Qantas Group 787's
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Qantas Group 787's
I am confused as to why the initial 787's are being introduced into Jetstar rather than Qantas.
If the 787 will eventually replace all 767's in mainline (supposedly a premium carrier), why would you not do that as soon as possible?
The 767 forms the backbone of the cityflyer operation, but is ready for replacement now...they do not present a good image to premium customers, they're outdated in the cabin. These premium customers pay more to travel by choice, price is of secondary concern to them.
Yet the brand spankers go to the budget operation, whose customers presumably don't care about the product as much as the price.
I understand the initial 78's go into Jetstar, for a period, and then are moved into mainline. Is this not an inefficient way to introduce aircraft that are destined for mainline anyway?
Maybe someone can shed some light on the strategy behind such a decision?
If the 787 will eventually replace all 767's in mainline (supposedly a premium carrier), why would you not do that as soon as possible?
The 767 forms the backbone of the cityflyer operation, but is ready for replacement now...they do not present a good image to premium customers, they're outdated in the cabin. These premium customers pay more to travel by choice, price is of secondary concern to them.
Yet the brand spankers go to the budget operation, whose customers presumably don't care about the product as much as the price.
I understand the initial 78's go into Jetstar, for a period, and then are moved into mainline. Is this not an inefficient way to introduce aircraft that are destined for mainline anyway?
Maybe someone can shed some light on the strategy behind such a decision?
Last edited by Reeltime; 21st Sep 2007 at 00:19. Reason: spelling
Nunc est bibendum
I asked the same question. It's to increase J*'s margins. QF already has a decent margin on the 767 operation so they reckon they can get a better profit on their operation by having them in J* in the short term.
It sounds like fuzzy economics to me.
Of course the probably more correct reason is as a 'stick' to the mainline crew who will be negotiating terms and conditions on the 787 shortly. J* already have their T&C for the 787 (and A380 and 744, etc, etc) with the wide body variation to their EBA. QF drivers are yet to negotiate terms and so J* having the aircraft is a big stick that can be used against mainline in terms of. IE come to an agreement or J* keep getting them.
It sounds like fuzzy economics to me.
Of course the probably more correct reason is as a 'stick' to the mainline crew who will be negotiating terms and conditions on the 787 shortly. J* already have their T&C for the 787 (and A380 and 744, etc, etc) with the wide body variation to their EBA. QF drivers are yet to negotiate terms and so J* having the aircraft is a big stick that can be used against mainline in terms of. IE come to an agreement or J* keep getting them.
Probably so they can screw down the T & C with Jetstar then go to mainline and tell them to take it or leave it. However given what is going on in the pilot labour market at the moment Jetstar might be struggling to find people to fly the aircraft at the wages they want to pay. I'm sure they could find plenty of emirate 777 people if they were prepared to pay the money.
There was also a interesting post around here in regard to Jetstar's lack of maintenance planning for the 787.
There was also a interesting post around here in regard to Jetstar's lack of maintenance planning for the 787.
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G'day Keg,
Reading your post above, I wonder if you might shed light on the bracketed bit about A330's and B744's as part of a Jetstar EBA.
Does current thinking suggest The Big Q might move the B744's to Jetstar?
And another question, if you don't mind: will Jetstar's B787's ultimately be based in Cairns, do you think?
Reading your post above, I wonder if you might shed light on the bracketed bit about A330's and B744's as part of a Jetstar EBA.
Does current thinking suggest The Big Q might move the B744's to Jetstar?
And another question, if you don't mind: will Jetstar's B787's ultimately be based in Cairns, do you think?
Nunc est bibendum
4PW, to be honest I have no idea. No doubt the current line would be 'there are currently no plans to move the 744 or A380 to J*'. That doesn't mean that they won't have a plan for it in 12-24 months time.
My comments were more about the fact that the J* EBA applies to the A330, 777, 787, 744, 767, A380, A350, etc, etc. It's a 'widebody' variation to their EBA so it doesn't matter what airframe comes their way, if it's a wide body, they have their pay rate.
If J* are still going back and forward to Japan then they'll probably have a long haul base in Cairns...which means they'll have 787s in Cairns.
My comments were more about the fact that the J* EBA applies to the A330, 777, 787, 744, 767, A380, A350, etc, etc. It's a 'widebody' variation to their EBA so it doesn't matter what airframe comes their way, if it's a wide body, they have their pay rate.
If J* are still going back and forward to Japan then they'll probably have a long haul base in Cairns...which means they'll have 787s in Cairns.
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Allt he 15 x 787-8's will be going to JQ initially.
Once the 787-9's start arriving from 2011 I presume they are hoping that JQ can use the capacity increase of the -9's and then the -8's will be passed back to QF domestic to repalce the 767's
Once the 787-9's start arriving from 2011 I presume they are hoping that JQ can use the capacity increase of the -9's and then the -8's will be passed back to QF domestic to repalce the 767's
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Any 78 flying for mainline will be a sub contract from Jetstar to the Mainline ...... like all the subcontract work in the past and present (eg Impulse, NJS, et) ... this will force the mainline pilots to make a call ...... but they can't strike because that will just allow Jetstar to takeover proper ... they will be given any slots QF mainline can't operate .... and the mainline guys will have nowhere to go .....
Not quite 89 all over but gives the company plenty of leverage ....
Not quite 89 all over but gives the company plenty of leverage ....
My take on things . . . . .
The 787s are going to JQ first because:
1. They will provide a higher return on capital under the low cost model.
2. The JQ Pilots will have several years of operating experience on them before the QF guys + girls get a chance, creating a neat trojan horse to drive mainline conditions down further.
The 787 was my future in mainline. It became clear to me when the JQ widebody variation was voted in that I would never get to fly one under mainline t & c's. . . . so I left.
I had beers in Dubai this week with a few other ex-QF mates. One of them was a -400 F/O, only 80 odd numbers off a command when he left. He was told by Manning that "he was doing the right thing . . . ". We all agreed that leaving was the best thing we ever did.
1. They will provide a higher return on capital under the low cost model.
2. The JQ Pilots will have several years of operating experience on them before the QF guys + girls get a chance, creating a neat trojan horse to drive mainline conditions down further.
The 787 was my future in mainline. It became clear to me when the JQ widebody variation was voted in that I would never get to fly one under mainline t & c's. . . . so I left.
I had beers in Dubai this week with a few other ex-QF mates. One of them was a -400 F/O, only 80 odd numbers off a command when he left. He was told by Manning that "he was doing the right thing . . . ". We all agreed that leaving was the best thing we ever did.
One would think a premium market would require a premium aircraft. Errr wrong.
Just keep rolling up with 20 year old airframes. Premium pax love it. Nice one.
And on another note, not only fo's going, you can include captains as well.
The future is bright, the future is orange.
Just keep rolling up with 20 year old airframes. Premium pax love it. Nice one.And on another note, not only fo's going, you can include captains as well.
The future is bright, the future is orange.
And on another note, not only fo's going, you can include captains as well.
Nunc est bibendum
Of course Stevieg's theory is based upon being able to find any people prepared to fly for the crap T&Cs on offer with J* to crew the 787. Maybe they will, maybe they won't.
$180K AUD for a widebody command is still crap money even if you are living in Australia.
$180K AUD for a widebody command is still crap money even if you are living in Australia.
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When Manning told him thats the best thing he could have done (by leaving), was that because of the current outlook on the t & c on the 744 for him wasn't so good or some other reason?
Problem is though Keg that "they" could offer JQ crew a 30 percent payrise, and they'd still be cheaper than mainline.
Hope all is well with you. Still enjoying the -400?
Hope all is well with you. Still enjoying the -400?
Nunc est bibendum
Missing it actually....been off for a seven weeks because I can't see properly. Funny that people always thought I was one eyed and now it's very nearly true. Should be back to normal in the next six weeks.
The 744 is a complete world removed from the 767 though. Always funny listening to the guys talk about how 'hard' they work! I dug a trench the other day with another S/O up at our Church. Now THAT was hard work!
I just use the vibe from the movie Madagascar.....smile and wave boys, just smile and wave!
Sounds like you're enjoying the sandpit!
The 744 is a complete world removed from the 767 though. Always funny listening to the guys talk about how 'hard' they work! I dug a trench the other day with another S/O up at our Church. Now THAT was hard work!
I just use the vibe from the movie Madagascar.....smile and wave boys, just smile and wave!Sounds like you're enjoying the sandpit!
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So what some of you are saying, is that critical decisions on fleet aquisitions and aircraft deployment are made for industrial relations reasons?
Let me get this straight..Qantas management is happy to say to frequent flyers/premium passengers 'you can ride in this old aircraft for a few more years yet, because ultimately it means we can screw down pilots wages and that is good for our shareholders so like it or lump it'..?
I guess that means old 767's for a quite a few more years yet on cityflyer routes. Well as long as the shareholders are happy...
Let me get this straight..Qantas management is happy to say to frequent flyers/premium passengers 'you can ride in this old aircraft for a few more years yet, because ultimately it means we can screw down pilots wages and that is good for our shareholders so like it or lump it'..?
I guess that means old 767's for a quite a few more years yet on cityflyer routes. Well as long as the shareholders are happy...
On the money reeltime. It defies belief, however true.
The short term view is the strongest in managements eyes. It is through good luck that the pilot t&c trojan horse, aka as 'the jetstar contract that you qantas blokes will have', has been struck down with equine influenza due to the shortage of crew available immediately. (And this isn't a shot at jetstar crew.) However, had Dixon had what he really wanted, the carnage on mainline terms and conditions would have already commenced within the current eba negotitions.
And as for the premium punter, I feel sorry for the rubbish that is being delivered, when it comes to aircraft, on time performance and on board service.
The short term view is the strongest in managements eyes. It is through good luck that the pilot t&c trojan horse, aka as 'the jetstar contract that you qantas blokes will have', has been struck down with equine influenza due to the shortage of crew available immediately. (And this isn't a shot at jetstar crew.) However, had Dixon had what he really wanted, the carnage on mainline terms and conditions would have already commenced within the current eba negotitions.
And as for the premium punter, I feel sorry for the rubbish that is being delivered, when it comes to aircraft, on time performance and on board service.
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Is that why Qantas management are pushing for a 5 year EBA.
Is that why the 767 RR leases have been pushed out to coincide with the expiry of said EBA.
Voila, same time 787's mooted to come to Mainline.
Is this so Management can then use the full force of WorkChoice (or what ever little Johnny wants to call it this week) Operational redundancy or what ever it's called.
Here's a job at JetStar T&C's or there's the door.
Instead of Qantas pilots hovering around the 50th percentile for pay and conditions they will be down in the basement with their JetStar cousins.
That's progress Dixon style for you!
Is that why the 767 RR leases have been pushed out to coincide with the expiry of said EBA.
Voila, same time 787's mooted to come to Mainline.
Is this so Management can then use the full force of WorkChoice (or what ever little Johnny wants to call it this week) Operational redundancy or what ever it's called.
Here's a job at JetStar T&C's or there's the door.
Instead of Qantas pilots hovering around the 50th percentile for pay and conditions they will be down in the basement with their JetStar cousins.
That's progress Dixon style for you!