JQ EBA to sell out new hires
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JQ EBA to sell out new hires
Hear the pretty poor offer negotiated with the best of intentions by non professional negotiators from the JPA has been put to the troops.
Boys not happy. Deal sells out new hires in attempt to curb AWA's. Gents, AWA's are dead. There is no further threat of their use and JQ can't get enough people to join now on the crap conditions.
Throw it out, get professional help, start again and try not to negotiate the lowest cost deal again. Surely you guys deserve more.
If not now, when?
Boys not happy. Deal sells out new hires in attempt to curb AWA's. Gents, AWA's are dead. There is no further threat of their use and JQ can't get enough people to join now on the crap conditions.
Throw it out, get professional help, start again and try not to negotiate the lowest cost deal again. Surely you guys deserve more.
If not now, when?
Nunc est bibendum
Please, please, please can the J* pilots at least start talking to AIPA so that the two groups can be more fully equipped. All part of the GRADE process. Surely by now you've worked out that the QF crew aren't out to 'steal' your promotions and your future- and more importantly, nor can they- and are just after a deal that enables both groups to have a better future.
I can only hope I guess.
I can only hope I guess.
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Hostage negotiation is handled by highly trained professional negotiators.
EBA's in most cases are handled by highly trained professionals whom are unbiased and not suffering from stockholm syndrome.
If these guys are going to get anywhere near an offer even worthy of consideration then this one needs to be voted down without reservation.
New negotiations handled by professionals need to begin and a realistic offer drafted.
J* need to stand together on this and vote NO loud and clear, the time has defineately come.
If the angry Irishman can get a 84% package increase then im sure his crews are entitled to something more than the standard 3% benchmark.
This should be an entertaining post to say the least ......
EBA's in most cases are handled by highly trained professionals whom are unbiased and not suffering from stockholm syndrome.
If these guys are going to get anywhere near an offer even worthy of consideration then this one needs to be voted down without reservation.
New negotiations handled by professionals need to begin and a realistic offer drafted.
J* need to stand together on this and vote NO loud and clear, the time has defineately come.
If the angry Irishman can get a 84% package increase then im sure his crews are entitled to something more than the standard 3% benchmark.
This should be an entertaining post to say the least ......
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How about AIPA get off their butts and approach the J* pilot group - FAST!
On 20/12/07, the AIRC awarded AIPA coverage of QF group. What does this mean for J* pilots? J* pilots have heard NOTHING from AIPA.
The JPC and AFAP and J* management do not want AIPA, so AIPA must go and sell themselves to the J* pilot body.
I suggest AIPA write to EVERY J* pilot and explain what the AIRC decision means and what can be done about the proposed EBA before voting at the end of Jan.
If anyone from AIPA reads this, please be proactive and act now. Don't sit around expecting the J* pilot group to come knocking on your door - it won't happen!
On 20/12/07, the AIRC awarded AIPA coverage of QF group. What does this mean for J* pilots? J* pilots have heard NOTHING from AIPA.
The JPC and AFAP and J* management do not want AIPA, so AIPA must go and sell themselves to the J* pilot body.
I suggest AIPA write to EVERY J* pilot and explain what the AIRC decision means and what can be done about the proposed EBA before voting at the end of Jan.
If anyone from AIPA reads this, please be proactive and act now. Don't sit around expecting the J* pilot group to come knocking on your door - it won't happen!
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High Talker not worth mentioning what is on offer for it is complete crap 
and I hope the vote reflects that but after what happened last time I am not confident
, fellow Jetstar pilots lets show we actually have some balls this time and vote No
. This is the best time to send a STRONG message to the company.Surely we consider ourselves worth more than this
and I hope the vote reflects that but after what happened last time I am not confident, fellow Jetstar pilots lets show we actually have some balls this time and vote No. This is the best time to send a STRONG message to the company.Surely we consider ourselves worth more than this
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The feeling around the traps is that EBA will be voted down by at least 80-90% of the pilot group.....
The problem is that the JPA thinks this is a good deal........
However I can say that from all the guys I fly with we think is utter crap in todays enviroment....
A JPA member has said that the company has hundreds of people waiting to join and they have to get this done to help attract more, but I feel they are being led astray by Joyce and his henchmen...
If this is voted in (which it won't be) why would guys in GA go to JQ, when QF and VB are also hiring huge amounts of pilots and they can get paid more there.
I have joined AIPA and I hope when (this is voted down) they throw in the bin where it belongs, and then can represent us for a much better deal!!
The problem is that the JPA thinks this is a good deal........
However I can say that from all the guys I fly with we think is utter crap in todays enviroment....
A JPA member has said that the company has hundreds of people waiting to join and they have to get this done to help attract more, but I feel they are being led astray by Joyce and his henchmen...
If this is voted in (which it won't be) why would guys in GA go to JQ, when QF and VB are also hiring huge amounts of pilots and they can get paid more there.
I have joined AIPA and I hope when (this is voted down) they throw in the bin where it belongs, and then can represent us for a much better deal!!
Last edited by G Cantstandya; 7th Jan 2008 at 07:44.
Nunc est bibendum
I have joined AIPA and I hope they when this is thrown in the bin where it belongs, they can represent us for a much better deal!!
Just say 'no'.
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negotiators?
Do not be misled by loose descriptors such as 'professional' versus 'non-professional' and instead take a hard look at the talent pool on offer to do the negotiations.
During 2005 the AIPA Reform Group posited that professional negotiators would solve the pilot woes and hoofprints (what an apt callsign) even suggested that someone of Greg Combet's stature would fit the bill. Well, after heaping crap all over the EBA7 and previous negotiators the ARG swept into office and simply recycled a multitude of old cronies who struggle to do any better with L/H EBA8 (or any other issue). The AIPA membership have been deluged with myth and very little fact.
Forget those who with feint of pen and taint have sketched pictures suggesting they can save you. Instead, find yourselves some genuine talent that understands the regulatory enviroment and the IR perspective from each side of the table.
During 2005 the AIPA Reform Group posited that professional negotiators would solve the pilot woes and hoofprints (what an apt callsign) even suggested that someone of Greg Combet's stature would fit the bill. Well, after heaping crap all over the EBA7 and previous negotiators the ARG swept into office and simply recycled a multitude of old cronies who struggle to do any better with L/H EBA8 (or any other issue). The AIPA membership have been deluged with myth and very little fact.
Forget those who with feint of pen and taint have sketched pictures suggesting they can save you. Instead, find yourselves some genuine talent that understands the regulatory enviroment and the IR perspective from each side of the table.
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Hey Bongo, we have relatively stable rosters, sustainable working conditions and reasonable pay. In the most hostile IR environment that Australia has ever seen and under extreme pressure from an outdated management team, AIPA has held it's ground admirably. Don't let the irishman scare you. AIPA is the ONLY effective pilots association in the country. Be part of it or be left behind. It is as simple as that.
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I have now seen the offer put forward and some of the comments from a JPC member defending it.
Aparently J* has hordes of pilots waiting in the wings as it were, wishing to work for JQ under an AWA.
I'm not sure what they smoking during the whole negotiation process but it must have been plenty strong medicine.
I would have to agree with some of the previous comments that it is indeed complete crap and lacks anything of any substance.
If it wasn't a serious proposal you would laugh at it and I'm guessing there will be some stiffled laughs at the ensuing road shows where bags of fairy dust will be sprinkled around the rooms in an attempt to distract everyone from the harsh realities of the new sh*t sandwhich they are all being asked to take bite of.
The JPC should be ashamed in even presenting it, yes it really is that bad.
Aparently J* has hordes of pilots waiting in the wings as it were, wishing to work for JQ under an AWA.
I'm not sure what they smoking during the whole negotiation process but it must have been plenty strong medicine.
I would have to agree with some of the previous comments that it is indeed complete crap and lacks anything of any substance.
If it wasn't a serious proposal you would laugh at it and I'm guessing there will be some stiffled laughs at the ensuing road shows where bags of fairy dust will be sprinkled around the rooms in an attempt to distract everyone from the harsh realities of the new sh*t sandwhich they are all being asked to take bite of.
The JPC should be ashamed in even presenting it, yes it really is that bad.
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VB pilots voted the first spastic offer down by 97%. Hit'em hard the first time around fella's. Our second offer did involve better money and some (I say some lightly) better conditions. Its a massive pilot shortage out there guy's, don't blow the opportunity like VB pilots did. Make it hard for the HR people, make them earn their money. You deserve a big pay rise, and don't forget, your company has alot of aircraft coming and they need your skills. Get some professional HR people to represent you. VB pilots didn't and look what happened.
Posted elsewhere but I'll post it again...
To the LCC MUST = LOW PAY crowd...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am genuinely intrigued. How is it that some pilots can be cautious with weather forecasts, meticulous with the facts of an MEL and its application, sticklers for SOPs & procedures and yet buy management spin as if it's gospel every time?
In efforts to contain or lower costs an airline can:
- shorten the seat pitch to fit more passengers in,
- minimise the services offered (lounges, bag transfers, meals etc),
- make passengers pay for what they actually use,
- employ staff numbers commensurate with the reduced services it offers, and
- always keep pounding the line that it'll all be unviable if it pays pilots more.
What an airline can't escape is:
- fees charges associated with flying and infrastructure,
- fuel costs,
- maintenance costs(one hopes anyway!), and
- the need for pilots (among some other indispensible skill-sets).
How is it then, that;
- J*'s AJ, SW et al command world-leading packages for their job-descriptions and company size but their pilots accept the low-water-mark as 'necessary' for company viability?
- despite doing the same job as any others in RPT (ie on the pointy side of the flight-deck door) LCC pilots in Oz seem to accept the low-water-mark as 'necessary' for company viability?
- many pilots seem unable to seperate seat pitch, services and pay-for-extras in LCCs from the pivotal and unchanging obligations of the pilots (& engineers for that matter) whether LCC or 'full-service'.
I live in hope that improved situational awareness of pilot shortages, and the fact that NO airline can make money without pilots, will help the "we can't afford to be paid more or life won't be worth living" crowd wake up and more astutely value their services.
All the best to the sensible J* pilots who don't believe the offer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am genuinely intrigued. How is it that some pilots can be cautious with weather forecasts, meticulous with the facts of an MEL and its application, sticklers for SOPs & procedures and yet buy management spin as if it's gospel every time?
In efforts to contain or lower costs an airline can:
- shorten the seat pitch to fit more passengers in,
- minimise the services offered (lounges, bag transfers, meals etc),
- make passengers pay for what they actually use,
- employ staff numbers commensurate with the reduced services it offers, and
- always keep pounding the line that it'll all be unviable if it pays pilots more.
What an airline can't escape is:
- fees charges associated with flying and infrastructure,
- fuel costs,
- maintenance costs(one hopes anyway!), and
- the need for pilots (among some other indispensible skill-sets).
How is it then, that;
- J*'s AJ, SW et al command world-leading packages for their job-descriptions and company size but their pilots accept the low-water-mark as 'necessary' for company viability?
- despite doing the same job as any others in RPT (ie on the pointy side of the flight-deck door) LCC pilots in Oz seem to accept the low-water-mark as 'necessary' for company viability?
- many pilots seem unable to seperate seat pitch, services and pay-for-extras in LCCs from the pivotal and unchanging obligations of the pilots (& engineers for that matter) whether LCC or 'full-service'.
I live in hope that improved situational awareness of pilot shortages, and the fact that NO airline can make money without pilots, will help the "we can't afford to be paid more or life won't be worth living" crowd wake up and more astutely value their services.
All the best to the sensible J* pilots who don't believe the offer.
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Keg is right you guys need to unite.
VB boys voted the crap deal down to the tune of 97%. Same size plane - should be similar conditions.
Some lads at vb are doing pretty well these days...
VB boys voted the crap deal down to the tune of 97%. Same size plane - should be similar conditions.
Some lads at vb are doing pretty well these days...
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Nice thought, but whilst the current captain of AIPA keeps steering the boat there is no chance the majority of pilots at JQ would even entertain AIPA. But it's a nice thought keg.
If the EBA sells out new hires, then the following will occur:
Potential new hires will seek employment elsewhere.
F/O's can't be released for command training due to F/O shortage.
Fleet expansion grinds to a halt.
Any current F/O's would be mad to vote for that deal.
It sounds like a similar deal accepted by LH Cabin Crew and it has Oldmeadow's fingerprints all over it.
Potential new hires will seek employment elsewhere.
F/O's can't be released for command training due to F/O shortage.
Fleet expansion grinds to a halt.
Any current F/O's would be mad to vote for that deal.
It sounds like a similar deal accepted by LH Cabin Crew and it has Oldmeadow's fingerprints all over it.
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Is that the same captain who succesfully managed to gain the legal right to represent all QF group pilots rostov?
Much to the dismay of Qantas and Jetstar might I add!
What is it with guys like you mate?
Just what sort of an agenda are you pursuing anyway?
Jetstar pilots are highly trained professionals who are just as devoted to their career and professional standing as your nearest QF pilot. Nothing differentiates them except the pay and conditions. They too contribute to the GD and AJ caviar fund do they not?
I long for the day when I can pass by a Jetstar pilot in a terminal somewhere and actually stop and shake his hand knowing full well that we stand united as colleagues and brothers in arms. You heard me mate Brothers In Arms!
Because just like my little boy looks at me with pride and wonder when I wear my uniform so does the little boy of the Jetstar pilot and I'll be damned if I sit back and watch management systematically destroy the financial well being and security of either of our kids!
To guys like G.Cantstandya I say good on you mate and welcome aboard. You have my support and respect not as a QF pilot but as a man. You are a rare breed mate that I hope will become common place in the near future.
The time to unite is now and to hell with all the doomsayers and doubters.
Much to the dismay of Qantas and Jetstar might I add!
What is it with guys like you mate?
Just what sort of an agenda are you pursuing anyway?
Jetstar pilots are highly trained professionals who are just as devoted to their career and professional standing as your nearest QF pilot. Nothing differentiates them except the pay and conditions. They too contribute to the GD and AJ caviar fund do they not?
I long for the day when I can pass by a Jetstar pilot in a terminal somewhere and actually stop and shake his hand knowing full well that we stand united as colleagues and brothers in arms. You heard me mate Brothers In Arms!
Because just like my little boy looks at me with pride and wonder when I wear my uniform so does the little boy of the Jetstar pilot and I'll be damned if I sit back and watch management systematically destroy the financial well being and security of either of our kids!
To guys like G.Cantstandya I say good on you mate and welcome aboard. You have my support and respect not as a QF pilot but as a man. You are a rare breed mate that I hope will become common place in the near future.
The time to unite is now and to hell with all the doomsayers and doubters.
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tenretni maybe you should give up your job and go work overseas for a few years like many of the Jetstar boys had too. Then maybe you would appreciate why they came back on lower conditions. If QF sacked you all tomorrow you would tun back after a couple of years for a job on half the pay.
And yes there is many overseas joiners in the pipe line AND HOW WE WOULD LOVE awaS TO OPERATE FOR qf MAINLINE........
And yes there is many overseas joiners in the pipe line AND HOW WE WOULD LOVE awaS TO OPERATE FOR qf MAINLINE........