australia Airlins (TAA) finally negotiated a bidding style contract into place which included provisions for stability throughout their working life. It is because airline pilots are not in a position to freelance their special skills in the same manner as other professional people that they pushed to define specifically their career expectations through hard contractual terms. Qantas management however opposed any form of collective bargaining methods because they were outside the control of the Arbitration Court and stated that they would face additional pressure from other aircrew unions. Eventually through industrial pressures applied by the overseas branch of the AFAP Qantas reluctantly agreed to an 18 moth trial of the Bland Procedures.
Once again because of, the intransient nature of Qantas management and their “management prerogative” ideology, they reneged on the deal and appeared to purposely fan the flames of conflict, the result being the big strike of 1966. Both sides dug in and a long drawn out industrial dispute resulted. However, through the solidarity of the pilots, Qantas management capitulated with a new offer to negotiate on collective bargaining arrangements based on the North American Bidding Style contract that the domestic arm of the AFAP had negotiated into place nearly two years previously for the Ansett-ANA and TAA pilots.
What did the numberous strikes in the late 50’s and early 60’s achieve? What were the benefits of this North American Bidding System (NABS) and why did the pilots of that era go to such lengths to obtain it? Major benefits to evolve from this period were collective bargaining, comparative wage justice,contractual obligations affecting both parties,orderly career progression for pilots airline expansion and stability due mostly to the North American Bidding System (NABS)
The North American Bidding System ensured contractual conditions for pay that departed from a calendar monthly system. NABS was based on a 56 day bid period which, in turn constituted a 28 day pay cycle and 13 pay periods per year and guaranteed duty free periods between flying duties. Pilots had the ability to bid for suitable holiday periods and promotion, based on seniority. Holidays could be delayed or accumulated. Grievance procedures ensured that a fair hearing would be obtained where a pilot could elect to be represented by a Pilot Liason Captain who was a member of the AFAP. Paternalism and nepotism no longer determined promotional opportunities .It basically created a descriptive contract that unscrupulous management could not manoeuvre around.
The following was written by Sir Hudson Fysh about the 1966 strike upon his retirement
“Now the pilots’ trouble is over for the time being, they have been accorded virtually all they have asked for, even the North American type contract. They were fought by Turner over many years. The key point is that practically all that the pilots have been given should have been conceded years ago and $14 million in one year saved and much more good will. All right! Why were no concessions given? That is the question. It goes back to my bitter row, week in, week out with Turner. Also with Taylor. Both hated the pilots and accused me of being on the pilots side.
Sir Hudson also wrote the following about C.O.Turner:
“…he is completely, absolutely money and power mad…ruthlessly ambitious…flies into a temper…we are poles apart and antagonistic…never once can I remember Turner responding to a suggestion by me…on the other hand his mind is brilliant.”
.This escape from arbitration in 1959 and the subsequent success of the AFAP was the only example of a union circumventing the Government mandated monolithic industrial system. This led the Menzies’ Government to move to enforce it’s authority with an amendment to the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill on 19 October 1967.. This Bill amendment became known as the Flight Crew Officers Industrial Tribunal.. This legislation aimed to bring the AFAP back within the jurisdiction of the Arbitration Act and rendered the pilot’s choice of non-registration irrelevant. .The Flight Crew Officers’ Industrial tribunal, was chaired by Professor J E Isaacs who strongly encouraged negotiation and conciliation in preference to arbitration, which improved the industrial relations between Airline management and their pilots.
This escape from arbitration and the forceful adoption of collective bargaining in 1967, under the watchful independent umpiring of the Flight Crew Officer’s Industrial Tribunal ensured stability at a time of industrial instability for the rest of Australia.
That was then, what have we now? The AFAP a poor geriatic union that can barely lift a finger to help it's members, and it's prodigy the AIPA the old" International branch" if you like that hasn't won over too many friends in the past ,either. Is this due to a successful Government campaign to emasculate unions thanks to Work Choices, or has the fire in the bellies of our union reps died thanks to being too successful in the past and the shock of the "89 dispute. One too many battles using the same game plan?
Whatever the reason, who cares, what we need now is vision and the two main pilot unions to start working together again (which shouldn't be so tough considering their common past) so the piloting profession will no longer have to go with wooden bowl in hand to the artful dodger and ask "please sir I want some more".
Once a united pilots' union is once more representing the interests of all pilots in this country we may see a little less pissing in the wind shall we.
The first pilots union in this country was the Australian Air Pilots Association (AAPA)
It was registered with the Conciliation and Arbitration Commission in 1946, the same year QANTAS became a government entity..
Australian pilots expected that they would enjoy legal and professional recognition as a result .However pilots soon became discontented with arbitrated decisions that were handed down by this body of the Menzies’ Government
This discontent ultimately led to the dissolution and withdrawal of the AAPA from the commission in 1959 and the formation of the Australian Federation of Air pilots (AFAP) based in Melbourne with an overseas branch formed and affiliated in Sydney for the Qantas Pilots.. A new constitution was drafted which allowed for support between the domestic pilots and overseas Qantas pilots, but not necessarily joint strike action. This new association was not a registered Union , consequently it was outside the jurisdiction of the Arbitration Court. This now allowed Australian pilots to challenge a rigid system within a comprehensive framework of compulsory arbitration that had existed in various forms since 1901. It would seem the AFAP had achieved what it wanted, Collective Bargaining. Unfortunately for the pilots, events were to prove otherwise.
Airline Management of the day again employed delaying tactics wherever possible when negotiating with the AFAP. Invarably the Domestic operators would reach agreement with their pilots but Qantas under CEO ,C.O..Turner became more and more intransient. The period between 1961 and 1964 saw legal manoeuvres, threats and counter threats from both sides .Gradually the AFAP gained the upper hand through being outside the legal procedures of the Conciliation and Arbitration Act.
The AFAP succeeded in 1965 in having the Secretary of the Department of Labour and National Services, Henry Bland, introduce a neutral, independent, dispute-settling body.
The” Industrial Relationship Procedures Agreement “,was established, as a form of collective bargaining with mediation procedures in the industrial arena. This new agreement was highly successful and became known as the “Bland Procedure”.
By 1965 the domestic pilots of Ansett-ANA and Trans Australia Airlins (TAA) finally negotiated a bidding style contract into place which included provisions for stability throughout their working life. It is because airline pilots are not in a position to freelance their special skills in the same manner as other professional people that they pushed to define specifically their career expectations through hard contractual terms. Qantas management however opposed any form of collective bargaining methods because they were outside the control of the Arbitration Court and stated that they would face additional pressure from other aircrew unions. Eventually through industrial pressures applied by the overseas branch of the AFAP Qantas reluctantly agreed to an 18 moth trial of the Bland Procedures.
Once again because of, the intransient nature of Qantas management and their “management prerogative” ideology, they reneged on the deal and appeared to purposely fan the flames of conflict, the result being the big strike of 1966. Both sides dug in and a long drawn out industrial dispute resulted. However, through the solidarity of the pilots, Qantas management capitulated with a new offer to negotiate on collective bargaining arrangements based on the North American Bidding Style contract that the domestic arm of the AFAP had negotiated into place nearly two years previously for the Ansett-ANA and TAA pilots.
What did the numberous strikes in the late 50’s and early 60’s achieve? What were the benefits of this North American Bidding System (NABS) and why did the pilots of that era go to such lengths to obtain it? Major benefits to evolve from this period were collective bargaining, comparative wage justice,contractual obligations affecting both parties,orderly career progression for pilots airline expansion and stability due mostly to the North American Bidding System (NABS)
The North American Bidding System ensured contractual conditions for pay that departed from a calendar monthly system. NABS was based on a 56 day bid period which, in turn constituted a 28 day pay cycle and 13 pay periods per year and guaranteed duty free periods between flying duties. Pilots had the ability to bid for suitable holiday periods and promotion, based on seniority. Holidays could be delayed or accumulated. Grievance procedures ensured that a fair hearing would be obtained where a pilot could elect to be represented by a Pilot Liason Captain who was a member of the AFAP. Paternalism and nepotism no longer determined promotional opportunities .It basically created a descriptive contract that unscrupulous management could not manoeuvre around.
The following was written by Sir Hudson Fysh about the 1966 strike upon his retirement
“Now the pilots’ trouble is over for the time being, they have been accorded virtually all they have asked for, even the North American type contract. They were fought by Turner over many years. The key point is that practically all that the pilots have been given should have been conceded years ago and $14 million in one year saved and much more good will. All right! Why were no concessions given? That is the question. It goes back to my bitter row, week in, week out with Turner. Also with Taylor. Both hated the pilots and accused me of being on the pilots side.
Sir Hudson also wrote the following about C.O.Turner:
“…he is completely, absolutely money and power mad…ruthlessly ambitious…flies into a temper…we are poles apart and antagonistic…never once can I remember Turner responding to a suggestion by me…on the other hand his mind is brilliant.”
.This escape from arbitration in 1959 and the subsequent success of the AFAP was the only example of a union circumventing the Government mandated monolithic industrial system. This led the Menzies’ Government to move to enforce it’s authority with an amendment to the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill on 19 October 1967.. This Bill amendment became known as the Flight Crew Officers Industrial Tribunal.. This legislation aimed to bring the AFAP back within the jurisdiction of the Arbitration Act and rendered the pilot’s choice of non-registration irrelevant. .The Flight Crew Officers’ Industrial tribunal, was chaired by Professor J E Isaacs who strongly encouraged negotiation and conciliation in preference to arbitration, which improved the industrial relations between Airline management and their pilots.
This escape from arbitration and the forceful adoption of collective bargaining in 1967, under the watchful independent umpiring of the Flight Crew Officer’s Industrial Tribunal ensured stability at a time of industrial instability for the rest of Australia.
That was then, what have we now? The AFAP a poor geriatic union that can barely lift a finger to help it's members, and it's prodigy the AIPA the old" International branch" if you like that hasn't won over too many friends in the past ,either. Is this due to a successful Government campaign to emasculate unions thanks to Work Choices, or has the fire in the bellies of our union reps died thanks to being too successful in the past and the shock of the "89 dispute. One too many battles using the same game plan?
Whatever the reason, who cares, what we need now is vision and the two main pilot unions to start working together again (which shouldn't be so tough considering their common past) so the piloting profession will no longer have to go with wooden bowl in hand to the artful dodger and ask "please sir I want some more".
Once a united pilots' union is once more representing the interests of all pilots in this country we may see a little less pissing in the wind shall we.
Last edited by max autobrakes; 4th Feb 2008 at 04:41.
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Good to see some of the usual suspects vent their spleens. To answer those who might actually be thinking collectively as one pilot body lets deal with some of the points.
The Federation does nothing for GA T&C’s well then I will advise our staff who have been active in some of the following that have been doing nothing:
Jetcraft/ Alliance/ O’Connors/ Aero Rescue/ Network/ Skippers/ Cape York Air/ Civil Flying School/ Jayrow/ CHC Heli/ Bristow/ RFDS (all sections)/ Pearl Aviation/ M**Air/ Mangalore Chinese Flying/ Bush Flight/ Helicopters Aust/ Australian Helicopters/ Direct Air/ Police Air Wing WA/ BAe Tamworth just to name a few.
Also look at the cases we have run on Bond issues and you will see the majority relate to GA/ Regional airlines. We do always talk to our branch reps about meetings and I suggest any member who wishes a meeting at their port or company only needs to contact one of the industrial staff to arrange.
Yes we would love to able to visit many more off the cuff around the country but it comes down to the dollar.
Turbo tool yes we have been approached by QF pilots to join but have encouraged them to work through the issues at AIPA. It also does nothing to advance the position of joining the groups by encouraging poaching but in the end if that is the way we have to go then so be it.
And despite ‘rumours of our demise’ by some here in the low point of the nineties we hit around 1200 members we are now just under 2500 so we are obviously disappearing as an organisation. Ah that’s right wishful thinking on your part perhaps.
As for NJS I said that if thought an immediate change would deliver the union collective agreement (you promised that one Peter not me) then you were dreaming. Yes there is an employee collective agreement but not the big bold TWU you touted so hard for.
As for Max you need to do a little more homework yet on AusALPA this body was created out of threat by AIPA in Cairo at the IFALPA conference to which we regularly encouraged AIPA to attend and as usual tried to take over and remove AFAP as a founding member organisation.
But more importantly you seem to know so much about the grand plan pity AIPA still will not have all professional pilots in one body. Ask the question I have time and time again with no positive response.
To the ex Kendells CRJ I suggest you relook at the facts we did not walk away read the s 127 decision and collective view at the time. If you still do not understand it I am always available to go through the files and transcripts to show you the full process.
We operate within our rules and carry out the direction from pilot leaders and by the way Apache pilots do set my salary and conditions.
Again it is up to pilots to make this work but I dare say reviewing the responses to date here it would appear to be a lost cause if we continue to fight amongst ourselves.
Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations AFAP
The Federation does nothing for GA T&C’s well then I will advise our staff who have been active in some of the following that have been doing nothing:
Jetcraft/ Alliance/ O’Connors/ Aero Rescue/ Network/ Skippers/ Cape York Air/ Civil Flying School/ Jayrow/ CHC Heli/ Bristow/ RFDS (all sections)/ Pearl Aviation/ M**Air/ Mangalore Chinese Flying/ Bush Flight/ Helicopters Aust/ Australian Helicopters/ Direct Air/ Police Air Wing WA/ BAe Tamworth just to name a few.
Also look at the cases we have run on Bond issues and you will see the majority relate to GA/ Regional airlines. We do always talk to our branch reps about meetings and I suggest any member who wishes a meeting at their port or company only needs to contact one of the industrial staff to arrange.
Yes we would love to able to visit many more off the cuff around the country but it comes down to the dollar.
Turbo tool yes we have been approached by QF pilots to join but have encouraged them to work through the issues at AIPA. It also does nothing to advance the position of joining the groups by encouraging poaching but in the end if that is the way we have to go then so be it.
And despite ‘rumours of our demise’ by some here in the low point of the nineties we hit around 1200 members we are now just under 2500 so we are obviously disappearing as an organisation. Ah that’s right wishful thinking on your part perhaps.
As for NJS I said that if thought an immediate change would deliver the union collective agreement (you promised that one Peter not me) then you were dreaming. Yes there is an employee collective agreement but not the big bold TWU you touted so hard for.
As for Max you need to do a little more homework yet on AusALPA this body was created out of threat by AIPA in Cairo at the IFALPA conference to which we regularly encouraged AIPA to attend and as usual tried to take over and remove AFAP as a founding member organisation.
But more importantly you seem to know so much about the grand plan pity AIPA still will not have all professional pilots in one body. Ask the question I have time and time again with no positive response.
To the ex Kendells CRJ I suggest you relook at the facts we did not walk away read the s 127 decision and collective view at the time. If you still do not understand it I am always available to go through the files and transcripts to show you the full process.
We operate within our rules and carry out the direction from pilot leaders and by the way Apache pilots do set my salary and conditions.
Again it is up to pilots to make this work but I dare say reviewing the responses to date here it would appear to be a lost cause if we continue to fight amongst ourselves.
Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations AFAP
As for NJS I said that if thought an immediate change would deliver the union collective agreement (you promised that one Peter not me) then you were dreaming. Yes there is an employee collective agreement but not the big bold TWU you touted so hard for.
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Thanks for the words of wisdom lawrie ??, however I am compelled to suggest You do not try to justify your inactions with the pearl's of advise such as ..ie: ... so and so go look at X - Y or Z to understand the AFAP's (AKA) LCox decision...
We do not have to buddy we lived and suffered as a direct result of your decisions made at the time and sure as h#@$ do not need to examin documents to understand it.. a little less arrogance would go a long way, however from all the ill feeling here I expect the writing is on the wall..
We do not have to buddy we lived and suffered as a direct result of your decisions made at the time and sure as h#@$ do not need to examin documents to understand it.. a little less arrogance would go a long way, however from all the ill feeling here I expect the writing is on the wall..
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Well said LC.
Dr Smith... If QF does go ahead and send S/Os back to GA as instructors Aipa will have no choice but to be involved.
IMHO, Aipa will be of little use initially in dealing with anything outside of their sphere of operations. However times do change and now, what they thought could never hurt them, is biting them on the backside they too must react.
The days of a guaranteed management position in QF following your stint as Aipa president should be well and truly over.
Dr Smith... If QF does go ahead and send S/Os back to GA as instructors Aipa will have no choice but to be involved.
IMHO, Aipa will be of little use initially in dealing with anything outside of their sphere of operations. However times do change and now, what they thought could never hurt them, is biting them on the backside they too must react.
The days of a guaranteed management position in QF following your stint as Aipa president should be well and truly over.
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You've Got To Be Joking !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bloggs Quote "There were no promises by Peter. A pilot-negotiated ECA was a better outcome than the AWA alternative. That's what negotation is all about: you go in demanding a UCA, threatening PIA and then take what you consider reasonable. The AFAP didn't even try to get to stage one".
Absolute bullsh*t Bloggs ...... One I can tell you for a fact that Peter paraded the TWU mutiny on the basis that they would become party to a CA to show NJS who's really running the business around here and .....
Two.......The pilot negotiated ECA is better than the AWA alternative .....give me a break...... you are going backwards boys...... it's just with the chest beating you had no viable alternative without thinking a little.......
But then Bloggs............ you would never think about win / wins would you ....just milking the cow for as long as you can ?
Absolute bullsh*t Bloggs ...... One I can tell you for a fact that Peter paraded the TWU mutiny on the basis that they would become party to a CA to show NJS who's really running the business around here and .....
Two.......The pilot negotiated ECA is better than the AWA alternative .....give me a break...... you are going backwards boys...... it's just with the chest beating you had no viable alternative without thinking a little.......
But then Bloggs............ you would never think about win / wins would you ....just milking the cow for as long as you can ?
Have a Bex and a good lie down Blaster. Your'e too close to the edge!
FWIW, I never took what Peter had to say as gospel. Maybe you did. More fool you. It's all about negotiation, which you of course know a lot about as you did it, one on one, for an AWA (I wonder if the teamwork-centric AFAP was involved?). You've got a few cobbers over in Jetstar, I see...
FWIW, I never took what Peter had to say as gospel. Maybe you did. More fool you. It's all about negotiation, which you of course know a lot about as you did it, one on one, for an AWA (I wonder if the teamwork-centric AFAP was involved?). You've got a few cobbers over in Jetstar, I see...
