Mega Merged: AsA ATC staffing levels
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Hey Bloggerjck
and my kids dont know me, let alone not having witnessed them grow up.
My two gremlins came out here with me, and had just about the best education money could buy. Don't take my word for it, ask them
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Capt Zorro
"stakeholders will never know because the union Civil Air is as weak as piss and the staff are now running scared in the face of AWA's "
Remember the Union is nearly ALL Air Traffic Controllers, therefore the union is Air Traffic Controllers NOT a separate organisation fighting for ATC's. The Civil Air Union is run by a majority of VOLUNTEERS. There are a lot of people who do this thankless task out of their OWN time. They are NOT compensated & in most cases they are NEVER thanked for the effort they have put in. NO DECISION is made by the EXECUTIVE BOARD it is left to the members to decide this. Positions can be negotiated but ultimately the MEMBERS have FINAL say.
If the MEMBERS push the EXECUTIVE BOARD (NATIONAL EXECUTIVE) to go to the enth degree then the National Executive MUST follow their recommendations. It is the MEMBERS that decide this NOT the National Executive. Ultimately it is the MEMBERS who decide the fate of Civil Air NOT the NATIONAL EXECUTIVE that you allude to.
Did I mention that the Union IS THE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS !!!!!!
Therefore your comments can be interpreted to mean that the MAJORITY (as this is what is taken when voting is counted) of Air Traffic Controllers that are part of the Union are "As Weak as Piss". If they want to fight for what they believe they should be getting, then it's the CONTROLLERS that have to STAND UP & BE COUNTED.
"stakeholders will never know because the union Civil Air is as weak as piss and the staff are now running scared in the face of AWA's "
Remember the Union is nearly ALL Air Traffic Controllers, therefore the union is Air Traffic Controllers NOT a separate organisation fighting for ATC's. The Civil Air Union is run by a majority of VOLUNTEERS. There are a lot of people who do this thankless task out of their OWN time. They are NOT compensated & in most cases they are NEVER thanked for the effort they have put in. NO DECISION is made by the EXECUTIVE BOARD it is left to the members to decide this. Positions can be negotiated but ultimately the MEMBERS have FINAL say.
If the MEMBERS push the EXECUTIVE BOARD (NATIONAL EXECUTIVE) to go to the enth degree then the National Executive MUST follow their recommendations. It is the MEMBERS that decide this NOT the National Executive. Ultimately it is the MEMBERS who decide the fate of Civil Air NOT the NATIONAL EXECUTIVE that you allude to.
Did I mention that the Union IS THE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS !!!!!!
Therefore your comments can be interpreted to mean that the MAJORITY (as this is what is taken when voting is counted) of Air Traffic Controllers that are part of the Union are "As Weak as Piss". If they want to fight for what they believe they should be getting, then it's the CONTROLLERS that have to STAND UP & BE COUNTED.
Last edited by The Euronator; 2nd Nov 2007 at 22:04.
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finally someone gets it
Euronator
that is exactly what I meant, and exactly why I have been told that the last ATC EBA that was finally accepted.
simple isn't it, but now some of those weak as piss people are having a whinge (quite rightly so) but they have no one to blame other than themselves. So now they need to stand up and be counted if not for themselves but for the sake of safety.
that is exactly what I meant, and exactly why I have been told that the last ATC EBA that was finally accepted.
simple isn't it, but now some of those weak as piss people are having a whinge (quite rightly so) but they have no one to blame other than themselves. So now they need to stand up and be counted if not for themselves but for the sake of safety.
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ANSA youre an idiot and please stick to the thread
tobzalp
totally agree with your post yesterday, ANSA has always and will always make these posts as he has to convince himself that he made the right choice ever since he left so that when he goes to bed at night he can feel better about himself while he has a bat.
he is obviously still not convinced poor misguided chap.
BTW, ANSA I can see math is still not your strongpoint. How about when you post these figures, you dumb it down to the basics of what they get in hand after accommodation, knuckle head. You give those who are a bit slow on the math a false impression of what they are really getting (still trying to convince yourself eh).
The real figure for the 5 yr controller is 42,000dhs per mth after accom, school etc and at the ****ty exch rate is about $12,300AUD per month or $144K pa .... which is about a 65% increase which is still good but a darn side lower than 85%....this should be posted in the DXB thread.
ANSA, now you said it will be your last post.....do us all a favour and p**s off and dont post again.
plus stick to the bloody thread which in this case is AsA and unauthorised breaks by non rated staff not bloody money and T&C's which seems to preoccupy you.
totally agree with your post yesterday, ANSA has always and will always make these posts as he has to convince himself that he made the right choice ever since he left so that when he goes to bed at night he can feel better about himself while he has a bat.
he is obviously still not convinced poor misguided chap.
BTW, ANSA I can see math is still not your strongpoint. How about when you post these figures, you dumb it down to the basics of what they get in hand after accommodation, knuckle head. You give those who are a bit slow on the math a false impression of what they are really getting (still trying to convince yourself eh).
The real figure for the 5 yr controller is 42,000dhs per mth after accom, school etc and at the ****ty exch rate is about $12,300AUD per month or $144K pa .... which is about a 65% increase which is still good but a darn side lower than 85%....this should be posted in the DXB thread.
ANSA, now you said it will be your last post.....do us all a favour and p**s off and dont post again.
plus stick to the bloody thread which in this case is AsA and unauthorised breaks by non rated staff not bloody money and T&C's which seems to preoccupy you.
Last edited by PMS; 3rd Nov 2007 at 09:53.
Euronator and Zorro,
You are correct in that the members ARE the Union.
But, from what I am reading, what you guys & gals need is a LEADER. It is unreasonable to expect a multi-purpose mob to get you what you want. Give the rabble a strong and focussed leader ... and you're on your way.
If you don't have a real LEADER now, you need to get one installed before your EBA negotiations start.
You are correct in that the members ARE the Union.
But, from what I am reading, what you guys & gals need is a LEADER. It is unreasonable to expect a multi-purpose mob to get you what you want. Give the rabble a strong and focussed leader ... and you're on your way.
If you don't have a real LEADER now, you need to get one installed before your EBA negotiations start.
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Peuce,
I am talking about Civilair & the membership.
"It is unreasonable to expect a multi-purpose mob to get you what you want"
Civilair has Ordinary Controllers doing this Multi-purpose job task,that is what I am saying.
There are some very good Leaders within the Civilair structure but it takes the MEMBERSHIP to support them & back them in decisions that the MEMBERSHIP have made. The Leadership is ONLY as good as their Support base. I don't believe that Civilair Members are prepared to stick their proverbials on the block & fight for what they believe. They are too worried about their big mortgages etc.
I am talking about Civilair & the membership.
"It is unreasonable to expect a multi-purpose mob to get you what you want"
Civilair has Ordinary Controllers doing this Multi-purpose job task,that is what I am saying.
There are some very good Leaders within the Civilair structure but it takes the MEMBERSHIP to support them & back them in decisions that the MEMBERSHIP have made. The Leadership is ONLY as good as their Support base. I don't believe that Civilair Members are prepared to stick their proverbials on the block & fight for what they believe. They are too worried about their big mortgages etc.
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ANSA - Those that have never lived outside of their home country for an extended period could never possibly understand the benefits of living somewhere like the UAE. Don't bother trying to convince those that really have not had the desire to go and find out what the world really is like. Let them be in their little world.
Regarding the single man 'doggo' - I have never heard so much whining from a group of people about something that has been going on in Brisbane Centre for years. Get over it or do something about it. You all know what to do but I'm pretty sure we all know that the group has already been divided and conquered years ago.
The next CA negotiations will be like all the rest. Lots of talk, maybe a little bit of action then an agreement to CPI plus nothing increase. Well done.
Regarding the single man 'doggo' - I have never heard so much whining from a group of people about something that has been going on in Brisbane Centre for years. Get over it or do something about it. You all know what to do but I'm pretty sure we all know that the group has already been divided and conquered years ago.
The next CA negotiations will be like all the rest. Lots of talk, maybe a little bit of action then an agreement to CPI plus nothing increase. Well done.
Euronator,
I think you got confused by what I was trying to say ... but in the end, I think we are saying the same thing.
However, as much as you think you have strong leaders already ... if the troops aren't following them, then either the leader is not as strong as you think, the leader has not come to grips with what the troops want (not need), or, your troops are so divided that, I think it will all end in tears.
I think you got confused by what I was trying to say ... but in the end, I think we are saying the same thing.
However, as much as you think you have strong leaders already ... if the troops aren't following them, then either the leader is not as strong as you think, the leader has not come to grips with what the troops want (not need), or, your troops are so divided that, I think it will all end in tears.
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When you have the majority of your members (like most working middle class Australians) up to their neck in debt be it home mortgages, investment loans on the rental property or novated leased 4WD's you are never going to get the rank & file to stick their necks out.
Suck it up boys & girls, this little black duck will not be returning in the near future to that crap that AsA dishes out.
I don't agree with every fairytale ANSA spreads but my non unionised work place here in the desert has the same staffing for all three shifts (Morn, Arvo & Night). Additionally since arriving 2 years ago our numbers on the night shift have increased effectively by 2, as well the supervisor has the discretion to combine sectors to accommodate more breaks. More needs to be done here granted but the same would and had never happened in the 10 years I worked for AsA.
Suck it up boys & girls, this little black duck will not be returning in the near future to that crap that AsA dishes out.
I don't agree with every fairytale ANSA spreads but my non unionised work place here in the desert has the same staffing for all three shifts (Morn, Arvo & Night). Additionally since arriving 2 years ago our numbers on the night shift have increased effectively by 2, as well the supervisor has the discretion to combine sectors to accommodate more breaks. More needs to be done here granted but the same would and had never happened in the 10 years I worked for AsA.
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Euronator,
Does "The Leadership is ONLY as good as their Support base" hold true ? I agree with most of what you say, but surely good leadership exists independantly of followership ? Doesn't good followship just make the job bucketloads more effective ? ATCs typically are a pretty skeptical and cautious bunch, but give them something of substance and credibilty, and they just might listen.
If there is, as has been said, any decent leadership already in Civilair, then where is it ? The only communication is through the Civilair website (which only a fraction of the membership even use - but to be constructive it is much better than it used to be! Well done!) with the same whining cronies, the same threads, the same handful of names as three years ago, and for sure we'll end up with the same pathetic EBA.
I don't want to say the glass is half empty, in fact for sure it's at least over half full, but there has just got to be a more "intelligent" reasoning and bargaining process if the "members" are to actually expect something in return for their fees and efforts. Personally I don't see much of a return on Civilair fees. ATCs are NOT professional negotiators, yet we expect them to fight just such a battle against a corporate behemoth that pays for this sort of Industrial service, because the return on the investment to them is huge !! This is a game of service delivery costs and customer value. Justify it to your customers, and the boss really hasn't much else to say. So show me balance sheets, income statements, cash flows, industry forecasts, global (not local) wage comparisons, insurance policies, etc.. and the rest is just academic. We can all add can't we ? One guy just left to be an accountant - bring that chap back as an 'outside' consultant (
) and let's get the ball rolling !!
Carry on
Does "The Leadership is ONLY as good as their Support base" hold true ? I agree with most of what you say, but surely good leadership exists independantly of followership ? Doesn't good followship just make the job bucketloads more effective ? ATCs typically are a pretty skeptical and cautious bunch, but give them something of substance and credibilty, and they just might listen.
If there is, as has been said, any decent leadership already in Civilair, then where is it ? The only communication is through the Civilair website (which only a fraction of the membership even use - but to be constructive it is much better than it used to be! Well done!) with the same whining cronies, the same threads, the same handful of names as three years ago, and for sure we'll end up with the same pathetic EBA.
I don't want to say the glass is half empty, in fact for sure it's at least over half full, but there has just got to be a more "intelligent" reasoning and bargaining process if the "members" are to actually expect something in return for their fees and efforts. Personally I don't see much of a return on Civilair fees. ATCs are NOT professional negotiators, yet we expect them to fight just such a battle against a corporate behemoth that pays for this sort of Industrial service, because the return on the investment to them is huge !! This is a game of service delivery costs and customer value. Justify it to your customers, and the boss really hasn't much else to say. So show me balance sheets, income statements, cash flows, industry forecasts, global (not local) wage comparisons, insurance policies, etc.. and the rest is just academic. We can all add can't we ? One guy just left to be an accountant - bring that chap back as an 'outside' consultant (
) and let's get the ball rolling !!Carry on
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Lucky SDE isn't going to cost any staff! Airspace between Melb and Sydney TIBA again tonight. That's 3 out of the last 4 nights. At least you know that when it's TIBA that you aren't getting the service that you're paying for.
Last edited by Roger Standby; 5th Nov 2007 at 10:09.
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The amount of people I have heard quietly talking 'exit strategy' is amazing.
We used to whinge and moan and mouth off hoping someone higher up would listen and this would spook them. ASA should be afraid , (thats not an iceberg!! we,ve got them in the golden handcuffs)
I've got kids and I get worried when they get quiet, they're up to something.
Controllers have given up on this crowd and are going to give bugger all notice when they go.
The poor b*st*rds stuck on a bond, are counting down the days.
People without the bond and no ties are looking at places where there is a lot on offer for their time-off. eg NZ or Europe
The older blokes who were thinking about retirement in 2-3 years are bringing it forward.
People ,like me ,who have the mortgage just about sussed ,are looking at just leaving controlling or are looking towards the Sandpit or Europe and are having serious discussions with their families.
I know three blokes who have brought their retirement forward, one who is looking at NZ, one who is looking at Ireland and at least two for the Sandpit, all who ASA are unaware of . Yet.
May we live in interesting times.
We used to whinge and moan and mouth off hoping someone higher up would listen and this would spook them. ASA should be afraid , (thats not an iceberg!! we,ve got them in the golden handcuffs)
I've got kids and I get worried when they get quiet, they're up to something.
Controllers have given up on this crowd and are going to give bugger all notice when they go.
The poor b*st*rds stuck on a bond, are counting down the days.
People without the bond and no ties are looking at places where there is a lot on offer for their time-off. eg NZ or Europe
The older blokes who were thinking about retirement in 2-3 years are bringing it forward.
People ,like me ,who have the mortgage just about sussed ,are looking at just leaving controlling or are looking towards the Sandpit or Europe and are having serious discussions with their families.
I know three blokes who have brought their retirement forward, one who is looking at NZ, one who is looking at Ireland and at least two for the Sandpit, all who ASA are unaware of . Yet.
May we live in interesting times.
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Project management
Someone the other day reminded me of the TAAATS introduction and how well it was planned. We had a staff "bowwave" or excess of staff created by training extra for a couple of years before to enable the changeover. We had a training embargo from before the transition to 6 months after(from memory) to enable consolidation. As a consequence the industry suffered probably no effects from the project (and it was a huge undertaking).
The picture now is a different one! We can't even seem to replace retiring staff let alone actually get to full staffing levels. Apparently the college is only putting 25 trainees thru next year (don't think that includes the internationals). Just start to think about how many people are seriously looking outside at the moment and figure out if that will even keep us running.
SDE has been badly mismanaged and why they are even attempting to implement it without the staff to do it amazes me! Of course all the experienced project staff were sacked for telling the truth so maybe they just think it will be alright on the night! Finally, they tell the airlines that SDE will cost no people (ROFL) but that there will be more TIBA due to staff shortage.
We are looking down the barrel (in 6 months) of TIBA thru ML TCU as well because they are not prioritising staff replacements and are filling up ENR first (though it takes twice as long to train TCU). This is actually their plan! Of course, it will be those recalcitrant ATCs causing the staff shortages and not poor planning...
Blue (sorry that got a bit long!)
The picture now is a different one! We can't even seem to replace retiring staff let alone actually get to full staffing levels. Apparently the college is only putting 25 trainees thru next year (don't think that includes the internationals). Just start to think about how many people are seriously looking outside at the moment and figure out if that will even keep us running.
SDE has been badly mismanaged and why they are even attempting to implement it without the staff to do it amazes me! Of course all the experienced project staff were sacked for telling the truth so maybe they just think it will be alright on the night! Finally, they tell the airlines that SDE will cost no people (ROFL) but that there will be more TIBA due to staff shortage.
We are looking down the barrel (in 6 months) of TIBA thru ML TCU as well because they are not prioritising staff replacements and are filling up ENR first (though it takes twice as long to train TCU). This is actually their plan! Of course, it will be those recalcitrant ATCs causing the staff shortages and not poor planning...
Blue (sorry that got a bit long!)
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Missed something?
Well, maybe "licencing and aerodromes" didn't run their responses, to individuals and ASA, through corporate lawyers at CASA and the sh!t is about to stick; then again that could be pure scuttle-butt.
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YOU ARE STRAYING FROM THE POINT, BOYS AND GIRLS!!!
The thread relates to apparently unethical and ILLEGAL breaks on night shifts.
Forget what is being admitted to - there is a culture of ATC's working night shifts being allowed to "get their heads down" for a few hours whilst their comrades "cover" for them - THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE ADAM WAS A BOY!!!
The question is whether Airservices' latest pronouncement constititutes a legal direction - OR an attempt to cover their arses!
Do you think anyone - controller, pilot, engineer, etc - should be paid to SLEEP on a doggo?
The thread relates to apparently unethical and ILLEGAL breaks on night shifts.
Forget what is being admitted to - there is a culture of ATC's working night shifts being allowed to "get their heads down" for a few hours whilst their comrades "cover" for them - THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE ADAM WAS A BOY!!!
The question is whether Airservices' latest pronouncement constititutes a legal direction - OR an attempt to cover their arses!
Do you think anyone - controller, pilot, engineer, etc - should be paid to SLEEP on a doggo?
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I think you are missing the point WELLCONCERNED. Long haul a/c are being designed with crew rest areas to facilitate rest breaks for the the crews. There is always someone qualified at the controls even while someone is having a rest, be that sleep or other. An engineer on night shift is entitled to a break and work either stops during that break or another QUALIFIED engineer takes over.
LAME to AME: "I'm going on a break, just finish this off and sign it off for me if I'm not back on time" ??? I don't think so.
I am legally entitled to a break on night shift. I expect that someone legally qualified should be able to provide that break for me. Why should I have to hold the responsibity for a/c in my airspace while someone not qualified sits and "monitors" for up to 20 minutes?
This is a legal question, not an efficiency one.
As a sideline, contrary to what management sprouts, double man doggos have been a huge success with regards to fatigue. Resistance was huge initially, but the majority are, by far, now much happier to work more night shifts if it means that their overall fatigue levels are significantly reduced (which they are).
The management that now writes how unsuccesful the concept of double man doggos has been is that same that wrote the lenghty document that proposed the two man concept in the first place. It was expressed that AsA was not going to stuff about about with half arsed measures in relation to night shift fatigue and that at a cost of only 4 employees across the whole of Melbourne Centre, night shift fatigue issues would be wiped out. The statement that argues the concept has not worked is a blatant mistruth- there is NO evidence to back it up except that the beancounters look at it and say you have 4 more controllers than you need. In fact I don't even thinks it's that. The real reason for canning the extra shift is that we do not have enough controllers to make their bloody SDE work. SDE has/will cost more staff. Scraping it thin all over the place won't cover the problems.
LAME to AME: "I'm going on a break, just finish this off and sign it off for me if I'm not back on time" ??? I don't think so.
I am legally entitled to a break on night shift. I expect that someone legally qualified should be able to provide that break for me. Why should I have to hold the responsibity for a/c in my airspace while someone not qualified sits and "monitors" for up to 20 minutes?
This is a legal question, not an efficiency one.
As a sideline, contrary to what management sprouts, double man doggos have been a huge success with regards to fatigue. Resistance was huge initially, but the majority are, by far, now much happier to work more night shifts if it means that their overall fatigue levels are significantly reduced (which they are).
The management that now writes how unsuccesful the concept of double man doggos has been is that same that wrote the lenghty document that proposed the two man concept in the first place. It was expressed that AsA was not going to stuff about about with half arsed measures in relation to night shift fatigue and that at a cost of only 4 employees across the whole of Melbourne Centre, night shift fatigue issues would be wiped out. The statement that argues the concept has not worked is a blatant mistruth- there is NO evidence to back it up except that the beancounters look at it and say you have 4 more controllers than you need. In fact I don't even thinks it's that. The real reason for canning the extra shift is that we do not have enough controllers to make their bloody SDE work. SDE has/will cost more staff. Scraping it thin all over the place won't cover the problems.
Last edited by Roger Standby; 12th Nov 2007 at 09:31. Reason: crap spelling
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Great thread about time the truth came out. At the outset I would like to say I am an ATC and frustrated private pilot.
Morale in AsA cannot get any worse and no one is listening. Staff that have left in the past 12-24months are all very experienced controllers form all parts of the organisation.
Parts of AsA are only operating, when staff get a chance to get to it. Some units are and have been short staffed for a long period of time. The system is really stretched to the limit and is only working due to the goodwill and professionalism of the remaining staff. I do not know how long this will continue, and only hope that nothing major happens.
There are some units where controllers cannot access annual leave due to staff shortages. These same controllers then get counseled on having too much rec leave accrued.
Our latest staff survey indicated that employee engagement in the ATC area is below 50%, but this was alright as this was a 25% increase on last year’s survey.
With management logic like this, we have a long way to go before morale will improve.
Safe flying.
Morale in AsA cannot get any worse and no one is listening. Staff that have left in the past 12-24months are all very experienced controllers form all parts of the organisation.
Parts of AsA are only operating, when staff get a chance to get to it. Some units are and have been short staffed for a long period of time. The system is really stretched to the limit and is only working due to the goodwill and professionalism of the remaining staff. I do not know how long this will continue, and only hope that nothing major happens.
There are some units where controllers cannot access annual leave due to staff shortages. These same controllers then get counseled on having too much rec leave accrued.
Our latest staff survey indicated that employee engagement in the ATC area is below 50%, but this was alright as this was a 25% increase on last year’s survey.
With management logic like this, we have a long way to go before morale will improve.
Safe flying.