JQ EBA to sell out new hires
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Can someone please expand on the 55% deal for new FO's? I thought it was 60%? Or are there new conditions in place?
Also are new hires still being offered AWA's? Do these effectively mirror the current EBA?
Cheers
Also are new hires still being offered AWA's? Do these effectively mirror the current EBA?
Cheers
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Can someone please expand on the 55% deal for new FO's? I thought it was 60%? Or are there new conditions in place?
55% for FO for the first 12mth, yes this sucks as does paying for your endo but at least the cruise FO, 60% of the FO wage, is gone an increase of approx 30k for anyone currently on that wage or may be assigned the 330 instead of the 320. Do I like it, NO, but that is the offer.
Also no perf pay till 3yrs as an FO or till becoming a Capt
Also 65% range introduced.
If EBA gets up everyone back to EBAs including new employees.
55% for FO for the first 12mth, yes this sucks as does paying for your endo but at least the cruise FO, 60% of the FO wage, is gone an increase of approx 30k for anyone currently on that wage or may be assigned the 330 instead of the 320. Do I like it, NO, but that is the offer.
Also no perf pay till 3yrs as an FO or till becoming a Capt
Also 65% range introduced.
If EBA gets up everyone back to EBAs including new employees.
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Chimbu,
You have raised some very good points, there is alot of arrogance/generation Y floating about these days, and the experience levels and maturity are showing on the flight decks. But at the same time its no bodies fault that the industry is booming. Because the industry is booming or the wheels may fall of the cart, does this mean we have to accept lower pay and conditions or sell out the new employee to suit our own needs. Is this how plumbers/trades people/lawyers/doctors or anyone for that matter behave during a well performing economy
Maybe we need to strive harder for better pay and conditions, so when the down turn does come, we are able to ride out the storm. And like always and forever, those at the bottom of the list can wait their turn and come back to job that is worth while and descent, not 55% of this and 42% of that rubbish! What are we thinking! We already have to pay for endorsements, some have to pay for parking and uniforms now, what next pay for the fuel as well because some day there may be a down turn?
J* pilots will vote this EBA up, without doubt. As pilots we always capitulate to silly threats and can't play hard ball with HR guru's that think we are so stupid and easily manipulated. Mark Vaile was surprised that VB pilots voted in an EBA as such, during a, quote "pilot shortage", and as usual they sold out the new employee "because it won't effect us". Well it may some day, when the wheels do fall of the cart, and you and I are on the receiving end of having to accept 55% of this and 42% of that, because this is now the normal industry bench mark!!!!!!!!
You have raised some very good points, there is alot of arrogance/generation Y floating about these days, and the experience levels and maturity are showing on the flight decks. But at the same time its no bodies fault that the industry is booming. Because the industry is booming or the wheels may fall of the cart, does this mean we have to accept lower pay and conditions or sell out the new employee to suit our own needs. Is this how plumbers/trades people/lawyers/doctors or anyone for that matter behave during a well performing economy
Maybe we need to strive harder for better pay and conditions, so when the down turn does come, we are able to ride out the storm. And like always and forever, those at the bottom of the list can wait their turn and come back to job that is worth while and descent, not 55% of this and 42% of that rubbish! What are we thinking! We already have to pay for endorsements, some have to pay for parking and uniforms now, what next pay for the fuel as well because some day there may be a down turn?
J* pilots will vote this EBA up, without doubt. As pilots we always capitulate to silly threats and can't play hard ball with HR guru's that think we are so stupid and easily manipulated. Mark Vaile was surprised that VB pilots voted in an EBA as such, during a, quote "pilot shortage", and as usual they sold out the new employee "because it won't effect us". Well it may some day, when the wheels do fall of the cart, and you and I are on the receiving end of having to accept 55% of this and 42% of that, because this is now the normal industry bench mark!!!!!!!!
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83 Posts on this issue and still no concrete information.
There have however been numerous posts denouncing whatever the offer is, and suggesting that it be voted out on principal. One well known QF pilot has even made comments to the effect that on the basis of this lousy offer (of which he has no idea) Jetstar pilots should investigate outing the JPC.......
Reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Homer, constantly reminding himself to reject the first offer winds up rejecting a beverage.
No wonder Joyce, Dixon, HR et al run rings around us, if they read this diatribe they would most likely laugh themselves stupid.
Maybe someone with the FACTS could please post them for the benefit of those who are not aware.
There have however been numerous posts denouncing whatever the offer is, and suggesting that it be voted out on principal. One well known QF pilot has even made comments to the effect that on the basis of this lousy offer (of which he has no idea) Jetstar pilots should investigate outing the JPC.......
Reminds me of a Simpsons episode where Homer, constantly reminding himself to reject the first offer winds up rejecting a beverage.
No wonder Joyce, Dixon, HR et al run rings around us, if they read this diatribe they would most likely laugh themselves stupid.
Maybe someone with the FACTS could please post them for the benefit of those who are not aware.
Nunc est bibendum
Nothing like being mis-represented is there. 
There seems to be a general lack of happiness of the JPC by the J* contributors and I asked how they were elected and how are they gotten rid of.
There seems to be a general lack of happiness of the JPC by the J* contributors and I asked how they were elected and how are they gotten rid of.
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it was the Qantas management that demanded we all go on EBA's along with better pay a
The following is posted on the Jetstar Pilots own website by a former JPC member:
Bull****!
Now there is a bloke really trying to rewrite history.
The reason the Impulse pilots went on to an EBA was because the now CP of QF (CM), in his capacity as President of AIPA, made it happen.
Jetstar Pilots, do not be misled by people trying to feather their own nest at the expense of fellow pilots. Remember these blokes, (CG, JO, LL, BA, BC) etc have a history of doing this. It is the original Impulse mentality and as long as they can maintain seniority over others (AN) they will do whatever it takes to preserve the status quo.
it was the Qantas management that demanded we all go on EBA's along with better pay and conditions
Now there is a bloke really trying to rewrite history.
The reason the Impulse pilots went on to an EBA was because the now CP of QF (CM), in his capacity as President of AIPA, made it happen.
Jetstar Pilots, do not be misled by people trying to feather their own nest at the expense of fellow pilots. Remember these blokes, (CG, JO, LL, BA, BC) etc have a history of doing this. It is the original Impulse mentality and as long as they can maintain seniority over others (AN) they will do whatever it takes to preserve the status quo.
Last edited by jakethemuss; 12th Jan 2008 at 20:31.
Whether it is Yarpies with residency, expats returning home from the sandpit/Asia (and it won't take all that many to do so - I can come up with 5 names currently showing serious interest in accepting offers that are/were on the table without even trying)
So I have bailed a few blokes up recently who were interviewed or approached by J* for DEC positions- why did they knock the positions back in the end?
One guy stated professional embarrassment. Seriously didn't consider repatriating courtesy of J* for this reason.
Another felt the lifestyle of Australia is unbeatable. But low cost carriers aren't conjusive to an application of the Australian lifestyle anyway.
The last bloke got cold feet when his monthly pay check ( including annual gratuity ) exceeded the entire nett earnings of a J* F/O for the year- an financial excuse to bail I suppose.
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? Isn't this an Airline with big plans to grow, how do they expect to get crew with these crap conditions, I cant believe management is serious come on guys turn it down and get real this is your future and your kids.
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jakethemuss,
not a truer word spoken, from what i've seen in my time at JQ the JPA/C have done nothing to provide me with any confidence in them. (the head of the JPA cannot even return emails) I seem to recall that when they voted themselves in to this position, the actual vote varied widely from JPA/AFAP/AIPA but they decided they had the majority and left it at that..
The company has 3 times the pilots it had then and i''m sure if given the chance to vote again the JPA would be back flying the line where they belong!!
On a bright note, AIPA/AFAP have been proactive in getting us on board recently, so hopefully when this is voted down they can take the reigns (preferrably AIPA)and bring us along side of other airline pilots in this country!
not a truer word spoken, from what i've seen in my time at JQ the JPA/C have done nothing to provide me with any confidence in them. (the head of the JPA cannot even return emails) I seem to recall that when they voted themselves in to this position, the actual vote varied widely from JPA/AFAP/AIPA but they decided they had the majority and left it at that..
The company has 3 times the pilots it had then and i''m sure if given the chance to vote again the JPA would be back flying the line where they belong!!
On a bright note, AIPA/AFAP have been proactive in getting us on board recently, so hopefully when this is voted down they can take the reigns (preferrably AIPA)and bring us along side of other airline pilots in this country!
Last edited by G Cantstandya; 13th Jan 2008 at 05:51.
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Well put together and thought out post here. GC spot on. After this current debacle I think there will have to be a spill. I only hope the rank and file see this as the looming disaster that it is.
Doug.
Doug.
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KEG, the JPA were voted into the position by a vote of the Jetstar Pilots, conducted by Elections Australia, they can be removed the same way. If a number of pilots were truly unhappy with the JPA reps they could advise such to the JPA and a vote would be held within a reasonable period of time. There a a lot more pilots in Jetstar than the tiny number that posts here.
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Jake, I know most of the guys from the original IPC that negotiated the first agreement. They have all acknowledged, and I have seen some of those aknowledgements on pprune and other forums, the very real assistance that they received from the AIPA and particularly the President at that time. They are not the people attempting to rewrite history.
I would be interested in you providing some detail of how the people you have named have "feathered their own nest at the expense of other pilots."
At least youi might give them something tangible to respond to.
I would be interested in you providing some detail of how the people you have named have "feathered their own nest at the expense of other pilots."
At least youi might give them something tangible to respond to.
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Guys at Jet Star,
JUST VOTE NO, if its a S**T deal. The offer will only get better. You need to look out for new starters too.
I am still amazed the latest Eastern EBA got up. Its not that good considering the current environment.
Its strange that 95% of people you spoke to before the vote did not like the EBA but then it gets through??
To many people fell for the last minute carrot/retention bonus which will be gone if a few years anyway.
We need to get more money put into actual EBA's so its preseeved for the future.
Bulla
JUST VOTE NO, if its a S**T deal. The offer will only get better. You need to look out for new starters too.
I am still amazed the latest Eastern EBA got up. Its not that good considering the current environment.
Its strange that 95% of people you spoke to before the vote did not like the EBA but then it gets through??
To many people fell for the last minute carrot/retention bonus which will be gone if a few years anyway.
We need to get more money put into actual EBA's so its preseeved for the future.
Bulla
Grandpa Aerotart
Captains getting a decent payrise + potential profit sharing = they will vote yes.
Cruise FOs (SOs) going from 60% of FO pay to 60% of Captains pay (MASSIVE payrise) = They will most assuredly vote yes.
FOs won't get much straight off the bat besides CPI but they will all be Captains inside 2 years if they meet the standards and if airline growth continues (massive payrise) = many/most will vote yes.
Long term FOs (are there any?) go from 60% to 65%= a yes vote.
Pilots not yet employed start on 55% of captains wage for 12 mths then 60% - but don't get to vote except with their job applications.
All plus CPI of course.
So chances of this being voted down purely based on the only pilots NOT getting a payrise being those who are yet to be employed and the incumbent pilot body digging their heels in on behalf of the industry/people they have never met?
I'd say minimal...I'd certainly not bet folding money on it NOT getting 51%...I will not be surprised if it reaches 70%+...its human nature.
J* needs hundreds of pilots in the next several years to crew ordered aircraft. This EBA is an honest attempt by both sides (and I know people on both sides, Gissing (senior management) was my Flying Instructor at Rex in the early/mid 80s - and he is a smart, honest, straight shooter) to retain and attract pilots...if it is voted up but fails in those two essentials, retain/attract, do you not think that both sides will be sitting down again to try and nut out what will, or do you think that management will simply say "Nope...that is it!!" and park aircraft?.
They're not mentally defective.
Cruise FOs (SOs) going from 60% of FO pay to 60% of Captains pay (MASSIVE payrise) = They will most assuredly vote yes.
FOs won't get much straight off the bat besides CPI but they will all be Captains inside 2 years if they meet the standards and if airline growth continues (massive payrise) = many/most will vote yes.
Long term FOs (are there any?) go from 60% to 65%= a yes vote.
Pilots not yet employed start on 55% of captains wage for 12 mths then 60% - but don't get to vote except with their job applications.
All plus CPI of course.
So chances of this being voted down purely based on the only pilots NOT getting a payrise being those who are yet to be employed and the incumbent pilot body digging their heels in on behalf of the industry/people they have never met?
I'd say minimal...I'd certainly not bet folding money on it NOT getting 51%...I will not be surprised if it reaches 70%+...its human nature.
J* needs hundreds of pilots in the next several years to crew ordered aircraft. This EBA is an honest attempt by both sides (and I know people on both sides, Gissing (senior management) was my Flying Instructor at Rex in the early/mid 80s - and he is a smart, honest, straight shooter) to retain and attract pilots...if it is voted up but fails in those two essentials, retain/attract, do you not think that both sides will be sitting down again to try and nut out what will, or do you think that management will simply say "Nope...that is it!!" and park aircraft?.
They're not mentally defective.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 14th Jan 2008 at 15:34.
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Dunno Chuck
AERO TROPICS AIR SERVICES – PILOTS REQUIRED
Torres Strait operations
* C208B pilots on Fly in/Fly out basis
* 7 Days on/ &Days off
Cairns operations
* B200 Full time Command positions
Salary packages ranging from $70K - $100K
Email detailed resume to [email protected]
Times seem to be changing. 100k to pole a kingair is good coin no matter which way you look at it. Hell 70k is. Least it used to be and not that long ago. No wonder the incumbents are doing it a bit tough to attract .....anybody.
Torres Strait operations
* C208B pilots on Fly in/Fly out basis
* 7 Days on/ &Days off
Cairns operations
* B200 Full time Command positions
Salary packages ranging from $70K - $100K
Email detailed resume to [email protected]
Times seem to be changing. 100k to pole a kingair is good coin no matter which way you look at it. Hell 70k is. Least it used to be and not that long ago. No wonder the incumbents are doing it a bit tough to attract .....anybody.
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The more J* pilots look at the deal the more it is likely to get the nod.
Chimbu summed it all up nicely.
Some are concerned about how much money hinges on the "bonus". Given that QF management are able to set targets that guarantee themselves substantial bonuses every year it virtually guarantees it to the pilots. It's not all just profit based, it can be on industry relative performance etc, management constantly move the goal posts to suit.
Given this financial year is likely to be a bumper for bonuses, is it worth the risk of a "no" vote?
A "no" vote may send a terse message to AJ & Co. but what is that going to do? Do they really care about morale, engagement etc? - No!
I don't think there is an extra $20-30k per pilot to be gained in a "no" vote, there may be a small increase but more likely a re-jig of the money as per the QF shorthaul EBA - rob Peter to pay Paul as Paul will get the vote up!
Rostering issues are a big concern but these are more an issue for a strong JPA - which there is not. In the current EBA, rostering issues are almost totally outside the EBA and done by consultation between JPA and management.
I would prefer a "yes" vote to get the cash and then throw out much of the existing JPA and get some people in there who can achieve results with rostering. Basically it requires people willing to do the work and provide the solutions to the company (the company will not waste time nor effort on rostering for "lifestyle"). The JPA need to closely monitor the rosters and patterns to ensure equity, fatigue management, lifestyle etc. At present there is little if any of this occurring.
The JPA need a big shake-up. They supposedly represent around 400+ pilots but are more like a Friday night social poker club, fumbling and bluffing their way through. New Hires do not receive a scrap of information on the JPA, many do not know who is on the JPA, there is no published contact information, they provide no information except individual comments on a private website, no newsletters, no nothing. They often do not respond to emails (when you can find an email address that is). They ride on the company roadshows which shows no independence from the company viewpoint. They are ill-funded, ill-equipped, ill-informed, ill-experienced.
What legal opinion has the JPA independently sought about this EBA? The simple grammar and vagueness of the last EBA shows how amateurish and unprofessional the JPA can be when dealing with such important issues and how much it opens the door for a company "interpretation".
They are reticent when dealing with the company, they will not take them on. The sim payment fiasco is a prime example, they take the company view rather than one of the few clearly worded EBA clauses.
They (no doubt under company direction) seemed determined to sideline both the AFAP and AIPA with the current negotiations. They were held in secret with no chance for the pilots to seek AFAP/AIPA representation. They claim no one asked, pretty hard when you are not told of when and where negotiations were held
Lets hope there are no hidden traps or "interpretations" in the new EBA.
Chimbu summed it all up nicely.
Some are concerned about how much money hinges on the "bonus". Given that QF management are able to set targets that guarantee themselves substantial bonuses every year it virtually guarantees it to the pilots. It's not all just profit based, it can be on industry relative performance etc, management constantly move the goal posts to suit.
Given this financial year is likely to be a bumper for bonuses, is it worth the risk of a "no" vote?
A "no" vote may send a terse message to AJ & Co. but what is that going to do? Do they really care about morale, engagement etc? - No!
I don't think there is an extra $20-30k per pilot to be gained in a "no" vote, there may be a small increase but more likely a re-jig of the money as per the QF shorthaul EBA - rob Peter to pay Paul as Paul will get the vote up!
Rostering issues are a big concern but these are more an issue for a strong JPA - which there is not. In the current EBA, rostering issues are almost totally outside the EBA and done by consultation between JPA and management.
I would prefer a "yes" vote to get the cash and then throw out much of the existing JPA and get some people in there who can achieve results with rostering. Basically it requires people willing to do the work and provide the solutions to the company (the company will not waste time nor effort on rostering for "lifestyle"). The JPA need to closely monitor the rosters and patterns to ensure equity, fatigue management, lifestyle etc. At present there is little if any of this occurring.
The JPA need a big shake-up. They supposedly represent around 400+ pilots but are more like a Friday night social poker club, fumbling and bluffing their way through. New Hires do not receive a scrap of information on the JPA, many do not know who is on the JPA, there is no published contact information, they provide no information except individual comments on a private website, no newsletters, no nothing. They often do not respond to emails (when you can find an email address that is). They ride on the company roadshows which shows no independence from the company viewpoint. They are ill-funded, ill-equipped, ill-informed, ill-experienced.
What legal opinion has the JPA independently sought about this EBA? The simple grammar and vagueness of the last EBA shows how amateurish and unprofessional the JPA can be when dealing with such important issues and how much it opens the door for a company "interpretation".
They are reticent when dealing with the company, they will not take them on. The sim payment fiasco is a prime example, they take the company view rather than one of the few clearly worded EBA clauses.
They (no doubt under company direction) seemed determined to sideline both the AFAP and AIPA with the current negotiations. They were held in secret with no chance for the pilots to seek AFAP/AIPA representation. They claim no one asked, pretty hard when you are not told of when and where negotiations were held
Lets hope there are no hidden traps or "interpretations" in the new EBA.