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Letter from AIPA to Jet* Pilots

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Letter from AIPA to Jet* Pilots

Old 27th Jan 2008, 01:08
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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The JPA have a bank of days for time relief, something else thay negotiated. It is used for JPA/pilot purposes. Where there are mutual J*/JPA business, e.g negotiations, roadshows etc the Company provides the days. Something else they negotiated. Seems to me the JPA were able to swing a better deal than AIPA here too.
Do I need to point out the obvious again Fistfokker?

Let me say again S L O W L Y. AIPA negotiated the same type of deal with QF which QF has chosen to UNILATERILY withdraw


Before you all suggest they must be in the Company's pocket consider what would the advantage to the individuals be, to have travel and time provided by the Company
.

What I am highlighting is that QF management had a similar deal with AIPA which was withdrawn when AIPA stopped trotting out the company spin.

Are the JPC currently pushing Jet* Management spin? From my point of view (and I have seen the EBA proposal) it appears sadly so.

I don't know what their motivation is to wholeheartedly support this rushed EBA when balance of power rests in the hands of the Jet Star pilot body.

From a Mainline perspective we have seen a past President of our negotiating body become Chief Pilot. Knowing our employers past tactics they could have been offered anything to get this EBA over the line.

Open your eyes Guys / Girls. We Mainline Pilots ARE NOT YOUR ENEMY
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 06:46
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Let me say again S L O W L Y. AIPA negotiated the same type of deal with QF which QF has chosen to UNILATERILY withdraw
Was it in your EBA as it is in J*'s? I get your point however my point is that the AIPA are saying to us we can save you from.....??????? but AIPA cannot even enforce its own agreement with QF. How is that supposed to give us confidence.

I do not consider mainline pilots to be the enemy, nor do I consider AIPA to be the enemy. I just don't like outsiders assuming and posting that our JPA is the enemy or that we as J* pilots are the enemy if we choose a different path to you. As for your SLOWLY comment, if condescending lecturing is the best I can expect from an association with mainline pilots or the AIPA then we surely have a long way to go before we can work together for the common good.

You, of course are entitled to your opinion as well.
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 07:03
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Fistfokker, some of us on this website have been flying for 20 years plus most of which has been with the major airlines.
What you guys need to understand is that you are being taken for a ride by AJ.
You will all eventually work it out but it normally takes 5 years + by which time you have not only stuffed it for yourselves but for Q pilots too.
You can never trust airline management in this country they have lied and cheated for a very long time and thats not about to change with GD and AJ at the wheel.
Please Jetstar pilots wake up and take these people on. What have u got to lose....your birthday?
VOTE NO....Go for a better deal. Talk to AIPA not JPC...they are towing the AJ line!!!!
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 08:52
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Fisty, time relief for AIPA officials was in the EBA but AFAIK there was some sort of legal problem so it was agreed that some items (I think it was 2 but can't remember the other) were to be transferred to MOU without further negotiation. That guarantee was in the paperwork sent out to the troops and the EBA was voted up on that basis. As we now know, GD simply reneged on the deal, making him a liar and a thief - after all, we pilots paid for the time relief in earlier EBAs.

As for enforcement, AIPA has been in court on this one for some time. I fail to see why it is taking the bewigged people so long, it looks pretty clear to me - you guys do this (vote up the EBA) and in return we (Charlie Q) will do that, including (explicitly) time relief MOU. There isn't much more AIPA can do under the still current industrial law.
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 09:40
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs down B scale

Jetstar pilots....be aware a yes vote introduces a B scale for new intakes. This is not a good idea in any airline particularly one that has worlds worst conditions.
The rot starts at the bottom guys....VOTE NO!
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 10:41
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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I just don't like outsiders assuming and posting that our JPA is the enemy or that we as J* pilots are the enemy if we choose a different path to you.
Unfortunately Fistfokker the conditions you guys at Jet* agree to will directly affect my working conditions.

The Impulse pilots had a gun put to their head.

The Jet* International conditions were negotiated in secret by the JPC unnecessarily.

This time round there are no excuses.

*we don't have to like each other to understand we need each other*

I'm prepared to work together for our common good, will you join me?

Vote NO and let AIPA help you guys get a better deal
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 12:15
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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"Vote NO and let AIPA help you guys get a better deal"

Ha ha...best laugh I've had in weeks.

Those guys have been in lotus land for over 20 years, wouldn't know an industrial tactic if they fell over one and simply want everything on mainline T & C with big white rats on every tail.....while outside in the real world....the growth and jobs go to other carriers.

It was funny but why do I feel like crying?
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 12:31
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Well then Genex, you deserve what you get. Good luck.

For the sake of us here at CX I hope you get a good deal, although with guys like you in J* I think I know what to expect.
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 13:25
  #49 (permalink)  

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For the sake of us here at CX I hope you get a good deal
Anyone else notice how these threads on J*'s EBA are all about everyone else's want list, notably QF pilots and those currently wishing to return from OS be it CX, KA or EK?

Now far be it for me to suggest they are prodding strangers from behind to go out and do their bidding with no attendant risk to themselves but I seem to remember CX pilot's, in particular, have a little history in this respect.

If, by some bizarre aligning of the stars, the J* pilot group actually voted down this EBA based on this prodding from pilot groups not currently employed by J*, and it blew up in the faces of the current J* pilot group and they ended up on worse/no better T&Cs what do you think would be the reaction of these disparate groups?

It would be "Oh well, **** it...I have still got my current CX/KA A/B scale so it aint a biggy...shame they couldn't pull it off though...I'd would have been great to move back to Oz and live in my nice house with my kids in private school on mainline QF T&Cs"

Meanwhile the QF mainline boys and girls would be going "Oops...well bugga...that didn't work...doesn't effect me thank god"

This is a turf war between AIPA and AFAP...both sides are lieing and the J* pilot group are the bunnies in the middle.
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 18:06
  #50 (permalink)  
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Lightbulb

Meanwhile the QF mainline boys and girls would be going "Oops...well bugga...that didn't work...doesn't effect me thank god"
Here is where you are wrong Chim Chuck. It does and will not just QF drivers but all pilots in Australia- no matter what the result.

There is no doubt that J* will continue to expand and require more crew. I'd like some of the F/O gigs that are going to be created to go to our hard working S/Os- many of whom have been in Qantas for longer than J* has existed. When seniority allows (so that we're not gazumping those already at J* but I would like to see a line in the sand drawn soon) it'd be great if some of our F/Os could get a command slot. I also happen to think it'd be great for a J* F/O to get a look at a mainline type also when their seniority allows. If/when this all occurs then all QF drivers have a direct interests in the conditions at J* being as good as possible.

The second reason why this affects everyone is because a J* pilot group with under done conditions threatens all of us in the industry. If they remain a very low benchmark then this impacts on not just QF drivers but DJ drivers also. Australian pilots need to try and remove this wedge of 'but the pilots in the other airline don't get paid much and we need to be competitive'. Competitive J* conditions make that much more difficult.

Finally, I have a huge moral issue with people doing essentially the same job for significantly differing conditions- especially when it is the management wallas who get the bonuses for this travesty. J* pilots should have better conditions- as should DJ pilots also- and I fully support them in that endeavour. J* pilots have at their possible disposal the combined assets and talents of 2500 QF pilots. Whilst AIPA isn't perfect and doesn't always get it right I'd prefer to be one group working in the same direction then two or three different groups all heading off in different directions.

One horse on it's own can pull 800 kgs worth of goods. Two horses together can achieve two tonne. There is strength in pulling together in the same direction. Now is the time.
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 18:35
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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I think that some of you Jetstar people ought to wake up and realise that management really are screwing you. Management will take advantage of a disenfranchised group, such as yourselves, and that group will be the poorer for it. Think about it this way. Do you really want management to get bigger bonus's because YOU voted for a lousy deal? Why should the money go into THEIR pockets rather than yours? Wouldn't it be better that it went into YOUR pocket rather than theirs? You would have to be naive to think that this offer is all the company could afford or has planned. Any company going into an EBA wants the cheapest outcome but they also budget for a greater outcome. If they don't have to shell out for that greater outcome, obviously the company (and execs) sees themselves as having an unexpected, and in their eyes, favourable bonus. BE CAREFUL.
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 19:39
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To some of the critics out there in Jetstar, have you ever sat down to think why it was that Qantas and Jetstar both appealed the decision by the IRC allowing AIPA the right to represent you guys?

Think about it!

For those trying to decide between AIPA and the AFAP just remember that what we at QF are about is solidarity, a united front.

Choose the AFAP and we might as well forget about it!

So please think very carefully.
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 19:44
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Wedge politics nothing new..

Throw in some envy and you have the recipe that Dixon(hence the lil fella) via Oldmeadow has been mixing for nearly on 20 years...
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 20:18
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For the sake of us here at CX I hope you get a good deal, although with guys like you in J* I think I know what to expect.
Does anyone else see the hypocracy of a CX pilot asking every one else to protect their pay?
The home of B scale and now C scale pay - perhaps if you hadn't bent over and allowed DE-FO pay in Aus to drop to $92K the J* pilots would have had more ammunition to bargain for better conditions.
The same position at J* under the offer would attract a $106K base pay and the potential for a command in 2 - 4 years.
So at least when CX was paying $120K there was the opportunity to compare less favourably the conditions on offer.
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 20:36
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The home of B scale and now C scale pay - perhaps if you hadn't bent over and allowed DE-FO pay in Aus to drop to $92K the J* pilots would have had more ammunition to bargain for better conditions.
Actually, Condition Lever, the CX Pilot body voted down the original $92K deal in late 2006, but the company imposed it anyway effective 2008. Labour law is different in Hong Kong! CX Pilots had no say in the matter...
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 21:57
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Chimbu has encased it all in a nutshell. Read it a second time. Everyone wants JQ pilots to make the world better for all of us.

Keg, in his inimitable well-meaning way has shown some of the key the logic underpinning AIPA thinking. Let's all have more pay....let our "hard working" S/O s have some of those choice JQ slots (I'd work hard too for 150 k and no actual responsibility) and lets limit JQ growth then....(this bit is implicit) fold it back into QF mainline.

Problem is....JQ is a different business. Much more rapid growth....no Heritage fleet units (744, 743, 767, 737) and no "we've always done it like this". Maybe this is what it felt like in the British Army 100 years ago when the Colonel Blimps were desperate to ensure that those bright scarlet jackets and horse cavalry would always stay. But THE WORLD HAS CHANGED. It change for them, it has changed for us. There are jet jobs for everyone. That is unprecedented and wonderful. And for Qantas S/Os too timid to jump and build a decent future....stay with the Heritage fleet. Based on past practice QF will operate the 747 for another 30 years so you'll get the career you wanted.

Anyway....to get empirical....if there are 2500 QF Heritage drivers and there are say (I have no idea as I don't fly for them) 500 JQ drivers. Then if the Heritage drivers all committed to a $2000 a month levy that would give each JQ pilot $10,000 a month strike pay if they go out to ensure that the Heritage drivers lifestyles are supported in perpetuity. Cathay drivers could kick in.

If I get a 320 job with JQ (have no interest in that but let's pretend) then I personally will join any strike where the Heritage pilots put their money where their mouth is and support my lfe the way they would want me to support theirs.

Fair enough? Read what Chimbu said again.


And the "foldback" option is a green light for VB, Tiger et al.....to really go to town.
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 22:13
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Genex said
Then if the Heritage drivers all committed to a $2000 a month levy that would give each JQ pilot $10,000 a month strike pay if they go out to ensure that the Heritage drivers lifestyles are supported in perpetuity.
What a load of hyperbole!

No one is asking Jet* Pilots to strike. What we are asking is Jet* Pilots vote no to round 1 of negotiations.

Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your faces
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 22:31
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So....we are all trained to have good Situational Awareness. Let's see....on this very thread the CX pilots announced that they had been royally done over by their management. And in a similar way AIPA was unilaterally rolled by GD.

But you'd both like the JQ drivers to go for a "Third Time Lucky" approach which will ensure you guys, the Heritage drivers.....get the vicarious pleasure of pushing for someone else (they are not in your union, they are despised by your members and in a completely different business) fto take some form of action (which to win hands down could end in a strike) in which you pay no price, and take no risk. And the "Hard working" Heritage drivers get all the best jobs whatever happens.

Hmmmmmm.....I must be missing something. Or maybe not. I think I'm going to have to buy shares in Tiger, Virgin, Singapore, Lion and Emirates. The true winners if JQ pilots vote to join the past. A few years before deregulation hit Australia the Heritage drivers left the AFAP to ensure they could go it alone. Well please do so. I think most of the rest of Australia would rather have the jobs than stand at the airport fence watching the white gloved and silk scarfed Heritage drivers give a regal wave as they taxi past.
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Old 27th Jan 2008, 23:39
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Have a think about that response to a perfectly reasonable post from a fellow professional aviator.

Brgds,

Much Ado
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Old 28th Jan 2008, 00:40
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Here is where you are wrong Chim Chuck. It does and will not just QF drivers but all pilots in Australia- no matter what the result.
I agree. Set a bench mark and it affects many near and far.

I recall on these pages years ago, pilots stating the conditions of service they were accepting wouldn't affect anyone- the Virgin Blue driver paying for his endorsement or the Impulse 717 pilot working for bugger all.

Mesh the two and you have the situation now! Pilots paying for their endorsements and being paid a low wage.

But it doesn't affect anyone!
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