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Flightwatch – 27 VHF outlets being closed

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Flightwatch – 27 VHF outlets being closed

Old 13th Nov 2007, 22:10
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If someone can get hold of the order or direction given by the Minister to Airservices (as per the article in The Australian), can they publish it here on PPRuNe? It should hardly be a document covered by national secrecy!
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Old 13th Nov 2007, 22:43
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Dick also worthy of mention again is that there is no staff to run these flight watch frequencies when they are retained. ATC doing the full flight watch function is already occurring Do a quick notam search and you will find one that lists all of the flight watch VHFs as not available due staff shortage. This notam has been out for many weeks now. AsA really have ballsed this one up and someone MUST be held accountable for it. The gave VR a while ago and by stealth have pushed the function onto ATC due staff shortage.

So when/if AsA do as they are told they will just roll back to what we do now which is provide flight watch from ATC positions which is what this whole thing is trying to stop. Wouldn't this be illegal industrially? Making a person redundant when a requirement for their position still exists and there is noone else to do it? Hopefully you can do something about that as well.
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Old 13th Nov 2007, 23:07
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Tobzalp, you make a very important point. Can I ask here if there are people who have taken voluntary redundancy, but could come back in an emergency and provide the Flightwatch service? I know this is generally not allowed under voluntary redundancy agreements, however in the case of an emergency (and surely this is a safety emergency) the Government can make any decision it likes.

It appears that only about 5 staff would be necessary to monitor the 27 dedicated Flightwatch frequencies. Obviously they could be Air Traffic Control licence holders or Flight Service licence holders. In the short term they could even be professional pilots – for this is not rocket science. Flightwatch does not provide a separation or a traffic information service, it basically relays important safety information that is on a screen in NAIPS, which a professional pilot can obtain anyway.

What I’m basically saying is let’s think laterally about this.

Airservices will probably say there is nothing they can do now because there are no staff available. Can we on PPRuNe come up with an alternative? There is lots of expertise here. Surely there must be some retired people who could provide this service for the next few weeks while the issues are resolved.

I look forward to advice from anyone who has any knowledge.
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Old 13th Nov 2007, 23:20
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Tch, Tch, Tch..............

Well Dick,

Just what did you expect after your initial efforts....12/12/1991, 11/11/1993,...etc etc

After deleting services to / for VFR aircraft in '91/92, then further 'rationalising' services in '93, we now have the result of the 'natural progression' of those decisions.

Unfortunately, most of today's aviators will have no idea of what I am talking about - but the more mature of us are certainly very much aware!

'Flight Service' in 'The Old Days' certainly was 'Top Heavy' ala the Public Service system of the times...but...after several 'reconstructions' / 'rationalisations' etc following the GBE (Govt Business Enterprise) model of the times, we evolved into quite a lean and rather efficient operation - especially following the adoption of satellite technology which allowed the closure of all of those 'inefficient' outstations...

FIS, which included DTI OCTA, as well as all forms of weather, NOTAM, NAVAID, Flight Following information etc etc was
'par for the course' , and efficiently delivered.

From memory - Perth FSC alone went from some 130 staff to prior to '91, to around 35 or so just prior to our 'final demise' when we were STILL delivering
a FULL SERVICE!

THATS EFFICIENCY FOR YA!

And now, for the sake of a measly $500K - which is really bugger-all in the overall scheme of things, the economic rationalists have further dismantled what used to be a fine, well run, and SAFE system!

Reap what YOU sowed!!

I too am deeply disappointed - I still have my CPL, but don't do much in commercial these days - but I have learned to adopt 'new' ideas and leave my SARTIME with 'MUM', and get my weather via my MOBILE PHONE!!

That way, it doesn't cost ASA ANYTHING, I don't clutter up busy ATC freqs, and I get the level of service I expect!!

CHEERS

p.s. Once again, many thanks for the redundo opportunity - I do now get the chance to persue my other interests.......

p.p.s. The post by 'Former AusFICer' simply told it like it IS!

NO CONSULTATION etc etc - just like the 'OLD DAYS' when we even then presented with a 'fait accompli' and expectd to 'wear it'.....

Well, it is now a matter of history that FS took the then ASA to the Industrial Tribunal 5 times over lack of consultation - and won our case 5 times - so what has changed in their thinking????

N O T H I N G ! ! !

Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 13th Nov 2007 at 23:32.
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Old 13th Nov 2007, 23:20
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Probably plenty of CPL's looking for a job, even if its 3 days a week part time. Allowing them to still fly also.

I am sure they could be up to speed in less time than most would think possible if they are bright enough!

This might be an overly simplistic view and get shot down by the ATC'ers.....

J
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Old 13th Nov 2007, 23:32
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Yes Minister!

Dick - Ya gotta remember the Minister is a Dick H. Unfortunately, it is possible he might be replaced by an even larger double Dick H. called Mumbles.
Last year, an old friend found himself in a situation wherein his medical costs as a PPL doubled 'cos the department's medico demanded annuals. He didn't have a problem with the medical requirement, but objected to having to pay the admin costs of having the medical stamped at the department. He sent a letter to the current Dick H., who got one of his junior clerks to reply with a three page letter explaining why cost recovery was a wonderful way to enhance aviatoin safety. Apparently no mention or response to the request to reduce this admin cost was included in the reply.
Let's face it, since Charlie (Jones), the aviation administration in this country has been nothing short of crap.
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Old 13th Nov 2007, 23:48
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Ex FSO GRIFFO, point taken and I accept the criticism. However at least when you fly today in Class G radar airspace, you can talk directly to an air traffic controller and get a radar service (workload permitting). In the old days, the Flight Service Officer wasn’t allowed to sit in front of a radar screen, so there was no chance of using the advantages of radar. Therefore, I think we have moved slightly forward.

I have always agreed that the old mandatory full position VFR service was great, however I was concerned about how the VFR pilots would pay for this. If you remember, there was something like 26 cents per litre on Avgas – that would have meant Avgas would be even more expensive than it is today.

I’m sure I’ve made mistakes in the past, but let’s at least work together on this present situation. Just about everyone agrees that we should have a separate Flightwatch system which is independent. As stated previously, we can afford this and there is no reason for us to have a lesser service than countries like New Zealand.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 01:10
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Dick,

I can understand that this issue is of significant concern to Pilots as it is to ATC's also, a controllers workload increases significantly when controlled traffic requires off track diversions & holding due weather to the point where VFR requests are likely to be put on hold until all other actions are complete. Unfortunately I too feel that the horse has bolted and the fact that AsA need some ex flightwatch freq's to make the Nov 22 airspace changes leads me to believe little can be done now.
However an issue of greater concern to most controllers and I would think Pilot's who are aware of the full ramifications of the decision is AsA's break provisions where on nightshifts unrated controllers monitor airspace without actually providing a control service for up to 20 min at a time. This means any requests including level changes / off track wx diversions will be told to standby until the rated controller returns. Heaven help you if you have a mayday during this time. To make matters worse pilots aren't informed when these breaks take place so they will still be of the belief that they are receiving a full control service when that is not the case.
Controllers weren't consulted on this decision so I doubt it was put to industry either. Just another example of AsA management being blinded by the almighty dollar.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 01:27
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I can't help but feel that there is something else happening here, and that people like me are going to get the wrong end of the stick again. We've convinced Vaile to stop the Flightwatch transmitters from being shut down (presuming the Shadow Minister agrees). Now AsA will say that the directive from the minister will do them out of $500K and the government (regardless of which one) will have to allow them to recover the cost. In line with the 'user pays' policy (which Labor won't roll back), an extra charge will be levied on PPL for the privilege of having a Flightwatch service we don't use.

Yes, I know that commercial flights use it too, but they have the luxury of claiming it all on tax. Those of us who pay out of our own pockets are flying less and less because we have to pay so much to the government (which AsA and CASA are still!)

Sorry, I keep forgetting that most of the people on this forum are CPLs or controllers who don't have to pay for their flying and therefore wouldn't understand the concept.

Walrus
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 01:49
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Walrus 7, you have just made out the case of why it should be properly consulted with the industry, and why a paper should have been prepared showing the pros, the cons and the cost.

Also, if Flightwatch provides a safety benefit and has a cost, it is very simple to do a cost benefit safety study (which can be totally transparent and public) to convince people in the industry of the Airservices point of view.

Driscoll, your post is simply mind boggling! If what you are saying is true – and I have no reason to doubt it – it is criminal that the rated controller leaves the console for up to 20 minutes and doesn’t inform the pilots in the controlled airspace which is being serviced.

I wonder if the Board members of Airservices Australia realise the implications of that? As someone recently mentioned, they probably don’t read PPRuNe or even know what it is.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 03:19
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ATC night staffing thread

RHS, here is a thread on ATC night shift staffing, see post 13 for the 'official docs' http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=297788
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 03:43
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One of my first experiences with Flight Watch in Australia involved calling up on VHF looking for information on a line of thunderstorms so I could plan the next 150nm routing and refile my return flight plan via a new routing clear of the Wx. For several minutes there was no reply from FW then Brisbane centre came back to me asking how he could help. I found out the hard way that Flight Watch in Australia does not have NeXRad/Wx radar.

The pursuing dialogue with Brisbane Centre to get the info I needed took several minutes (ie cell movements, speed, echo tops etc, their position relative to specific airways/navaids). I got the information I needed but the time spent distracting the controller from an already busy work environment with the widespread foul Wx I thought was completely unnecessary if only Flight Watch had Wx radar like they do in the US.

As a rule I will always try and get in-flight Wx info from sources other than a controller, especially when they are busy. Now one of those sources appears to be in jeopardy and as my own experience of getting Wx info from ATC shows, when we need it the most, is when ATC can least afford to provide it considering their increased workload.

I note with interest that Dick Smith is putting up his own hard earned cash in support of an issue that is also supported by controllers. Once again Dick you have my support and gratitude for your efforts and it appears you have the same from our controllers.

AFAP, JPC, AIPA, your turn.

MJ

Last edited by mjbow2; 14th Nov 2007 at 03:56.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 03:43
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Griffo ..

still #1 ticket holder of the PH Misogynist Society you old reprobate
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 07:09
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A tale of two press releases

Something is bugging me about the releases from Airservices and Vaile.

As reported by the Australian, Vaile simply said don’t turn off the transmitter sites until after “a review” and “just for the duration of the election”.

Which means only 10 days time in reality.

The Australian also reports that the pause is so that Vaile “can get more advice from Airservices Australia about their decision”.

We know that Airservices Australia has no plans to turn all the VHF off until just before Christmas and Flightwatch will be ‘ghosted’ until the turn off date by ausfic.

Bingo! That’s IT!!! There is going to be absolutely NO CHANGE!!!

Everyone has put out press releases and therefore they look good for the constituents but nothing is actually going to veer from the present course.

What a mob!!!
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 08:29
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Dick; I wonder if it would be worth raising this issue with The 7.30 Report and/or some of the commercial TV 'current affair' shows.

Obviously, if the observation by Jacko is correct and the decision has already been taken, the only thing that will obtain a backdown would be public pressure via a fairly large media campaign.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 09:04
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Flightwatch Console

Trolling the Airservices Website and I found a picture of the actual Flightwatch VHF console in operation.

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...ausfic/fwd.asp

Not what a I'd call an extravagant setup but seems functional
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 10:36
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Angry NOTE the username

Hate to say it, but once again I will for those that didn't take note the first time.

BEGONE TFN, and all the problems created since your arrival can be rectified by someone competent.

Despite what TFN thought of BS and his efforts, he has nothing on BS, or Buck or .... gee there's been a few now.

Maybe we need someone who really cares about aviation to stick around and actually add value to ASA not suck it out!
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 10:45
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Also consider the numerous, currently Expat Australian ATC's that applied for Australian ATC positions during the Global Search for ATC's that were told that they were 'unsuitable' candidates. After recent substantial overseas ATC payrises they might be a little happier now with being unsuitable.

Airservices staff planning has been poorly managed for many years now for three main reasons:

1. The software/excel spreadsheet used to calculate required FTE's (full time equivalents) to run ATC and FW functions was fundamentally flawed in that it failed to take into consideration things such as Long Service Leave, training, pending retirements etc. etc.

2. The Managers that rigidly stuck to this application were and probably still are told about this and then stick their heads back into the sand where their productivity bonuses are buried.

3. Any Managers or staff that are truely bright and very competent, and there are quite a few of them, are generally bad mouthed into falling into line with the incompetents or end up resigning so that they can actually fulfiull their potential.

This incompetence spreads deep and wide within the organisation and leads to situations such as the current accelerating staffing issue and others such as this - there are many, many others (is the MATS rewrite finished yet?).

I applaud Dick Smith and all other contributers to this discussion and hope that some positive changes can be made.

Slightly off topic, so I am sorry.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 10:46
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And another thing;

Airservices CEO, Greg Russell, states that for “flight information and alerting services” there are only 50 calls per day made to Flightwatch.

But we know that there are many many times that number of calls made to Flightwatch VHF in the course of a day.

What accounts for the disparity?

Surely Airservices would not leave themselves so open like this? So WTF is going on?



Eureka! SARTIMES!

Airservices is going to do away with SARTIMES!

Yes, that has to be it.

Airservices will remove the separate Flightwatch VHF network thus shifting the in-flight responsibility totally onto the ATCs and then ATCs will force sartimes out of the system entirely.

Blackadder would see that as a cunning cunning plan I’m sure.

There is no charge for sartimes (unlike DTI hey Dick!) so why not “terminate with extreme prejudice” the whole sartime system.

Yes ladies and gentlemen, we are only seeing the opening salvos of a significant raft of changes to come.
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Old 14th Nov 2007, 19:19
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Problem Not Solved

This latest flurry of press relaese and counter press release has acheived nothing. As JACKO mentioned, as directed, ASA will not turn off the transmitters until they have advised the Govt that they have conducted a review. "Gee we look good now guys". ASA senior management are champions of the weasel word and their lateset bucket of spin is proof in point. They must be sitting back in their offices patting each other on the back congratulating themselves on how clever they are & how good they appear in this latest chapter of the "GR - An oddessy in mismangement and company destruction"
The transmitters were not being "turned off" till after christmas anyway. The have been "switched" to ATC consoles since 25OCT as there are no more people to occupy the Flightwatch consoles. The transmitters can be left on till the 10th of whenever but this will not address the core of the problem. ASA need to reinstate staffing of the seperate flightwatch fuctions and remove it from the controllers.
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