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Question to JetStar pilots

Old 10th Aug 2007, 04:16
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Question to JetStar pilots

With the news of the imminent arrival of Qantas' new Chairman ,Leigh Clifford, and the headlines such as "Dixon finds a supporter on IR"
or "Dixon finds a fellow IR warrior in former Rio Tinto boss"
or "Dixon created JetStar as a means of shifting the IR goal posts"
One can only summise that the industrial climate is about to get hotter, much hotter.
At present I sense a certain smugness emanating from some JetStar pilots, no doubt bolstered by their belief that they are cheaper than Qantas and therefore favoured.

My question is ,let us suppose Dixon wins his ideologically driven, government backed and sanctioned industrial war and Qantas pilots end up on a JetStar inspired contract, who will get the spoils then, when there is no longer any productivity/cost difference?

The Legacy pilots who are extensively trained to a standard, or the LCC pilots who are trained to a price?

I wonder who CASA would favour, I wonder who Qantas' insurance underwriters would favour, I wonder who the shareholders would favour?

Maybe you could then regain the high ground by signing a new contract that gives you back that competitive edge so as not to pollute that culture.l

A true example of how WorkChoices will work as dreamed up by the big end of town.

Last edited by max autobrakes; 10th Aug 2007 at 04:28.
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Old 10th Aug 2007, 04:47
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"let us suppose Dixon wins . . "

Do you think there is any doubt?

" . . . and Qantas pilots end up on a JetStar inspired contract"

Dont you mean that Qantas pilots will end up working for Jetstar or will be shown the door.

"The Legacy pilots who are extensively trained to a standard, or the LCC pilots who are trained to a price?"

Probably the cheaper ones that dont crash as apposed to the expensive ones that dont crash (assuming we turn a blind eye on BKK). Just like the rest of the world my friend.

"I wonder who Qantas' insurance underwriters would favour"

The insurance underwriters for Qantas also insure carriers in Asia and the Middle East. Jetstar pilots are deemed suitably trained by the governing body of Australia and that is all the insurance company is generally interested in.

"Maybe you could then regain the high ground by signing a new contract that gives you back that competitive edge so as not to pollute that culture."

Maybe Qantas pilots will begin to compete in the labor market instead of relying on an outdated principle of Government protection and militant unionism. The sooner you accept change the sooner you will move from victim to participant.
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Old 10th Aug 2007, 05:11
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I've heard that Qantas' command training is so poor that only about half pass it on first try. Is this true? Or was a QF pilot pulling my leg?
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Old 10th Aug 2007, 08:11
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You know, they deny and deny, but every now and then one of the Gods Of Aviation just has to pipe up and let us know how much better they are than mere mortals.
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Old 10th Aug 2007, 08:19
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Moderators - please move this back to Dunnunda & Godzone.


It's embarrassing when these sorts publicly unleash their self loving, insular and inflated opinion of themselves into the international forum



Honestly, you just can't take some people anywhere
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Old 10th Aug 2007, 16:09
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I love engaging in a debate where the winning argument is made by the opposing side.

"I am a legacy pilot. Therefore I am".

Perhaps the real issue here is that only "legacy pilots" are allowed to be smug?
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Old 11th Aug 2007, 00:05
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I very much doubt in the current environment (ww pilot shortage) that QF are going to cut too far with their pilots.

Jetstar are struggling to recruit to fill their current aircraft orders.

As I have said before, ,Jetstar protects QF pilots T & C.

However, QF pilots may need to look at their current contract in light of competition from other carriers. Will AU $350 - $400k plus oncosts be competitive for an A380 Captain compared to other operators, particularly given the limitations of CAO 48, Home Transport rules etc. etc.?

I would suggest that if you take a basket of Legacy carriers and find that you are on one of the best packages then there is probably only two scenario's, sideways or down.
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Old 11th Aug 2007, 00:34
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Talking

Max. Darwin, Canberra, Sydney and a particular golf course somewhere O/S. Ring a bell Warren?
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Old 11th Aug 2007, 01:24
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Maxauto,

With a pilot of your obvious excellence, maybe it's time to take up a roll with nasa and command the first human flight to the Red Plantet!!!!!
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Old 11th Aug 2007, 01:37
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The Legacy pilots who are extensively trained to a standard, or the LCC pilots who are trained to a price?
You really let yourself down with that throwaway line, Max.
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Old 11th Aug 2007, 06:34
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-JJW

Will AU $350 - $400k plus oncosts be competitive for an A380 Captain compared to other operators
You've been reading too many newspaper articles where the figures have been provided by Darth. I'm a Captain on the highest paying QF type (B744) and my Group Certificate income (which includes allowances) was in the mid $200k range. QF pilots are not as overpaid as the pro QF management journalists would have you believe. Most QF pilots expect that the A380 pay rate will only be a few percent above the B744.

Overseas carriers are now increasing the packages on offer because of the pilot shortage (eg CX are offering over $300K pa for Simulator Instructors) and it won't be long before QF salaries will look like LCC salaries to overseas pilots.
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Old 12th Aug 2007, 03:14
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Legacy?????

What's all this "legacy" stuff about anyway?
Qantas is an airline, like the others.
This sounds like the nonsense we see on TV when some car company brings out a new model, that's got a "17 channel spiflicated gooferriser" and you have just got to have one.
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Old 12th Aug 2007, 13:08
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GB, only mid 200's last fy? I know a couple of 73 skippers who earnt very close to that figure as well...they flew their backsides off mind you.
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Old 12th Aug 2007, 15:53
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What a bunch of pricks some of you are. The gods are paid more than the rest so they have to come down because of change. No wonder the industry's stuffed, professor.
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Old 12th Aug 2007, 23:15
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Seconded, Bloggs.

One sage once told me "There will always be someone somewhere who is flying bigger, faster, newer equipment than you, on more money."

I know for a fact that QF pilots as a group are no better or no worse than JQ, VB, or any other mob that you care to name.

Its good to have a bit of pride in your profession and in your organisation. Bit of history, all good. But don't think it doesn't exist elsewhere. This "tribalism" was invented by pinheads, and some of us maintain it. D'oh!

l wouldn't mind the extra money that is made at some other outfits. I'm not so sure I'd like to work at a place like QF or VB, don't know if I could take the 'culture', but thats another discussion.

I am dead pleased that they earn good money and that they are moving the marker up. More of it I say. Push the benchmark up, don't drag it down!

And if the rumour of $200k+ salaries at Tiger turns out to be true, I will be pleased but I won't be applying.

Move it up, boys! I'll keep my roster, my bionic DC-9, and no back of the clock flying and push my mob to move the money up towards yours.

Win win.
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Old 13th Aug 2007, 01:06
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While on the topic of questions to Jetstar pilots.

Any truth to the rumour going round that there are insufficient crews to operate two A320's from late September?

Heard that there may be a reduced flying schedule.

Anyone heard anything similar?
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Old 13th Aug 2007, 01:17
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mst ctn,

maybe true...keep getting called by crewing to change roster and have been called on all avail days lately...

however, there is a lot of newbies training at the moment!!
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Old 13th Aug 2007, 01:39
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Well gentlemen this little tread starter has certainly caused some vitriol.
From the tone of some of the contributors one would think that professional organisations have no place in the ongoing debate about the "rationalisation" of the Australian workplace.
I suppose these same gentlemen also believe that the AMA have no place in commenting or input into the standards pertaining to foreign doctors practicing in Australia .

Well Professor you are quite correct, all airlines have insurance. Do all airlines pay the same premiums though? What exactly do the actaries look at when calculating those premiums.
As to if Dixon will get his way, who knows ,there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge yet!
One thing is for sure if the present incarnation of AIPA acted like the JPC or the old AIPA then your taunt would certainly have more credence.

To a number of other contributors and the whole indignation about standards. A simple question really, if JetStar can get away with less Initial Training Sims ,cyclics and training than the rest of the Qantas Group (as the Regulations and the Regulator allow them to) ,why can't or won't Qantas demand the same and save themselves a lot of money?

As to that perennial hairy chestnut, Bangkok and the golf course.
Have any of the wise arses who use this as an example of trying to bring the so called "sky gods " down to earth actually taken the time to read and analyse the ATSB report?
If you had one would soon realise that this is what happens when management go down the path of unfettered cost cutting.
Here are some of the ATSB's conclusions, see if what I'm saying holds any water as to if this accident should be a warning about the perils of affordable safety !

-The flight crew didn't use an adequate risk management stategy for the approach and landing, the error was primarily due to the absence of appropriate company procedures and training.
-Company-published information, Deficient.
-Procedures and training of crew ,Deficient in numberous areas.
-processes to manage development,introduction and evaluation of changes to operations, Deficient.
-Management culture over-reliant on personal experience and did not place adequate emphisis on structured processes

These observations were only the tip of the iceberg.

Further changes were recommended in the following areas.
- operational training and procedures.
- Hazard identification.
- Risk assessment
- Change management
- Design of proceedures and training programs.
- Management decision making processes.

Have the Sky God management taken any of this to heart?
Will training to the bare minimum legal requirements prevent a similar accident from occuring?
Profitability before Safety before Schedule.
Modern day affordable Safety!

This might also explain why some JetStar Training Captains have been asking questions regarding the amounts of training set by JetStar management, the average standards resulting from this minimalist training, the pressures exerted to pass pilots, and the legal implications ,to them as the training captain, if any thing goes wrong in the future.

Can anyone now see why there is a need for pilots to band together and demand that the accountants now running airlines need to listen just a bit more to operationally experienced people and realise that there is a certain undeniable cost associated with running a business and that just because minimum requirements are met does not necessarily make for a good business decision.
Is AIPA's Professional standards Campaign such an abhorrence when seen in such light?

Last edited by max autobrakes; 17th Aug 2007 at 02:17.
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Old 13th Aug 2007, 01:48
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Ha! you're funny Max

To a number of other contributors and the whole indignation about standards. A simple question really, if JetStar can get away with less Sims ,cyclics and training as the Regulations and the Regulator allow them to ,why can't or won't Qantas!Surely there must be a huge cost imput to Qantas in being forced to train more.
then to try and justify BKK golf course:

The flight crew didn't use an adequate risk management stategy for the approach and landing, the error was primarily due to the absence of appropriate company procedures and training.
-Company-published information, Deficient.
-Procedures and training of crew ,Deficient in numberous areas.
So which is it Max, are the gods better trainied or not ??
Hope the insurers are'nt reading this.

BTW, speaking of old chestnuts, do you really believe QF do more checks per year than JQ, or are they just less sims more often ?
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Old 13th Aug 2007, 02:08
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You are not listening cunninglinguist.

The cutting in Qantas has been going on for years!
I never said Sky Gods are Sky Gods.
They are just pilots working for a company with a very long history and proud culture.
Do you really believe that Qantas would have survived as long as it has if the operational front line of the company adopted an attitude of near enough is good enough, excellence through indifference.

The justification of BKK is not mine, that quote was straight out of the ATSB report. So are the ATSB wrong in their summation?

Is more training than the bare statutory minimums more ,or less likely to mitigate accidents?

No one is immune from the risk of human error, even Sky Gods.
However extensive ,thorough, training will add more slices of cheese to the RISK MODEL. More slices of cheese means less risk, it does not mean NO risk, a big difference that you don't seem to quite grasp!
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