One pilot union......a step closer

[No Idea Either]

Golow,

Are you joking? Are there really pilots with that attitude in J*?. Nothing will change!

[Going Boeing]

I agree that the JPC struck a very poor deal on the widebody. Are you suggesting that AIPA would have negotiated THEM a better one?

Yes, Many phonecalls and emails were sent to RH offering advice, analysis and support. It appeared at the time that none of this was passed on to other members of the JPC. You would recall that with the first Jetstar deal (Impulse pilots to fly the A320) that Dixon held a loaded gun to the heads of the Impulse pilots - SIGN UP OR ELSE. there was no loaded gun when the widebody award was offered. More skilled industrial staff would have advised ways of achieving more. ie I sent an e-mail to RH asking him to consider separating the various types ie A330-200, B787-8 and B787-9. The extra efficiency of the B787-9 over the -8 which was more efficient than the A332 meant that J* Intl had a capacity to pay more on the more efficient types. Instead, the JPC meekly accepted one award (with relatively poor remuneration and conditions) for all widebody types that J* purchases - even A380's (tongue firmly planted in cheek).

Experienced industrial support would have resulted in a much better CA.

One of the concerns now is that as Jetstar is inexperienced in introducing a new type, the B787 aircraft may not come fitted with various items that will be required by mainline. The first 15 are -8's which eventually (when they are replaced in J* by -9's) will be transferred to mainline for primarily domestic/Tasman flying. Various items that are required by mainline will have to be fitted at great expense after transfer, whereas if they had been factory fitted, the cost would be considerably less. The QF GM Technical has been trying to get things factory fitted prior to delivery to J* but unfortunately, he is not receiving much support from his J* equivalent. I hope that the two groups can work together to get the best aircraft possible.

[Jetsbest]

To the LCC MUST = LOW PAY crowd...

I am genuinely intrigued. How is it that some pilots can be cautious with weather forecasts, meticulous with the facts of an MEL and its application, sticklers for SOPs & procedures and yet buy management spin as if it's gospel every time?

In efforts to contain or lower costs an airline can:
- shorten the seat pitch to fit more passengers in,
- minimise the services offered (lounges, bag transfers, meals etc),
- make passengers pay for what they actually use,
- employ staff numbers commensurate with the reduced services it offers, and
- always keep pounding the line that it'll all be unviable if it pays pilots more.

What an airline can't escape is:
- fees charges associated with flying and infrastructure,
- fuel costs,
- maintenance costs(one hopes anyway!), and
- the need for pilots (among some other indispensible skill-sets).

How is it then, that;
- J*'s AJ, SW et al command world-leading packages for their job-descriptions and company size but their pilots accept the low-water-mark as 'necessary' for company viability?
- despite doing the same job as any others in RPT (ie on the pointy side of the flight-deck door) LCC pilots in Oz seem to accept the low-water-mark as 'necessary' for company viability?
- many pilots seem unable to seperate seat pitch, services and pay-for-extras in LCCs from the pivotal and unchanging obligations of the pilots (& engineers for that matter) whether LCC or 'full-service'.

I live in hope that improved situational awareness of pilot shortages, and the fact that NO airline can make money without pilots, will help the "we can't afford to be paid more or life won't be worth living" crowd wake up and more astutely value their services.

[Capt Wally]

......."jetsbest"............couldn't agree with you more there on yr post, (well compossed actually) but it's time to awake from the dream yr in. !
Still I like a good bedtime story !

CW

[lambsie]

Going Boeing stated:
"Industrially, each pilot group will negotiate for their terms and conditions but will have the full industrial experience of AIPA to assist them in their negotiations so you won'r get mainline interfering with J*,Eastern, Sunstate negotiations."
AIPA COM is stacked with very senior -400 Captains whose sole aim in life is feathering the nests of senior -400 Captains. Current EBA negotiations are a secret as to the T&C's and in fact it looks like the 767 will be hung out to dry AGAIN with some sort of bizarre hybrid SH/LH domestic award. Don't anyone think there are professional negotiators in AIPA - they are just line pilots with an inflated sense of self importance.
We desperately need professional negotiators from the corporate sector, but alas, pilots know best.

[Going Boeing]

Lambsie, what your saying refers to mainline issues. I was trying to explain how the system would work for J*, Eastern & Sunstate - they basically will have control of their own negotiations with support from the industrial staff at AIPA. I understand the perception out there that -400 captains look after themselves at AIPA but the problem is that COM members from other fleets do not have enough time off to do all the work so it inevitably is left to -400 pilots. EBA's 5 & 6 did have B767 issues at the forefront of negotiations with significant protections built into the Certified Agreement wrt domestic flying. A lot of current pilots have forgotten how bad it was prior to those EBA's.

Professional negotiators is a great idea, except for the fact that it takes a long time for them to get their head around the implications of any changes on a flying profession. What seems acceptable to a desk bound professional may be totally unsuitable to a pilot. It's a much shorter time frame to train pilots in industrial negotiations (with industrial staff/lawyers present at negotiations). The current AIPA negotiators did have training with a professional prior to the commencement of negotiations with Oldmeadow's team of thugs and standard procedure is that no agreement is considered firm at the meetings so that they can return to the AIPA offices and dissect all the discussions at length to look for any hidden long term consequences.

I know, at times of major disenchantment with the direction that Dixon is taking this company, it is easy to say that AIPA is not doing enough for each group (eg B767) but that is simply falling for Oldmeadow's traps - we must remain united as a pilot group to achieve the best outcome.

[Capt Kremin]

Lambsie, you and everyone on the 767, plus everyone else who has the 767 factored into their career path will have a vote on the EBA before it becomes the contract won't you?

There has been enough silly rumour mongering over this EBA already. Why don't you wait and see what the guys come up with?

[lambsie]

Would it not be better to ask us what we'd like or what's important before we get to the voting stage? COM have had over a year to request or acknowledge input for the EBA8 negotiations and, zip, nothing. Waiting for the vote just drags out the process much longer than needed. It's ridiculous to expect -400 pilots to know what's going on, on the 767 or any other fleet for that matter.

[bb744]

Now now fellas settle down after all Lambsie knows best - after all he is a pilot. Refer to the last 3 words of post #26

[Keg]

Perhaps you didn't read the bursts last year lambsie that asked for pilot input as to what sorts of things they wanted out of the EBA. Input was requested to be emailed to the office as well as direct to the negotiating team. I spoke to one of the negotiators at some length about the issue and there wasn't much coming from the line apart from general concepts such as 'pay rise', 'more time off', etc. Anything more specific was considered as part of the grand scheme of things and factored into the discussions.

[Just Relaxin]

I can assure you that the AIPA EBA negotiators have the requisite knowledge and experience to negotiate on at least a level playing field if not with some advantage over the company negotiators. In fact one of them has in the past undertaken a course with the Institute of Arbitrators and Mediators of Australia (IAMA) as well as holding an LLB and an LLM from ANU which includes, amongst other subjects, Negotiation.

As far as lambsie stating that “…AIPA COM is stacked with very senior -400 Captains whose sole aim in life is feathering the nests of senior -400 Captains. Current EBA negotiations are a secret as to the T&C's and in fact it looks like the 767 will be hung out to dry AGAIN with some sort of bizarre hybrid SH/LH domestic award.” is absolute garbage and reflects that he has not spoken to any of the negotiators. You will find those that have taken some of their own time to do so have a completely different and far more balanced view of the direction of the negotiations.

[SIUYA]

Interesting thread! Maybe the doubters should have a look at:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=305752

Newsweek: Airlines Brace for Pilot Shortage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Airlines In The Brace Position
Air travel is booming as the world gets richer. But one issue looms: who will pilot all those planes?

By George Wehrfritz
NEWSWEEK
Updated: 12:46 PM ET Dec 15, 2007

...the pilot crisis is a global one. In a report issued in late November, the Geneva-based International Air Transport Association (IATA) announced that the industry would need some 17,000 new pilots annually over the next two decades to keep up with demand.

and:

Together, the two main airframe makers are expected to sell a record 2,100 planes worldwide by the time the 2007 books are closed.

Let's see.............2,100 two-crew airframes at 5 crews each is 21,000 pilots, so it's pretty close to the IATA figure of 17,000 new pilots annually.

Yes and with that sort of growth, then the comment by AIPA Solicitor Tony Macken of A. J. Macken & Co. is spot on, i.e., the decision by the Full Bench to give AIPA constitutional coverage of all airline pilots employed in the Qantas Group DOES indeed modernise the industrial coverage of Australian airline pilots.

While the demand for pilots here in OZ isn't anywhere near 21,000 or 17,000 per annum, it's still going to be a respectable number I reckon. So, if as Mr Macken has pointed out, that the legal position of the industrial coverage of airline pilots has now caught up with the industrial reality, then it seems it's almost certainly also reached the economic reality of demand for pilots exceeding supply, and as such, improvements in pilots' T&Cs now seems inevitable.

Still not a believer? Have another look at the same NEWSWEEK article..............

...pilot pay keeps rising. After a two-year negotiation, Hong Kong's Dragonair offered its pilots a 20 percent raise in mid-December, affirming that pilots are in the driver's seat.

Pity I retired a couple of years ago!

May the force be with you! Keep the faith and T&Cs will get better this coming year.

Merry Xmas all.

[amos2]

Tony Macken?... of A J Macken and Co?.... Representing the AIPA?

Strewth, do some homework guys!...like back to 1972!!

Get real, get good representation...not that turkey!!

Macken will screw you, believe me!!

Research Australian aviation industrial history!

Go back to 69' and start from there!

You will be surprised!

Mackens history, like Tony North (remember that name?)...

is quite simple...

you get screwed, I make a pile of dough and progress through the judicial ranks, at your expense!!

[PlankBlender]

merge you unions, or pilots of oz unite

Anyone who knows a bit about the partly very efficient union setups in Europe, cannot help but shake his or her head at the fragmentation and inefficiency of pilot organisations in this country!

Maybe there wasn't a point in the past because the pilots had no real punch anyway in a market flooded with starry-eyed Howard Hughes wannabes.. BUT: since the supply and demand of drivers is clearly changing around the world, and no matter how much some people try to broadcast the contrary, this change WILL be felt in Australia by all parties over the coming years.

Hence there is a once in a lifetime chance, a limited window of opportunity, to get set up as a community so the pilots' interests can be looked after properly in those interesting years to come!

I can only plead with the various parties trying to better aviators' lots: Sit down to talk between yourselves, check your egos at the door, merge into ONE union, and if the experience in the rest of the world is anything to go by, we're all going to be better off no matter what the rank, age, or employer.

To get things started, I propose a poll amongst pilots. Given pilots are on the whole a clever and educated bunch , I should think there would be an overwhelming majority for such a move. Needless to say this would create a dynamic energy that would be felt and heard all over the country, and might even (okay, dreaming now) convince the public that in order to save the essential regional transport infrastructure in this country, one might have to pay 109 bucks instead of 99 on a given route.. (dream mode off)

What are we waiting for?