Air NZ and Paraparaumu Airport
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Air NZ and Paraparaumu Airport
Owners of Paraparaumu Airport were knocked back in their proposals before a planning tribunal the other day to redevelop the airport with a large common user terminal for Bombardier Q300 flights to Auckland etc.
My question is where does this leave both the airport and Air NZ ?
Also Associated Aviation operated a twin Cessna service to Auckland once. What became of that service and was it a pressurised twin ?
My question is where does this leave both the airport and Air NZ ?
Also Associated Aviation operated a twin Cessna service to Auckland once. What became of that service and was it a pressurised twin ?
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Associated used a C421 on that run for number years (so yes was pressurised). I couldnt tell you how successful it was.
Poor old Paraparaumu airport! It will finish its days as a F**king shopping mall.
Poor old Paraparaumu airport! It will finish its days as a F**king shopping mall.
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Errr. alright then!
Not currently in NZ, but having had a few conversations with Mr Robinson, I can assure you that he doesn't give up that easily. The problem is that the local nimby brigade are quite noisy, and the new Mayor/Council would appear to be a little less sympathetic to his cause. The local tenants haven't been very helpful either, and the flying clubs seem intent on shooting themselves in their feet.
Hopefully Noel Robinson will prevail, because the alternative is 100 acres of houses and light industrial units.
I suspect the owners of the Otaki strip are making plans to provide an alternative, just in case PP does become a suburb...
Not currently in NZ, but having had a few conversations with Mr Robinson, I can assure you that he doesn't give up that easily. The problem is that the local nimby brigade are quite noisy, and the new Mayor/Council would appear to be a little less sympathetic to his cause. The local tenants haven't been very helpful either, and the flying clubs seem intent on shooting themselves in their feet.
Hopefully Noel Robinson will prevail, because the alternative is 100 acres of houses and light industrial units.
I suspect the owners of the Otaki strip are making plans to provide an alternative, just in case PP does become a suburb...
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remoak....forwarded that piece to the ol man in Raumati for verification.....he also agrees ......only his words were a little more "descriptive".....but all in all the same
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Go back to the time of the original sale of the airport by the Government.
It would be an accurate description to say that the Aero Club, Flying Schools and associated engineering outfits were stabbed in the back during the course of the tender process. rather than "
"and the flying clubs seem intent on shooting themselves in their feet"
Mr Robinson may have lofty dreams about the future role of the airport, at this time it does not generate enough revenue to even provide any meaningfull maintenance, there is no way he will get a return on the millions invested to retain it as an airport, he is after all a property developer, not an airport operator.
The statements he makes about creating some 6,000 new jobs if he gets his way with the airport, many regard as pipe dream stuff, and with the traffic problems already occuring, such an increase in population would not be able to be supported by the present infrastructure. It would lead to traffic congestion problems of major proportions. Unless one stands to make money out of these deals why would the locals support a scheme that will have such an negative impact on their lifestyle???
It would be an accurate description to say that the Aero Club, Flying Schools and associated engineering outfits were stabbed in the back during the course of the tender process. rather than "
"and the flying clubs seem intent on shooting themselves in their feet"
Mr Robinson may have lofty dreams about the future role of the airport, at this time it does not generate enough revenue to even provide any meaningfull maintenance, there is no way he will get a return on the millions invested to retain it as an airport, he is after all a property developer, not an airport operator.
The statements he makes about creating some 6,000 new jobs if he gets his way with the airport, many regard as pipe dream stuff, and with the traffic problems already occuring, such an increase in population would not be able to be supported by the present infrastructure. It would lead to traffic congestion problems of major proportions. Unless one stands to make money out of these deals why would the locals support a scheme that will have such an negative impact on their lifestyle???
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The original sale had nothing to do with Noel Robinson. That was a stitch-up between the then-MP for Ohariu, the second-most-recent owner of the airport, and various elements of the KCDC. It was a classic example of the Conservative old boys network at it's finest. Sure, the tenants got screwed, but that is all ancient history now. It is what they are doing now that is important.
With Robinsons plan (the only viable plan, by the way), there has to be an offset between retaining the airport and developing parts of the airport that aren't needed for flight ops. That was obvious from the beginning.
What the flying clubs have done is attempt to mess up Mr Robinsons plans by arguing for the retention of the short runway, amongst other things. I can understand them not wanting to lose it, but the fact remains that it is little-used and unnecessary for 95% of the time. In all my years of flying out of PP, I probably only used it 5-10 times.
Issues like extra traffic are actually non-issues. The Western Link road will more than cater for any increase in traffic.
Leaving aside for a moment the fact that most of the locals you refer to are thoroughly selfish individuals who would oppose anything that in any way impinged on their supposed rights to a particular lifestyle - despite the fact that they chose to live near an active airport - the fact is that if the Robinson plan fails, the airport will become a housing estate. If that happens, the resulting congestion and stress on the infrastructure will be many times greater than they would be if the airport was retained.
I'm no particular fan of Noel Robinson, but the fact remains that if he fails, the airport will be gone. I would rather have a smaller airport, than no airport at all.
The Aero Club doesn't get that, but then it is one of the most poorly run operations I have ever seen, so I'm not surprised.
Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your plan for retaining the airport and satisfying the NIMBYs at the same time...
With Robinsons plan (the only viable plan, by the way), there has to be an offset between retaining the airport and developing parts of the airport that aren't needed for flight ops. That was obvious from the beginning.
What the flying clubs have done is attempt to mess up Mr Robinsons plans by arguing for the retention of the short runway, amongst other things. I can understand them not wanting to lose it, but the fact remains that it is little-used and unnecessary for 95% of the time. In all my years of flying out of PP, I probably only used it 5-10 times.
Issues like extra traffic are actually non-issues. The Western Link road will more than cater for any increase in traffic.
why would the locals support a scheme that will have such an negative impact on their lifestyle???
I'm no particular fan of Noel Robinson, but the fact remains that if he fails, the airport will be gone. I would rather have a smaller airport, than no airport at all.
The Aero Club doesn't get that, but then it is one of the most poorly run operations I have ever seen, so I'm not surprised.
Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your plan for retaining the airport and satisfying the NIMBYs at the same time...
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The proposal to shift Rnwy 11/29 west wards to reduce the Helipro (Calibration Flight's) hangar to dust, just invites problems.
Leave 11/29 in place and if necessary knock down the hangar.
The Resource Management Act (RMA) allows you to continue current use. Shifting 11/29 westward shifts the approach path over residential areas which were never previously below the flightpath so instantly Noel Robinson gave himself a swag of new enemies.
Stick with the current 11/29
Create an industrial estate at the west side of 16/34.
Offer to pay for the gliding club to re-establish at Otaki. That solves a swag of issues.
If you want to be a successful developer then you have to be a problem solver... Not a maker.
Leave 11/29 in place and if necessary knock down the hangar.
The Resource Management Act (RMA) allows you to continue current use. Shifting 11/29 westward shifts the approach path over residential areas which were never previously below the flightpath so instantly Noel Robinson gave himself a swag of new enemies.
Stick with the current 11/29
Create an industrial estate at the west side of 16/34.
Offer to pay for the gliding club to re-establish at Otaki. That solves a swag of issues.
If you want to be a successful developer then you have to be a problem solver... Not a maker.
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Can someone tell me what years Associated used to fly the AKL-PPQ run and why it stopped please ?
Anyone know about the patronage ?
Air NZ are talking two Q300 flights per day.
Anyone know about the patronage ?
Air NZ are talking two Q300 flights per day.
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How does moving 11/29 westwards put the flightpath over houses that were previously not affected? I haven't seen the plan, but moving a westerly runway further to the west won't do that.
I still think it is unnecessary. There are plenty of single coastal runways around the country, they seem to manage OK.
You can't establish an industrial estate on the western side of 16/34, that put it in amongst residential areas.
Associated operated the 421 for quite a few years from the mid '80s. They eventually replaced it with a J31 leased from Origin. The J31 lasted a bit less than a year, from memory. There were some operational problems, and it was never well advertised or marketed. I think it stopped in 92 or 93.
It would probably work well now, the catchment area is a lot bigger these days, and many people north of, say, Tawa would much rather drive to PP in the morning than struggle into Wellington through all the traffic. If it was marketed properly, it could work well.
I still think it is unnecessary. There are plenty of single coastal runways around the country, they seem to manage OK.
You can't establish an industrial estate on the western side of 16/34, that put it in amongst residential areas.
Associated operated the 421 for quite a few years from the mid '80s. They eventually replaced it with a J31 leased from Origin. The J31 lasted a bit less than a year, from memory. There were some operational problems, and it was never well advertised or marketed. I think it stopped in 92 or 93.
It would probably work well now, the catchment area is a lot bigger these days, and many people north of, say, Tawa would much rather drive to PP in the morning than struggle into Wellington through all the traffic. If it was marketed properly, it could work well.
I have been following the developments at PPQ with interest. However, before Air NZ will be able to utilise it, there must be some improvements. 16/34 only recently received a long-overdue repaint, and there are still stones all over the place. The bar with regards to airport maintainance will need to be raised before a Q300 touches down there.
Another problem is traffic. The circuit is already congested at busy times, and I can only forsee this getting worse. If ANZ wish to operate from PP, there will need to be at least a UNICOM set up, if not a control service for the busy periods.
As for runway 11/29, don't shift it, don't close it, don't fix what isn't broken. It is good for light GA in westerlies, and anything bigger can still use 16/34 in everything but the worst crosswind conditions.
My 2c...
Another problem is traffic. The circuit is already congested at busy times, and I can only forsee this getting worse. If ANZ wish to operate from PP, there will need to be at least a UNICOM set up, if not a control service for the busy periods.
As for runway 11/29, don't shift it, don't close it, don't fix what isn't broken. It is good for light GA in westerlies, and anything bigger can still use 16/34 in everything but the worst crosswind conditions.
My 2c...
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AA used a couple of 402's back in the 80's before the 421's came on the scene and I think a 310. It was by all accounts a profitable operation. I used it a few times and from memory about 1.5 hrs, beat the hell out of the hours drive to Welly or even worse the 12 hours by train. I still remember Harry Jenkins letting us have the right seat, the only draw back was the passive smoking we had to endure, those were the days
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Reply to Remoak
Thanks for the update Remoak.
The shift of 11/29 results in the buldozing of the big Helipro hangar for a grass runway (presumably to satisfy the gliding fraternity).
Have a look at this link to the plan:
http://paraparaumuairport.co.nz/?page_id=3
Whether or not you think an industrial estate west of 16/34 is viable that is already in the plan.
Shifting 11/29 westwards does put multi-million dollar houses along the beach front under a new flightpath. That immediately causes conflict with the RMA.
Sticking with the existing 11/29 runway avoids this conflict.
As for just having a single runway PPQ gets significant coastal onshore breezes so that 11/29 is in effect the crosswind runway.
The shift of 11/29 results in the buldozing of the big Helipro hangar for a grass runway (presumably to satisfy the gliding fraternity).
Have a look at this link to the plan:
http://paraparaumuairport.co.nz/?page_id=3
Whether or not you think an industrial estate west of 16/34 is viable that is already in the plan.
Shifting 11/29 westwards does put multi-million dollar houses along the beach front under a new flightpath. That immediately causes conflict with the RMA.
Sticking with the existing 11/29 runway avoids this conflict.
As for just having a single runway PPQ gets significant coastal onshore breezes so that 11/29 is in effect the crosswind runway.
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Hey celco.... Jenkin's smoking is legendary.
My mate owns ZK-CGI. He had a fuel leak in the cockpit, so he plackarded it with No Smoking.
Jenkins hopped in and smoked like a chimney amongst the avgas fumes. My buddy now refuses to have anything to do with Russell.
Anybody remember roughly when the Associated service to AKL ceased ?
Anybody know why ?
My mate owns ZK-CGI. He had a fuel leak in the cockpit, so he plackarded it with No Smoking.
Jenkins hopped in and smoked like a chimney amongst the avgas fumes. My buddy now refuses to have anything to do with Russell.
Anybody remember roughly when the Associated service to AKL ceased ?
Anybody know why ?
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About 1990 when Air NSN started their SA 227 service, PP-WU-AA-WU-WN. RI & RJ cut a deal (to boring to describe here) which saw AA operate PP-NS-PP and maybe some other destinations as well for a short time.
Think they may have started up again sometime after NSN pulled out for a while
Think they may have started up again sometime after NSN pulled out for a while
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Ah now I see why I was confused... 11/29 moves south rather than west. Not a good idea. Thanks for the link, I'll study up on it.
I know about the onshore breezes (I've been flying out of PP for about 28 years, on and off). It is pretty unusual for the crosswind to get high enough to require 11/29... if it's that bad, most of the lighties are parked in the hangar. Seems to be a lot less flying these days.
I don't want to see the airport changed at all, other than by way of improvement, but the commercial reality is that change will inevitably happen. Locals have to make a choice between Mr Robinsons airport, or 1000 new houses and industrial units. Unless, of course, another billionaire comes along...
I know about the onshore breezes (I've been flying out of PP for about 28 years, on and off). It is pretty unusual for the crosswind to get high enough to require 11/29... if it's that bad, most of the lighties are parked in the hangar. Seems to be a lot less flying these days.
I don't want to see the airport changed at all, other than by way of improvement, but the commercial reality is that change will inevitably happen. Locals have to make a choice between Mr Robinsons airport, or 1000 new houses and industrial units. Unless, of course, another billionaire comes along...
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Thanks nex and slamer...
Noel Robinson still has to satisfy both the local community and planning tribunals. I wonder if that can be achieved without shunting the runway over ?
What if he attracted a Part 125 airline instead of Air NZ or in addition to...?
Would landing fees from increased frequency of flights go towards offsetting development costs ?
What if the proposed big terminal were at the eastern extremity of Kapiti Road (town end of 11/29) ?
That could free up that corner where the gliding club currently operate and they could be paid off to shift to Otaki.
Hey slamer so it was the politics of code share which killed off the PPQ-AKL service ?
Sounds like the load factors were quite good then ?
Air NZ propose a 50 seater northbound twice daily. Reckon they could fill that many seats based on the old days ?
Noel Robinson still has to satisfy both the local community and planning tribunals. I wonder if that can be achieved without shunting the runway over ?
What if he attracted a Part 125 airline instead of Air NZ or in addition to...?
Would landing fees from increased frequency of flights go towards offsetting development costs ?
What if the proposed big terminal were at the eastern extremity of Kapiti Road (town end of 11/29) ?
That could free up that corner where the gliding club currently operate and they could be paid off to shift to Otaki.
Hey slamer so it was the politics of code share which killed off the PPQ-AKL service ?
Sounds like the load factors were quite good then ?
Air NZ propose a 50 seater northbound twice daily. Reckon they could fill that many seats based on the old days ?
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Kiwiguy........ I think it was part of the old mans checklist gear-up, flaps 0, light bunger use to crack me up but .. with a full load of pax not a worry
I don't remember the rego of the two 402's but I did come across their carcasses a few years back parked in a graveyard at magenta in noumea, still with the same livery, one green one blue.
I always wondered why they stopped the AKL thing there has to be a market for it with the right equipment, maybe it was the J31 that stuffed it who knows maybe some ex AA guys can give us the good oil
I don't remember the rego of the two 402's but I did come across their carcasses a few years back parked in a graveyard at magenta in noumea, still with the same livery, one green one blue.
I always wondered why they stopped the AKL thing there has to be a market for it with the right equipment, maybe it was the J31 that stuffed it who knows maybe some ex AA guys can give us the good oil
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So if it got as far as Origin Pacific putting on a J31 then perhaps it was the retraction in routes and services when Qantas pulled the code share with Origin?
Remember origin were flying to Invercargill and Dunedin at one point, using everything from J31, J32, J41, Dash 8 and even the ATR-72-200. All that disappeared so then it was not the service, but rather Origin Pacific which spelled the end for AKL-PPQ ?
Dave Collier told me they were just three Jetstreams short of overwhelming Air NZ domestic services at their height... Interesting thought.
Wonder if those 402s were the same pair which hung out with Capital Aviation in the 70s at Wellington Aero Club ?
Maybe RJ decided that if they wouldn't allow smoking on NAC then he'd start his own airline ???
Remember origin were flying to Invercargill and Dunedin at one point, using everything from J31, J32, J41, Dash 8 and even the ATR-72-200. All that disappeared so then it was not the service, but rather Origin Pacific which spelled the end for AKL-PPQ ?
Dave Collier told me they were just three Jetstreams short of overwhelming Air NZ domestic services at their height... Interesting thought.
Wonder if those 402s were the same pair which hung out with Capital Aviation in the 70s at Wellington Aero Club ?
Maybe RJ decided that if they wouldn't allow smoking on NAC then he'd start his own airline ???
RJ and Associated
Heh, heh... been reading these posts with some amusement.
Did my PPL with Associated at Paraparaumu... RJ was chief instructor.
Tough old bastard... and he'd flagged the smoking by then, so was even grumpier... but also gave you a darn good slap if you did anything stupid... made you a very cautious and methodical pilot.
Did my PPL with Associated at Paraparaumu... RJ was chief instructor.
Tough old bastard... and he'd flagged the smoking by then, so was even grumpier... but also gave you a darn good slap if you did anything stupid... made you a very cautious and methodical pilot.