Jetstar A320 Go Around Melbourne
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After reading this thread, I can't help but link this to previously discussed topics.
As mentioned by an earlier post, are the holes in the swiss cheese becomming more aligned?
* Jetstar boss AJ reported as stating, if pilots aren't getting burnt out within 5/6 years, their not working hard enough.
* The letter to Jetstar crew some time ago from senior experienced pilots, highlighting the need to lift there standards. Then management publically criticising the authors of the letter.
* The reluctance of J* managament to allow line flight operations audits by outside parties. Whether that be QF audit or the University of Texas.
As mentioned by an earlier post, are the holes in the swiss cheese becomming more aligned?
* Jetstar boss AJ reported as stating, if pilots aren't getting burnt out within 5/6 years, their not working hard enough.
* The letter to Jetstar crew some time ago from senior experienced pilots, highlighting the need to lift there standards. Then management publically criticising the authors of the letter.
* The reluctance of J* managament to allow line flight operations audits by outside parties. Whether that be QF audit or the University of Texas.
"Set the thrust levers at TOGA and then retard the thrust levers as required........"
Wow Gnadenburg, word perfect from FCOM 3.03.23, also described in FCTM 02.170.1.
Wow Gnadenburg, word perfect from FCOM 3.03.23, also described in FCTM 02.170.1.
I am putting two and two together as to WTF " TOGA TAP " is ?
I find it incredulous that Airbus endorsed contributors to this thread would be aghast at a TOGA TAP. It is a well documented and practical application of the ATHR sytem to work within posssible, everyday operational restricitions- intermediate GA for example.
But then again, it is bewildering why such a technique would be applied at the minima.
I have mentioned it here ad nauseum for years. Airbus aircraft in the GA phase can present serious challenges. Mode confusion and disorientation ( spatial and from glass presentations ). Three crashes and the more recent OEB suggesting a number of close calls on NPA's.
Chimbu again suggests the J* training department is ex-Ansett. Perhaps, if there is the rumoured standards issues at J*, they could invest in a sim programme entailing regular 90 day checks like the old AN system.
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Amos
Not Airbus however... had the pilots concerned rotated sufficently, am I correct in believing that the aircraft would have entered "alpha floor," which, in this case, would have been a safer situation?
Keith Myath
I have my opinion and you, as an offended Jetstar pilot, have yours. I would ask you two things though;
1. Is there anything in my post(s) that is not factual?
2. Please identify the other operators that you have witnessed using a procedure known as "TOGA TAP"?
What has everyone learned from this incident?
1. Jetstar has cultural/ management problems.
2. They do not use Airbus recommended procedures.
3. You seem very pissed off at the truth.
Not Airbus however... had the pilots concerned rotated sufficently, am I correct in believing that the aircraft would have entered "alpha floor," which, in this case, would have been a safer situation?
Keith Myath
I have my opinion and you, as an offended Jetstar pilot, have yours. I would ask you two things though;
1. Is there anything in my post(s) that is not factual?
2. Please identify the other operators that you have witnessed using a procedure known as "TOGA TAP"?
What has everyone learned from this incident?
1. Jetstar has cultural/ management problems.
2. They do not use Airbus recommended procedures.
3. You seem very pissed off at the truth.
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Alpha Floor is not available below 100'RA. (Just ask the A320 lumberjack).
Unome, I have to say that Chimbu and Gnad have got it absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with the "TOGA Tap" when carried out under the right circumstances i.e. A go-around from a reasonable altitude in VMC for lets say a runway incursion or the likes. At the minima with 8/8.......probably not. However what appears to be driving your "aghastness" is a hatred of the operator rather than a reasoned approach to the subject at hand.
Unome, I have to say that Chimbu and Gnad have got it absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with the "TOGA Tap" when carried out under the right circumstances i.e. A go-around from a reasonable altitude in VMC for lets say a runway incursion or the likes. At the minima with 8/8.......probably not. However what appears to be driving your "aghastness" is a hatred of the operator rather than a reasoned approach to the subject at hand.
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El Kabong
As bad luck would have it, I am laid up for a few days with a crook leg and therefore drawn to Pprune...
In regard to Alpha Floor, I assumed that they commenced the go around at the minima, which for Cat 1, should be above 100' AGL.
In regard to Jetstar, I have only related the facts as they have been widely reported elsewhere. This includes in the offices at CASA.
I have no desire or need to join Jetstar and no hatred of Jetstar.
Many posters have highlighted the problems created by the Qantas/ Impluse/ Ansett, triangle of destruction, yet you allow them their say. Why attack me?
While I do not agree with the Jetstar practice of "TOGA TAP", I do agree that AFTER a positive climb is established, flap retracted one stage, gear retracted, the thrust could be reduced.
What ever happened to "flying the aircraft??"
As bad luck would have it, I am laid up for a few days with a crook leg and therefore drawn to Pprune...
In regard to Alpha Floor, I assumed that they commenced the go around at the minima, which for Cat 1, should be above 100' AGL.
In regard to Jetstar, I have only related the facts as they have been widely reported elsewhere. This includes in the offices at CASA.
I have no desire or need to join Jetstar and no hatred of Jetstar.
Many posters have highlighted the problems created by the Qantas/ Impluse/ Ansett, triangle of destruction, yet you allow them their say. Why attack me?
While I do not agree with the Jetstar practice of "TOGA TAP", I do agree that AFTER a positive climb is established, flap retracted one stage, gear retracted, the thrust could be reduced.
What ever happened to "flying the aircraft??"
Grandpa Aerotart
Gnads it is a fact...I will quote for you the reply I got when chatting to an ex AN mate a few weeks ago and I asked him if he was interested in J*. "Nope...Flight Ops full of ex AN guys and they managed to find most of the idiots".
Maybe it's a Melbourne Club/Brisbane Club thing
Perhaps rather than 90 days they could just try big T little C ?
Haughtney....me too
Keg...for intermediate GA try GA/FLCH/HDG SEL...gets you out of LOC/GS without fuss...works a treat
Maybe it's a Melbourne Club/Brisbane Club thing
Perhaps rather than 90 days they could just try big T little C ?
Haughtney....me too
Keg...for intermediate GA try GA/FLCH/HDG SEL...gets you out of LOC/GS without fuss...works a treat
Was that me you were talking too? 
But what of the standards issues? Perhaps they should invest in more regular training. Six monthly regulatory "checks" can only facilitate so much training.
But what of the standards issues? Perhaps they should invest in more regular training. Six monthly regulatory "checks" can only facilitate so much training.
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Stupid question but what happens if you fail a check or a sim with Jetstar? I heard a story the other day, but doubt it is true, that you have to pay for the next sim. Is this true or complete rubbish?
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Sorry Unome, wasn't meant to be personal, just that any incident that occurs instigates an instant attack on J*, yet very little said if an incident should occur "elsewhere".
True that the "tap" may have been instigated at the minima but if the aircraft was allowed to descend below 100RA, the alpha floor is not activated. Alpha floor requires a combination of AoA and speed (varies depending on weight and config) and to be above 100' in order to activate.
Hope the leg gets better soon. I on the other hand have no excuse for trawling through the prune.
True that the "tap" may have been instigated at the minima but if the aircraft was allowed to descend below 100RA, the alpha floor is not activated. Alpha floor requires a combination of AoA and speed (varies depending on weight and config) and to be above 100' in order to activate.
Hope the leg gets better soon. I on the other hand have no excuse for trawling through the prune.
AnQrKa...
I disagree, not for this circumstance, but what about day VMC from say 500ft with the runway occupied and joining to the visual circuit?
Keeping TOGA in a light-weight aircraft until Engine-Out Accel means you're already at circuit altitude and things can get very rushed as one levels out while accelerating and trying to capture F1 and S-speed if yu haven't reduced to CLB thrust in a timely fashion.
Just a thought...
Keeping TOGA in a light-weight aircraft until Engine-Out Accel means you're already at circuit altitude and things can get very rushed as one levels out while accelerating and trying to capture F1 and S-speed if yu haven't reduced to CLB thrust in a timely fashion.
Just a thought...
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In regard to Jetstar, I have only related the facts as they have been widely reported elsewhere. This includes in the offices at CASA.
What a joke CASA
Many posters have highlighted the problems created by the Qantas/ Impluse/ Ansett, triangle of destruction, yet you allow them their say. Why attack me?
Maybe you were attacked by the way you posted. Amazing you people seem to know more about the Bus than the operators with over 20 years experience.
THere is nothing wrong with the TOGA tap if done at a safe height. Obviously you clowns it is not done at the minima. The incident in question was not this but the thrust levers went to MCT instead of TOGA and not monitoring the PFD as to what mode the FMS was in. Which in the heat of the moment can be done. The Bus is a complex machine and hence these incidents do occur from time to time.
If you did not use the TOGA tap and are just under the height you intend to capture and went to TOGA you would very quickly accellerate and run the risk of overspeed from which many a bus driver can attest to. Especially if light. The procedure is to bring back the thrust lever when LEVER CLB is displayed on the FMS which is usually the acceleration height edited in the PERF page. And remember the whole situation occurs in a matter of seconds.
Flying a Bus is a completely different ball game to your out dated turbo prop or jet. Trust me.
What a joke CASA
Many posters have highlighted the problems created by the Qantas/ Impluse/ Ansett, triangle of destruction, yet you allow them their say. Why attack me?
Maybe you were attacked by the way you posted. Amazing you people seem to know more about the Bus than the operators with over 20 years experience.
THere is nothing wrong with the TOGA tap if done at a safe height. Obviously you clowns it is not done at the minima. The incident in question was not this but the thrust levers went to MCT instead of TOGA and not monitoring the PFD as to what mode the FMS was in. Which in the heat of the moment can be done. The Bus is a complex machine and hence these incidents do occur from time to time.
If you did not use the TOGA tap and are just under the height you intend to capture and went to TOGA you would very quickly accellerate and run the risk of overspeed from which many a bus driver can attest to. Especially if light. The procedure is to bring back the thrust lever when LEVER CLB is displayed on the FMS which is usually the acceleration height edited in the PERF page. And remember the whole situation occurs in a matter of seconds.
Flying a Bus is a completely different ball game to your out dated turbo prop or jet. Trust me.
Last edited by captaintunedog777; 2nd Nov 2007 at 09:14.
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Tunedog,
You almost answered your own post.
Believe me the A320 is far from a sophisticated state of the art machine, it is as you allude to over 20 years old.
The problem is twofold, Airbus have had almost 26 years to sort this heap of crap out, and have failed dismally.
And those issues which have been addressed have had their usefullness eroded because the guys with 20 years experience insist on flying it the old way.
As Impulse / QF Link, the 717 operation was subject to LOSA and QF audits, in most areas I understand they came up fairly well.
But now, the blue shirts have taken hold and know better, go figure?
Almost every senior position in the C and t department is filled by ex AN boys club and the troops get a bit tired of it all.
They continually go outside the current cohort of pilots to get the experience they are looking for, what a crock.
Sh**load of experience in international ops inherent in the group already, loads of Boeing time there to.
An interesting question, when AN got a new type, they did not crew from externally to get the experience, so what has changed.
Trained right, pilots can transition to new types comfortably, been happening for years.
Just the GMFO trying to get a warm and fuzzy without spending the dollars on training I guess.
Gunna cost a lot more when one bites the dust.
You almost answered your own post.
Believe me the A320 is far from a sophisticated state of the art machine, it is as you allude to over 20 years old.
The problem is twofold, Airbus have had almost 26 years to sort this heap of crap out, and have failed dismally.
And those issues which have been addressed have had their usefullness eroded because the guys with 20 years experience insist on flying it the old way.
As Impulse / QF Link, the 717 operation was subject to LOSA and QF audits, in most areas I understand they came up fairly well.
But now, the blue shirts have taken hold and know better, go figure?
Almost every senior position in the C and t department is filled by ex AN boys club and the troops get a bit tired of it all.
They continually go outside the current cohort of pilots to get the experience they are looking for, what a crock.
Sh**load of experience in international ops inherent in the group already, loads of Boeing time there to.
An interesting question, when AN got a new type, they did not crew from externally to get the experience, so what has changed.
Trained right, pilots can transition to new types comfortably, been happening for years.
Just the GMFO trying to get a warm and fuzzy without spending the dollars on training I guess.
Gunna cost a lot more when one bites the dust.
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Yep topgun
It is a heap of crap and complicated at that. Compared to a late generation boeing it is in the stoneage. Why they never updated it. I don't know. Prob cost or commonality.
But if you are not careful in situations like a go around, going to track mode when flying a managed approach approaching the minima or the other silly assed thing like puting a fix line within i think it is .2nm of the rway threshold where by the FMGC will dump all the flight plan data entered. This a/c will catch you.
It is a heap of crap and complicated at that. Compared to a late generation boeing it is in the stoneage. Why they never updated it. I don't know. Prob cost or commonality.
But if you are not careful in situations like a go around, going to track mode when flying a managed approach approaching the minima or the other silly assed thing like puting a fix line within i think it is .2nm of the rway threshold where by the FMGC will dump all the flight plan data entered. This a/c will catch you.
For all it's failings, those that struggle with Airbus the most, would appear to struggle on other types aswell.
" I think it is "- if the two preceding posters are from J*. I have flown my last passenger flight with that outfit. 
But if you are not careful in situations like a go around, going to track mode when flying a managed approach approaching the minima or the other silly assed thing like puting a fix line within i think it is .2nm of the rway threshold where by the FMGC will dump all the flight plan data entered. This a/c will catch you.
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Sorry shags I am not
However. "I think it is" You wanna elaborate and contribute constructively. It has been a while since I flew a 320 and I can not recall specifics. It was an OEB.
True those who struggled with other types will fail the 320.
However. "I think it is" You wanna elaborate and contribute constructively. It has been a while since I flew a 320 and I can not recall specifics. It was an OEB.
True those who struggled with other types will fail the 320.
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So does this mean Gnadenburg that you will continue to fly with J*?
It is a strange aeroplane that requires the thrust levers to sort out a problem with the FMS. On the Boeing (if my memory serves me correctly), TO/GA wasn't required to restring the flight plan. The problem with the A320 is that it was designed by engineers and the flight crew were expected to fit in. The latest generation of aircraft have had the lessons of automation issues incorporated into their design.
The reason Ansett didn't need to get external experience for a new type was that they had a stable workforce and they didn't expand at the rate that airlines in Australia currently are. However when they got 747's and started International Operations they did get external experience and that ended with tears. They then went to get experience from Qantas and TJ was the best they could come up with.
It is a strange aeroplane that requires the thrust levers to sort out a problem with the FMS. On the Boeing (if my memory serves me correctly), TO/GA wasn't required to restring the flight plan. The problem with the A320 is that it was designed by engineers and the flight crew were expected to fit in. The latest generation of aircraft have had the lessons of automation issues incorporated into their design.
The reason Ansett didn't need to get external experience for a new type was that they had a stable workforce and they didn't expand at the rate that airlines in Australia currently are. However when they got 747's and started International Operations they did get external experience and that ended with tears. They then went to get experience from Qantas and TJ was the best they could come up with.