Asic - The Great Con Job
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Asic - the great con and ripoff
well well, obviously mate you are another spoonfed person who can't see beyond your nose.......$190 for what mate....we did not ask for it so why should we pay for it (ASIC) matey.
They (the 5 government departments behind this debacle) can do it themselves (the security checking) without us being involved and without us paying for it.
And I will repeat it once again...AIRSIDE EUROPE WITH MY COMPANY ISSUED AVIATION ID CARD....yes thats what I call getting out there mate!
Next time mate read the thread!
They (the 5 government departments behind this debacle) can do it themselves (the security checking) without us being involved and without us paying for it.
And I will repeat it once again...AIRSIDE EUROPE WITH MY COMPANY ISSUED AVIATION ID CARD....yes thats what I call getting out there mate!
Next time mate read the thread!
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Asics the great ripoff and con job
Hello Haughtney1 and ACMS....well well if you look up the Australian Transport Security Regulations 2005, page 74, subsection 3.05. subparagraph a(ii) you will note that:
....the Foreign Crews who carry the 21 million passengers in/out of AUSTRALIA every year mateys only have to display a COMPANY ISSUED ID CARD !!! its in the Regs.
And for you blind believers....NO MENTION OF ICAO cards mates....both of you have been misled obviously.
Whats good for the goose is good for the gander......replace ASICS with company issued ID card at 1/10th of the cost and stuffups.
Those faceless people who think we are all crooks can do whatever behind the scenes because THEY ARE CERTAINLY NOT DOING IT TO ALL THE THOUSANDS OF FOREIGN CREW and I dont expect them to either as they can't even handle the ones they have got.
Lets get a level playing field!......ALL or NONE...the great aviation con.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Emu, to quote an oft used recommendation by a couple of other very wise PPRUNERs. "Take a Bex and have a lie down".
Believe it or not, there are far more significant problems in ATSRs and associated compliance. People throwing their teddy out of the cot and screaming "don't want to" or "can't make me" doesn't even register in the grand scheme of things.
I have people working around me probably earning far less than your good self who acknowledge and fully accept the need for the card. Before you continue on your tyrade about being conned by govt or other conspiracty theories they are in fact very normal and rational every day folk.
Believe it or not, there are far more significant problems in ATSRs and associated compliance. People throwing their teddy out of the cot and screaming "don't want to" or "can't make me" doesn't even register in the grand scheme of things.
I have people working around me probably earning far less than your good self who acknowledge and fully accept the need for the card. Before you continue on your tyrade about being conned by govt or other conspiracty theories they are in fact very normal and rational every day folk.
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Asic the great con and ripoff
hello islander jock.....interesting that you find time to tell me to take a bex but you cant put positive pen to paper and have an informative and mature discussion about this subject that will eventually...directly...cost the industry/pilots more than 130 million dollars over a 20 year period.
its obvious you dont pay for your ASIC!
sad to say but the ASIC system of checking ONLY domestic pilots is a con job and a ripoff!
and NO, I don't need a bex, it might cause me to test positive in the company D & A tests.
Thank christ I am in Europe...AIRSIDE....with my COMPANY issued ID card that costs less than $10.
its obvious you dont pay for your ASIC!
sad to say but the ASIC system of checking ONLY domestic pilots is a con job and a ripoff!
and NO, I don't need a bex, it might cause me to test positive in the company D & A tests.
Thank christ I am in Europe...AIRSIDE....with my COMPANY issued ID card that costs less than $10.
Last edited by emu787; 23rd Aug 2007 at 08:39. Reason: spelling
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Emu,
A good deal of my day is spent in direct contact with senior DOTARS and airline security staff discussing these and other security matters and the inherent problems they create .
Does an ASIC make aviation any safer? Probably not. But it does provide a system whereby anyone who gets their hands on an Australian registered aircraft as PIC to fly to a security controlled airport has been suitablly checked. It is on that basis then that we can perhaps argue more convincingly to remove the requirements for making pilots go through the ludicrous screening process at airports. You can't have it both ways... no screening and no ASIC. I reckon if you asked the majority, they would tell you they would much rather have the little plastic card on a lanyard around their neck as opposed to continually emptying their pockets, taking their belts and shoes off and going through metal detectors.
As much as it frustrates, ranting and raving on PPRUNE will have as much effect of changing the rules as p1ssing yourself in a wetsuit. You will get a short term warm sensation but no one will probably notice. We can maybe argue about the price but as AUSCHECK have just been through a very thorough process of full disclosure of costs to implement the program, I don't think you are going to see much movement there either. A fairer system surely would be to maybe make it a 5 year life as for the MSIC.
Not that it's really relevant to this topic but yes I do in fact pay for my own ASIC.
A good deal of my day is spent in direct contact with senior DOTARS and airline security staff discussing these and other security matters and the inherent problems they create .
Does an ASIC make aviation any safer? Probably not. But it does provide a system whereby anyone who gets their hands on an Australian registered aircraft as PIC to fly to a security controlled airport has been suitablly checked. It is on that basis then that we can perhaps argue more convincingly to remove the requirements for making pilots go through the ludicrous screening process at airports. You can't have it both ways... no screening and no ASIC. I reckon if you asked the majority, they would tell you they would much rather have the little plastic card on a lanyard around their neck as opposed to continually emptying their pockets, taking their belts and shoes off and going through metal detectors.
As much as it frustrates, ranting and raving on PPRUNE will have as much effect of changing the rules as p1ssing yourself in a wetsuit. You will get a short term warm sensation but no one will probably notice. We can maybe argue about the price but as AUSCHECK have just been through a very thorough process of full disclosure of costs to implement the program, I don't think you are going to see much movement there either. A fairer system surely would be to maybe make it a 5 year life as for the MSIC.
Not that it's really relevant to this topic but yes I do in fact pay for my own ASIC.
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Emu,
Just a stupid question. If you are indeed in Europe and work and live there, why do you care two beans about the ASIC process/debacle/ (insert appropriate emotive word here)?
Surely you can't be serious?
You seem particularly upset for an (alleged) observer from afar.
Z.
Just a stupid question. If you are indeed in Europe and work and live there, why do you care two beans about the ASIC process/debacle/ (insert appropriate emotive word here)?
Surely you can't be serious?
You seem particularly upset for an (alleged) observer from afar.
Z.
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I tend to agree with our British Aviations Finest Jockey. Why can't the ASIC's be 5 years and if you did something stupid or dodgy you have to tell them anyway. The other piece of reform I'd like to see would be, no drama with full price for initial issue but renewals should be cheaper and not involve the same convoluted multi agency clearences that have already been done. Nothing like handing in your old one then waiting 8 weeks for the new one to get some perspective, especially when the old one was still valid.
As to other nationals coming into our airports with company issued cards, one must always remember security is not always seen. There are many ways to skin a cat and people might not be completely aware of the things that are done to make us safer. I'd like to think we're smarter than checking cards.
I do remember wandering around the odd middle east aerodrome with a company card and no one blinked an eye. They just pointed the semi's at me and asked what the strange aircraft did.
As to other nationals coming into our airports with company issued cards, one must always remember security is not always seen. There are many ways to skin a cat and people might not be completely aware of the things that are done to make us safer. I'd like to think we're smarter than checking cards.
I do remember wandering around the odd middle east aerodrome with a company card and no one blinked an eye. They just pointed the semi's at me and asked what the strange aircraft did.
Last edited by Whiskey Oscar Golf; 23rd Aug 2007 at 11:45. Reason: Grannma
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Regardless of whether ASICS are good or not sleepers would be able to get one anyway and work their way up to a flying position in a commercial jet. As much as the media like to make out most terrorists have no blots on their record at all, for a deliberate reason, because it will arouse suspicion. If CASA was serious about security they would mandate double cockpit doors because you dont need to be an ASIC holder to be a passenger and it is still highly vulnerable with that door opening and closing all the time. Still that wont stop a sleeper being in the cockpit at least its a start though
ASIC is all about red tape which has spiralled out of control the last decade or so, most of the damn politicians studied law thats why we find ourselves in this debacle. just my 0.25% rate rise worth!
Notedited for spelling
ASIC is all about red tape which has spiralled out of control the last decade or so, most of the damn politicians studied law thats why we find ourselves in this debacle. just my 0.25% rate rise worth!
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IJ.
That is only going to benefit a small percentage of Australian pilots who actually operate from major airports.
It will do nothing for the large majority who are saddled with the idiotic ASIC requirements that presume we are dangerous individuals, requiring biannual loyalty checks so we can stop off at places like Coober Pedy or Halls Creek.
Bah..
It is on that basis then that we can perhaps argue more convincingly to remove the requirements for making pilots go through the ludicrous screening process at airports. You can't have it both ways... no screening and no ASIC. I reckon if you asked the majority, they would tell you they would much rather have the little plastic card on a lanyard around their neck as opposed to continually emptying their pockets, taking their belts and shoes off and going through metal detectors.
It will do nothing for the large majority who are saddled with the idiotic ASIC requirements that presume we are dangerous individuals, requiring biannual loyalty checks so we can stop off at places like Coober Pedy or Halls Creek.
Bah..
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Biggles,
Agree fully mate. You would't believe the outback buttf*&k places you are required to have an ASIC. The best we could possibly hope for though is either some reduction in the fees or increase in the validity period. Otherwise short of some major shift in the thinking by those with a vested interest in all of us sticking to the status quo, we are going to see ASICs around for a very long time indeed. Nothing would make me happier to be proved wrong on that point.
Agree fully mate. You would't believe the outback buttf*&k places you are required to have an ASIC. The best we could possibly hope for though is either some reduction in the fees or increase in the validity period. Otherwise short of some major shift in the thinking by those with a vested interest in all of us sticking to the status quo, we are going to see ASICs around for a very long time indeed. Nothing would make me happier to be proved wrong on that point.
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I too am airside overseas with an asic card and heavy vehicle drivers licence issued in NSW. Have a guess which card every one is accepting, you guessed it they have no idea what to do with an asic card,or even what it is.They take all my details from my drivers licence(which actually does have information about me on it!!!!!)
My asic card now resides in my brief case at the hotel, while my drivers licence is now in my asic card holder!!!!!!
Right or wrong the asic card is not working and we already have that much ID required today it is just another case of beaurocracy gone mad, what with Passport, drivers licence, boat licence, pilots licence,Asic, work cover machinery licence, nurseing licence etc etc etc. Just replace it with one card for everything, just imagine one set of checks, one form to fill out etc etc etc, anyway I think you get my drift.
I WOULD MUCH PREFERRE TO FILL OUT ONE FORM EVERY FIVE YEARS AND NOT FIVE FORMS EVERY YEAR.
My asic card now resides in my brief case at the hotel, while my drivers licence is now in my asic card holder!!!!!!
Right or wrong the asic card is not working and we already have that much ID required today it is just another case of beaurocracy gone mad, what with Passport, drivers licence, boat licence, pilots licence,Asic, work cover machinery licence, nurseing licence etc etc etc. Just replace it with one card for everything, just imagine one set of checks, one form to fill out etc etc etc, anyway I think you get my drift.
I WOULD MUCH PREFERRE TO FILL OUT ONE FORM EVERY FIVE YEARS AND NOT FIVE FORMS EVERY YEAR.
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Ascic Cards
Crickey emu787 you hit the nail on the head,There should be a national revolt,enough is enough,We should all get behind emu and boycott this dumd card,My drivers licence has more authority overseas air side than this ASCIC CARD.$190 is joke,Typical of gov dept.
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Hello is there anybody out there!!!!
I was hoping that this would get debated some more, as I believe that My experiences have shown how floored this Asic issue really is. Security is needed but not just with aviation or the fuel industry or the fertiliser industry etc etc etc. So lets get something that works for all under 1 umbrella instead of every goverment body doing their own thing at the cost of the Australian people.
I was hoping that this would get debated some more, as I believe that My experiences have shown how floored this Asic issue really is. Security is needed but not just with aviation or the fuel industry or the fertiliser industry etc etc etc. So lets get something that works for all under 1 umbrella instead of every goverment body doing their own thing at the cost of the Australian people.
Sorry Murlow,
But political expediency demands that "special" attention (over and above "everyday" things like drivers' licences) needs to be given and provided for in times of "crisis" to address issues of closing the gate after the horse has bolted.
Then of course, special rules are introduced to ensure that such politicians involved are not inconvenienced by those same rules that are applicable to everyone else.
"Four legs good, two legs bad!"
But political expediency demands that "special" attention (over and above "everyday" things like drivers' licences) needs to be given and provided for in times of "crisis" to address issues of closing the gate after the horse has bolted.
Then of course, special rules are introduced to ensure that such politicians involved are not inconvenienced by those same rules that are applicable to everyone else.
"Four legs good, two legs bad!"
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P *&^&%& Off
Yes I cannot agree more with you FLEX, but while you have gotten over it and are able to smile now, I'm still on the raging bull path (I do envey you). I am just sick and tired of the government using my (OUR) money with no regard to what is working or indeed what is already in place and working but may only need a little add on. What I am saying is have One security check for all, why is aviation so special that it has to be on its own. It is about time our industry came out of the dark ages and grew up and fitted in with the rest of Australian industry ( so CASA get a grip Aviation in Australia is only pimple on the arse of the universe). Remember it is my drivers licence that is WORKING not that stupit grease scraper(ASIC).But I suppose if they listened to me poor OLD CASA would not have much to do!!
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Oz went the expensive way
Emu has a point, ASIC has cost the industry heaps & the fees are a burden on the individual pilot. No doubt these fees in Australia will increase over time.
It did not have to be that way.
Even after the terrible events of 9/11, when the TSA "tookover" US airport security, there was a similar scheme suggested, however the final (sensible) codified regulation is that an FAA airmans certificate is only valid with photo ID. This ID includes Company ID, a driver license or passport etc.
There is still no fee for the FAA to issue licenses, or ratings etc, let alone medical certificates, however if you need a replacement certificate, you need to send (or credit card on their website) US$2.00 (same fee for 20 years) and they will send you via first class mail a new plastic hologramed license featuring Orville & Wilbur Wright in commemoration of 100 years of powered flight.
Being a foreign carrier driver (Non US), my regulator and airline issues lots of paper/plastic etc. but I don't have to pay for it.
It did not have to be that way.
Even after the terrible events of 9/11, when the TSA "tookover" US airport security, there was a similar scheme suggested, however the final (sensible) codified regulation is that an FAA airmans certificate is only valid with photo ID. This ID includes Company ID, a driver license or passport etc.
There is still no fee for the FAA to issue licenses, or ratings etc, let alone medical certificates, however if you need a replacement certificate, you need to send (or credit card on their website) US$2.00 (same fee for 20 years) and they will send you via first class mail a new plastic hologramed license featuring Orville & Wilbur Wright in commemoration of 100 years of powered flight.
Being a foreign carrier driver (Non US), my regulator and airline issues lots of paper/plastic etc. but I don't have to pay for it.
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Asic - the great con job and ripoff
well they fought in two world wars to preserve democracy but where is the democracy when they (the blunt minded sharp penciled bureaucrats) dictate that YOU WILL WEAR IT AND YOU WILL PAY FOR IT.....is that democracy or dictatorship?
While we the domestic pilots are subject to dictatorial regulations the foreign crew who carry more than 20 million passengers in/out of Australia every year only have to wear a COMPANY issued $2 ID Card.
How about a National NO ASIC day....no problem for security...we will be denied access and told to go home and the only planes flying will be the INTERNATIONAL planes with crew that don't have ASIC's .....what will the public say to the Minister then!!!!!!!!
While we the domestic pilots are subject to dictatorial regulations the foreign crew who carry more than 20 million passengers in/out of Australia every year only have to wear a COMPANY issued $2 ID Card.
How about a National NO ASIC day....no problem for security...we will be denied access and told to go home and the only planes flying will be the INTERNATIONAL planes with crew that don't have ASIC's .....what will the public say to the Minister then!!!!!!!!
Last edited by emu787; 28th Aug 2007 at 10:05. Reason: spelling
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As a "foreigner" I needed an ASIC to fly GA in OZ. So I applied, and after a couple of months they wrote to me and said words to the effect, "you're foreign, we need two primary methods of ID and three secondary."
OK says I, have a UK passport for one, and as I don't have an Oz driving licence, how about a current ICAO flight crew ID card? It must show that at least some suitable background check has been done on me. (Note, ICAO card, not Company ID.)
Ooooh not in the regulations that one. Do you have an Australian utility bill with your name on it? Ummm, no. But how on earth can a utility bill have a higher security clearance than an ICAO ID? Maybe if I wear my electric bill round my neck I will be let airside?
We eventually agreed on my local DAME writing on a piece of paper with his stamp that I am who I am, and that was accepted as my second primary ID.
Pity my AME's name wasn't Osama al Charlatan or similar, which would have got Canberra going for a while...
My ASIC expires in December. Is it worth renewing or will New Labour trash the idea?
OK says I, have a UK passport for one, and as I don't have an Oz driving licence, how about a current ICAO flight crew ID card? It must show that at least some suitable background check has been done on me. (Note, ICAO card, not Company ID.)
Ooooh not in the regulations that one. Do you have an Australian utility bill with your name on it? Ummm, no. But how on earth can a utility bill have a higher security clearance than an ICAO ID? Maybe if I wear my electric bill round my neck I will be let airside?
We eventually agreed on my local DAME writing on a piece of paper with his stamp that I am who I am, and that was accepted as my second primary ID.
Pity my AME's name wasn't Osama al Charlatan or similar, which would have got Canberra going for a while...
My ASIC expires in December. Is it worth renewing or will New Labour trash the idea?
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moosp,
Complaints and frustrations about the worth and necessity of an ASIC aside, and yes I do believe they are a bloody waste of time. Your best bet to renew your ASIC would be to go through www.aviationidaustralia.net.au Do NOT repeat NOT apply through CASA. Issuing ASICs is not part of their core business and this is reflected in the fact that they are probably the most inefficient Issuing Authorty of all.
Complaints and frustrations about the worth and necessity of an ASIC aside, and yes I do believe they are a bloody waste of time. Your best bet to renew your ASIC would be to go through www.aviationidaustralia.net.au Do NOT repeat NOT apply through CASA. Issuing ASICs is not part of their core business and this is reflected in the fact that they are probably the most inefficient Issuing Authorty of all.