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Mega Merged: AsA ATC staffing levels

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Mega Merged: AsA ATC staffing levels

Old 31st Jan 2008, 19:32
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The Australian has a large story on the font page of aviation section today.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-23349,00.html

More of the same , but at least it is getting out there.

Airservices insists the closures are not a safety problem and says it has a strategy in place that should see short-term problems fixed by the end of the year.


Airservices concedes that poor planning prior to the arrival of the current management contributed to the issues, and notes that the problem has been exacerbated by the global shortage of controllers.


CL

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Old 31st Jan 2008, 20:25
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Yes well TFN has only been in for 2.5 years; how could he be responsible for the staffing crisis; oh hang on; did he not steer the ship down the "no new trainees" route in 2006/2007, whilst expanding (sic) the college (I refuse to use the new name)?

Oh yes that's right; it's Bernie S/Hisham A/George G/Brian P and Andrew Fs' fault. The hypocrisy is astounding.
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Old 31st Jan 2008, 20:54
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One Richard Harold Smith might also cop some of the blame for the current staffing/management crisis.

You may recall that RHS managed to bamboozle Airservices/CASA/Defence senior management into hairbrained airspace 'adjustment' schemes that sapped HUGE amounts of resource across those organisations. Airservices was hit particularly badly with significant staff effort required across the boards in training, planning, attempted implementation of the various schemes.

The so-called 'stable year' pre-and post TAAATS implementation was thrown to hell, not by poor planning, but by the need to fit in the RHS-induced airspace reform imperatives.

If there's one single thing that can be used as a focal point for the current staffing and morale crisis, it's RHS's obsession with airspace reform - and Airservices' managements' attempts to appease that dragon.

Forget the more recent NAS initiatives, as damning and damaging to morale as they were. Go back to the East Coast Class E implementation, the abortive Class G demo, the destruction of FS and implementation of RIS/RAS/ROS/RUS/RES... All of these were implemented in the middle of the single most significant shift in air traffic management Airservices had ever attempted - the implementation of TAAATS.

IF that beast had been allowed to be implemented in accordance with the then carefuly laid out plans, and IF that beast had been allowed to mature properly and unimpeded by peripheral changes over a 3-5 year period as had been planned, staffing morale would have been a lot higher, staff confidence in the machine would have been a lot higher, staff safety consciousness would have been a lot higher, and staff confidence in management would have been a lot higher.

Productivity would have grown, and staff would have felt a lot more comfortable with attempting the vaunted airspace reforms that RHS wanted.

You might also recognise the fact that many of the current management group got their guernseys through volunteering to be part of the RHS airspace reform program - the airspace yes men. In the absence of such a program, the normal management recruitment program might have seen properly skilled personnel moving through the ranks to management, and bringing requisitre knowledge and skills - instead you had young pups gung-ho with enthusiasm, rushing forward to 'help' RHS and his rush-to-glory reform program.

So in a sense, TFN is right - it is a problem that traces its history to former management - BUT it is a problem that should have been recognised immediately he took the reigns, and treated immediately. It is his problem - he should have staunched the wounds and started the repair program back when to took over - I only hope the new CEO is not so blind.
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Old 31st Jan 2008, 22:48
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Wellconcerned, come on, pull the other one. My last involvement with air traffic control in a position of authority was when I finished my term as CAA Chairman in February 1992 – that is 16 years ago!

The TAAATS system was ordered to specifically go with the AMATS airspace system. I suggest you look at Chapter Three (and on) of Unsafe Skies here. Specifically look at the diagram of the airspace that was approved by the CAA Board in 1991. In effect, TAAATS is designed to go with a proper disciplined airspace system that is operated by air traffic control, using separation techniques for IFR aircraft.

Ever since I retired there has been a campaign by those who resist change to try to keep the old “do it yourself” Flight Service system, but have professional air traffic controllers perform that task.

The fact that you are not game to put your name to your post could mean that you have some other agenda.

It is interesting that there is no person who places posts on this site, or makes any official statements with a different agenda for airspace, who gives his or her name. All I can see are anonymous people posting, and saying in effect, “We should keep the status quo and never ever move ahead with proper procedures that are designed for air traffic controllers rather than having ATCs operate as if they are FSOs.”

If I had been responsible in any way in the last five years, there would have been no chance of the present situation occurring. There would be more air traffic controllers employed, but there would also be more controlled airspace and less “do it yourself” procedures for airlines when in cloud and in mountainous terrain under radar coverage.

I suggest everyone has a read of Unsafe Skies again to see if they actually disagree with the plans that were approved by the CAA Board in 1991. I haven’t actually ever heard of anyone disagreeing with the principles of what the AMATS changes were to gain.
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Old 1st Feb 2008, 03:34
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I'm sorry Richard....I thought I heard you just say that you've had no influence on Airservices throogh the last 16 years.....I'm quite shocked that you are so naive as to believe that anyone would take that seriously.

You have been touting an airspace reform package for years - and have cajoled Minister after Minister to exert pressure on the Boards of both CASA and Airservices to implement your reform packages to the exclusion of all other changes.

I have no opinion [in this thread] one way or another on the merits or otherwise of the reforms you sought. What I am saying is that Airservices had a specific agenda for the implementation of TAATS - a very carefully laid out plan, with bow-wave of controllers, planned redundancies, planned system improvements, locked in software packages - and then along comes Airspace 2000, RAS, RIS, Class G Demo, NAS, and all the other 'in the way' programs that completely derailed the TAAATS plans, pissed of controllers, and vexed management.

Yes, it's Airservices' management's fault that they're in the current predicament with staff shortages - but do take some credit for being the interfering b*^tard that you are!! and take some credit for the impending accident that will eventually come because of the depressingly low morale amongst controllers, due in no small part to your need to stroke your own ego!

Read the safety analysis of the Platform Alpha accident. Read the safety analysis of the victorian gas explosion. Read them, and be aware that any accident arising from current controller disenchantment and fatigue will inexorably track back to you! Be afraid, Dick - be VERY afraid!!
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Old 1st Feb 2008, 05:38
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One of the biggest problems in Australia is that there is only one ATC centre actually doing ATC - and it aint ML.
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Old 1st Feb 2008, 06:47
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One of the biggest problems in Australia is that there is only one ATC centre actually doing ATC - and it aint ML.
Traffic, please explain? What we don't need is a Melbourne v Brisbane slanging match, it would play into Airservices' hands.
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Old 1st Feb 2008, 09:33
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Don't feed the trolls WESTY,

TT has a habit of kickin' people when they're down; I think it's all about those whingen' poms he had to deal with in Holland.

PS TT I thought you were a SY Boy? Had the QLD chip inserted I see.
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Old 1st Feb 2008, 09:44
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One of the biggest problems in Australia is that there is only one ATC centre actually doing ATC - and it aint ML.
I thought he meant WLM Centre
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Old 1st Feb 2008, 09:45
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Aharrrr Pirate.....

Actually Melbourne boy by design but well yes - living the dream now along with a couple of thousand Victorians and NSWelshmen a month who like migrating swallows have moved north. (Do swallows migrate North or is it South?)

1st soldier with a keen interest in birds: Am I right?
King Arthur: I'm not interested!
Second Swallow-Savvy Guard: It could be carried by an African swallow.
King Arthur: Will you ask your master if he wants to join my court at Camelot?
1st soldier with a keen interest in birds: Oh yeah, an African swallow, maybe, but not a European swallow. That's my point.
Second Swallow-Savvy Guard: But then the African swallow's not migratory...


......not so much having something installed as having something uninstalled when you move here!

We do look after our Southern Cousins to be fair......you know Red Cross Food Parcel at Chrissie and the like - and they take everything so seriously....ah well for the good old days where you had words on the coord line and that was it....no Autopsy no ESIR.....


TT


How are you anyway Pirate?
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Old 1st Feb 2008, 09:51
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Here to help,

Don't think they're doing ATC at WLM either. From what we're led to believe, all they do is hold everyone at Nobby's!!!
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Old 1st Feb 2008, 14:48
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One of the biggest problems in Australia is that there is only one ATC centre actually doing ATC - and it aint ML.
Love ya work Hero

Two words for ya buddy: Melbourne - Sydney. Check the stats
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Old 2nd Feb 2008, 06:32
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people, how does a p1ssing contest help anyone?

perhaps the comment was more related to the fact that ML sectors have had more TIBA lately than BN? good on you folks for having better things to do on you ENTITLED DAYS OFF than come in and prop up the system, and mask our growing staffing crisis.
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Old 2nd Feb 2008, 10:20
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Two words for ya buddy: Melbourne - Sydney. Check the stats
Well I aint no gun ATC but I count 5 words after the colon.

TT

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Old 2nd Feb 2008, 17:39
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An you are an expert on colons as we all know
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Old 3rd Feb 2008, 21:31
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Wellconcerned, you state:

I have no opinion [in this thread] one way or another on the merits or otherwise of the reforms you sought.
What a colossal cop out. Are you suggesting that TAAATS was to be implemented without any airspace changes – i.e. that we would have low level airspace below 12,500 feet being operated without any radar service at all?

What you have left out is that I was instrumental in purchasing the TAAATS system, and rather than design a unique system like RADREP (which never worked properly) it was decided we would purchase proven equipment and then use it with a proven airspace system – all pretty sensible. It tends to prevent “Collins Class Submarine” type stuff-ups.

I remember at the time there was pressure to buy Hughes equipment. Hughes had offered to design equipment especially to go with the Australian airspace system. As we know by hindsight, Hughes never got a civilian system going and tens of millions of dollars were lost in Canada and Switzerland because of this.

With your experience as an air traffic controller, surely you must have a view on my Unsafe Skies publication. (See here). Why is it that you haven’t made any comment on the fact that we have very good radar coverage at low level between Melbourne and Cairns, however we do not use it to prevent Controlled Flight Into Terrain accidents other than in the terminal area?

It is great to hear about the Platform Alpha accident and the Victorian gas explosion, but what about Benalla? You, as an experienced air traffic controller, must have been horrified that the system which is in place couldn’t assist in preventing such a needless accident. Remember, the pilot was some 11 miles off course and this was clearly shown on the radar.

Wellconcerned, I’m going to call your bluff. Why don’t you have an opinion on the merits of the airspace reforms as shown in Unsafe Skies? What part do you disagree with? Could it be the success I have recently had in moving the regulation and allocation of airspace from the profit making body to the so-called independent regulator? If you check Unsafe Skies, that is one of the major issues.

I find it fascinating that with all your posts and your obvious knowledge and experience of air traffic control, you can’t actually offer a view on the fact that we are still using old Flight Service procedures in radar covered airspace operated by air traffic controllers.

I look forward to your advice.
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Old 3rd Feb 2008, 21:54
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Well I aint no gun ATC but I count 5 words after the colon.
Ahhh..... I think there was a full stop there after the two words??

Love ya work Hero
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Old 3rd Feb 2008, 23:08
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It tends to prevent “Collins Class Submarine” type stuff-ups.
Dick, you crack me up! Do you really believe what you have posted? If you substitute "Airservices" for "Navy" and "TAAATS" for "Collins- class submarine", the episodes are identical. Quite eerily so. Very generous of you to stand up and take responsibility for the AsA debacle, though. Here I was thinking that you only did self-agrandisement.
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Old 3rd Feb 2008, 23:22
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Staff shortages are not related to airspace design - they are related to internal re-sectorisation decisions however.
.. and thousands of wasted man hours on airspace folly
Funnily enough most of which came about due to the desire to do more with less.
... which relates directly to WC's earlier points
WELLCONCERNED 1st February 2008 08:54
.
One Richard Harold Smith might also cop some of the blame for the current staffing/management crisis.
.... BUT wait ... now his nib's has had an epiphany and says
Dick Smith 3rd Feb 01:36 #26
.
I totally agree that AA requires more ATCs
.
WC .. you hit the nail on the head ... how much money, time, industry confidence and experienced staff have been lost from years of chasing this tale
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Old 4th Feb 2008, 06:02
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Dick,

In your last post you state:

Could it be the success I have recently had in moving the regulation and allocation of airspace from the profit making body to the so-called independent regulator?

Is this a first public admission that you actually do have some influence on airspace matters in Australia, contrary to the countless claims you have made to the contrary.

Last edited by WELLCONCERNED; 4th Feb 2008 at 20:19.
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