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Qantas CP unofficial comment on pilot shortage.

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Qantas CP unofficial comment on pilot shortage.

Old 22nd Oct 2007, 03:47
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Hate to say it..yet again...but this entire mess all stems from that year we cannot mention..when open season was declared on pilots and pilots conditions. The managers have assumed, from that time on, that is was "open season" on flight crew in Australia, and have adopted a "lets see how low can we go" approach.
Well, I think they might have their answer now in 2007...they have gone so low that the GPWS is sounding off. Yet they still dont want to admit it, that they have to PAY pilots what they are worth and show them some RESPECT.
They cannot keep expecting people to pay for interviews, endorsments, manuals, toilet paper on board, and pay them less than the local pizza boy and expect people to flock to the industry.
Its over, they have had their run..they ran the race and it looks like they are losing it at last...it just remains to be seen if the can pull their heads out of their respective ases and admit it. (Some how I doubt that will happen)
To repeat what has been said many times...They are reaping what they have sowed...and I hope they stew in it.
As for Harvey....a complete tosser and I will be remembering to to shop there in the future.... rant over
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Old 22nd Oct 2007, 05:52
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The flaw to that argument SOPS is Virgin Blue.

Experience came cheap and opportunity was self-funded. And where did a good proportion of the culture come from? Yes, that year..........
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Old 22nd Oct 2007, 08:00
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Harvey Norman is a rip off anyway, I use their shops as a browsing area then go down to china town and buy it off the local chinese seller for usually Harvey Norman -20% . He is a tosser anyway and always has been, nothing new there. Yes pilots in QF are retiring and $hite loads more than we all know. Heaps are about to pull the plug with no notice, thats a fact. Bring it on. Its time to... SHOW ME THE MONEY!
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Old 22nd Oct 2007, 09:10
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Makes you wonder why the short haul boys signed off an EBA without waiting.
The whole thing was railroaded through by management and no real evidence to suggest that the union had enough time to pick through it...

One of those times to sit on our hands and wait...what is the hurry to sign up to a deal??

The ball is most definitely in our court. If collectively we realise this then perhaps, just perhaps, respect will be forthcoming and remuneration that reflects our contribution will follow...

(we are only a part of the process, but an important part nonetheless)
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Old 23rd Oct 2007, 08:30
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I can't recall what forum I posted this on..

But the ABS published an occassional paper on demographics and workplace aging...

Fascinating reading and has been coming for the last 40 years..Claims to the contrary that companies haven't seen it coming are crap....

The problem for Dixon/Oldmeadow and even Mannering are that they are part of the aging workforce...Dare I say it yesterday's men.

Guys are leaving QF, not only Captains. Friends of mine in the S/O ranks have had collegaues depart who were S/O's. That rarely if ever happened in the past. It was only a year or so ago when Bogetti claimed the pilot shortage wouldn't affect Q.
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Old 23rd Oct 2007, 10:02
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"But Ken Phillips, work reform director at the the Institute of Public Affairs, says neither [political] parties position seems to acknowledge Australia is on the verge of a"demographic tsunami", which would have dire consequences for the labour market.
He cites an Access Economics report saying that while there were 140,000 new job entrants in 2006-07, this figure would fall to 50,000 by 2011-12, representing a shortfall of 290,000 over the next five years - a shortfall driven by population ageing and the retirement of baby boomers.
Demographic Tsunami Ahead, Page 61, Australian Financial Review, 22 Oct 2007

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Old 23rd Oct 2007, 10:52
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Believe what you like, here's the Occasional Paper No2 (Department of Family Services) QFinsider was alluded to. Read that and make your own mind up.
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Old 23rd Oct 2007, 11:14
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QF Insider

The ball is most definitely in our court. If collectively we realise this then perhaps, just perhaps, respect will be forthcoming and remuneration that reflects our contribution will follow...
Just don't take your eye off that ball. It seems to me that no-one is taking the idea of imported labour seriously. That it "won't happen" is a very, very dangerous assumption to make. Look at '89. When suddenly there were "no pilots", foreign pilots came in droves from Europe and the US. Some stayed and some left.

LCCs like easyjet and Ryanair in Europe manage have a plentiful supply of pilots who continue to pay for their type rating despite the strong market conditions for the pilots. Their source? Eastern Europe when the EU expanded by another 10 countries in 2005. Maybe some of them want to move to Oz?

The Asian market is expanding at an incredible rate. Look at India and China. Mostly A320s and 737NG. All type and airline qualified. Maybe some of them want to move to Oz?

I doubt that, in his plea to the government, Manning really expects the government to contribute to pilot training. I think he's after easy access visas for pilots just the way there CURRENTLY is for hairdressers, mechanics and other "trade" jobs. He's just softening people up so that they'll accept that there is a pilot shortage.

Don't think that just because you WANT higher pay and better T&Cs that you'll get it. You need to fight and be persistant. The people who you will be going head-to-head with have been scr3wing people for a long time and they're god at it.

Watching the space,

LP
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Old 23rd Oct 2007, 11:26
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thanks Freddy, that's the one!!
Low-pass,
Definitely it's a soften up. My company is a bit like the media. Believe little of what you read less of what you hear, particulalry when it comes from the mouth of mis-management. Bit like J* int. Be good boys sign an EBA and we will let you in on J* int, when in actuality the deal was done. After Dixon said it would never exist in the first place!

The problem now is that Ryan Air et al have dispensed with a lot of up front costs dumped previously on the applicant. This is necessary to hold the skilled employee. Immigration is one way to tackle a short term shortage, however it is not politically palatable.. As the Demographic paper alludes to, the problem will not be and cannot be addressed by immigration alone. Real wages and conditions for all SKILLED employees will rise.
In downsizing, rightsizing, scaring and intimidating workers employees are now just like all other "resources"-they go to the higher bidder. QF loyalty was second to none! Not these days

The actual logic alluded to by Costello for "work-lack- of-choices" was to limit the ability of skilled/short labour to bid up due scarcity their real wages.

As you reap you shall sow...
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Old 23rd Oct 2007, 11:59
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So it is pretty clear what everyone has to do. You know who to vote for to get rid of work choices, and then lets see Mr Dixon start sweating a bit.
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Old 24th Oct 2007, 22:28
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Companies must plan to fill void left as boomers retire

October 23, 2007 A looming "tsunami" of baby boomer retirements could decimate the management ranks and hobble productivity at many corporations unless companies intensify efforts to develop younger talent, according to a new study.

Many executives are aware of the coming "gray drain," the study, by the accounting firm Ernst & Young, said. But not enough of them have taken steps to head off skill shortages and turnover that could hurt the bottom line.

"The demographics are irrefutable and irreversible," said William Arnone, one of the survey's authors, "and companies need to plan for it."

The Bureau of Labor Statistics predicts that 43% of the U.S. labor force will become eligible to retire between 2004 and 2012.

The skills and institutional knowledge lost when older workers retire won't easily be replaced, Arnone said. Management shortages already are appearing in some sectors that have experienced a number of early retirements, including utilities and among hospital nursing staffs, he added.

"More enlightened employers are going to get ahead of the curve," Arnone said, and companies able to differentiate themselves as "older worker-friendly" will be poised to reap dividends. Those that don't will face the prospect of "serious financial and productivity issues" in the future as managers scramble to plug staffing holes when experienced employees retire, he said.

Of the human resource managers Ernst & Young surveyed, 43% said they needed to do more to train and develop their managers. A lack of succession planning will hit middle management particularly hard, according to the report.

Arnone and his colleagues urge companies to identify managers eligible to retire in coming years, decide who should replace them and begin training those individuals.

Work-obsessed baby boomers have complicated the transition planning, observed Peter Rose, a partner with marketing research firm Yankelovich Inc. in Los Angeles.

Because the post-war generation "has defined work as a way to be a winner in the game of life," he said, boomers have been hesitant to hand over the reins, forcing many organizations to keep younger workers on the sidelines.

He thinks firms can turn the reluctance of some older workers to retire completely into an advantage, by offering valued managers part-time or flexible schedules as an incentive to stay on the job to help train their successors.

The second annual Aging Workforce Survey polled 3,300 human resources executives from Fortune 1000 companies.
Source LA Times

Europe & Japan is in the same situation. Competition is going to be fierce.
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Old 24th Oct 2007, 23:40
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Quote by Professor Roy Green from the Macquarie Graduate School of Management last year stating "There is no skills shortage in this country but a short-sighted grab-for-cash mentality of the corporate elite". I don't know which company he was talking about but maybe some elderly airline executives should take note.
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Old 24th Oct 2007, 23:57
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When will Australian airline managers face the music and publically admit that there is no shortage of Australian pilots that would be happy to work for their particular airline. There is however a shortage of ones that want to work for pathetic wages under poor conditions and put the gear up and down when they have more than enough experience as jet Captains to cope with the demands of Australian aviation.

The solution is simple. Pay a fair days pay for a fair days work and hire crew into a position matched to their experience/ability whether that be SO, FO or CAPT. That is what happens in most other lines of work. Our industry does not need an influx of foreign Pilots that wish to get a passport working for airlines in this country.
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Old 25th Oct 2007, 01:28
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Well said "Exit Strategy".
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Old 25th Oct 2007, 02:00
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The greatest deterrence to foreign pilots was the taxation.

Now it is the cost of housing in Australia.Add to this lucrative tax free packages elsewhere and a pilot shortage greater abroad.

I just can't see it. Foreign pilots attracted to Australia that is!
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Old 25th Oct 2007, 05:36
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Airlines do not exist for pilots.

They exist to make money for the shareholders. They exist to carry people (customers or guests whatever you like). They exist to ensure those executives luckly enough to have their heads in the trough make big bonuses.

Pilots (LAMEs and cabin crew) are necessary appendages.

Pilots lost their ability to influence management with the demise of the open cockpit. Manning is so far down the food chain that any bleats he may have let forth would not have been noticed by Dixon, Boghetti, Gregg, Joyce or co. It would have meant expenditure. Reduced profit. Lower bonus.

The new pilot training scheme introduced by QF is not about pilots it is about making money out of training. It doesn't have a pilot heading it up, it has an exco member, Curtis Davies).

Gents, the new world has arrived. Pilots are the bus drivers of the new century. Why because we talk talk talk talk about how bad things are. If there is a shortage now is the time to demand what we think we are worth.

Reality. We are not prepared to do that. If we pushed the point the pilot group would split in to pieces. The senior pilots in QF are not prepared to have their superannuation put in danger and why should they.

Because of this the new world is upon us.

Seniority is dead.
EBA for direct entry at you current rank / experience is the solution. JQ do that now. Why not the mainline.
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Old 25th Oct 2007, 06:00
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And Airlines will not exist without pilots, but i guess history has shown that they do because we don't stick together when the time comes to, airlines always find a way,
And bus drivers don't do years of expensive training, and don't do years of hard yards working and building experience to get an airline job, so i guess cadets could almost be called bus drivers with more training with better equipment and scenery.
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Old 25th Oct 2007, 06:08
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Wings of Fury:
so i guess cadets could

Whats the bloke of the 12th man say? Tony Greig - A Grudge (Garage) is a place to Park your car!




So many people with chips on their shoulders! I wonder if the accounting firms, law firms in fact nearly all big business and major professions have so much pent up animosity towards their cadets.
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Old 25th Oct 2007, 06:12
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I agree with you WoF

If there was a glut of pilots, airlines act - redundancy, furlough - and we talk about how hopeless management is.

When there is a shortage of pilots we don't act and we talk how hopeless management is.

And we wonder why we are trod on!!
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Old 25th Oct 2007, 07:38
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What pilot shortage???

Qantas just let a perfectly good Qantaslink F/O walk out the door to go to Cathay. They then phoned him the next day to offer him an interview for mainline.
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