Move RAAF/SAF Pearce To Learmonth/Curtin...
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Wow, this thread still going, I thought it would have died a natural death by now. Anyone who thinks PEA will be gone in the near future, well sorry but your dreaming.
BUT, anyone in the RAAF that think there will not be changes coming, well your having the same nightmare.
Perth Airspace review in October. Acording to AsA "All options are bieng looked at". RAAF has been invited to the table, and told to expect some "Requests" for surendering some airspace. (Good luck)
A coridor or two have been muted as options, one through PEA from the North down toward 21 ILS. this may free up some of the traffic on the TASKER who come across from GEL and DONGA. This may take some pressure of the TASKA track, but won't fix the problem at aerodrome.
Old Bloggs is quite correct about the PH infrastructure, it cant handle the volume. All more airspace will do is create more space to put holding patterns.
But RAAF must understand that more airspace for PH is inevidable and that they will have to give up some. The numbers simply will overwhelme them.
RAAF alread crying poor and lots of talk about how under pressure 2FTS is already to pump out the product. Apparently the poor old QFI's can't even drive to work any more they are so fatuiged. There is talk of 2FTS flying on weekends, though I am not sure if this an issue of increase in over all flying hours or a strategy to fly with less instructors. maybee even a strategy to show how much they need ALL that airspace. AUSSIE27 has told us how the Yanks do it, surely the RAAF could come some way to the party.
One of the main issues at PH at the moment is training slot times, here the RAAF (DoD) must give consideration to alowing use of the NAVAID infrastructure and aerodromes to help relive the problem at PH. Sure RAAF needs to do maint. and other things, but wow you know all the other big busy aerodomes in Australia seem to be able to maintain thier infrastructure without closing for the weekends. RAAF Gingin Has a 2000m+ long 60m wide all weather runway which is (almost) NOT used from Friday to Monday (except RAAF flying club and some AAFC Cessnas and such). The PEA ILS and the blind ILS to the north of GIG are UNDERUTILISED, although I do hear that the owner of the paddock where the bilnd ILS is may not like the aircraft noise (good contract that one, hay).
BUT, anyone in the RAAF that think there will not be changes coming, well your having the same nightmare.
Perth Airspace review in October. Acording to AsA "All options are bieng looked at". RAAF has been invited to the table, and told to expect some "Requests" for surendering some airspace. (Good luck)
A coridor or two have been muted as options, one through PEA from the North down toward 21 ILS. this may free up some of the traffic on the TASKER who come across from GEL and DONGA. This may take some pressure of the TASKA track, but won't fix the problem at aerodrome.
Old Bloggs is quite correct about the PH infrastructure, it cant handle the volume. All more airspace will do is create more space to put holding patterns.
But RAAF must understand that more airspace for PH is inevidable and that they will have to give up some. The numbers simply will overwhelme them.
RAAF alread crying poor and lots of talk about how under pressure 2FTS is already to pump out the product. Apparently the poor old QFI's can't even drive to work any more they are so fatuiged. There is talk of 2FTS flying on weekends, though I am not sure if this an issue of increase in over all flying hours or a strategy to fly with less instructors. maybee even a strategy to show how much they need ALL that airspace. AUSSIE27 has told us how the Yanks do it, surely the RAAF could come some way to the party.
One of the main issues at PH at the moment is training slot times, here the RAAF (DoD) must give consideration to alowing use of the NAVAID infrastructure and aerodromes to help relive the problem at PH. Sure RAAF needs to do maint. and other things, but wow you know all the other big busy aerodomes in Australia seem to be able to maintain thier infrastructure without closing for the weekends. RAAF Gingin Has a 2000m+ long 60m wide all weather runway which is (almost) NOT used from Friday to Monday (except RAAF flying club and some AAFC Cessnas and such). The PEA ILS and the blind ILS to the north of GIG are UNDERUTILISED, although I do hear that the owner of the paddock where the bilnd ILS is may not like the aircraft noise (good contract that one, hay).
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Hey Green On,Go,
RAAF Base Tindal is 17kms from Katherine and 320kms by road south-east of Darwin in the Northern Territory. Although the airfield was constructed in 1942, it is the Air Force's youngest operational base (excepting bare bases) and one of Australia's most important defence installations.
Originally known as Carson's Airfield during World War II, over the years it has been upgraded and extended for commercial use. In 1984, the government decided to establish an operational Air Force base at Tindal. The physical security it enjoys is due to its long distance from the coast, making it unlikely it will be swept away by a cyclone. Tindal officially opened on 1 October 1988 and is now the home of
No 322 Combat Support Wing
No 75 Squadron
No 2 Control and Reporting Unit
No 1 Air Terminal Squadron Detachment Tindal
No 1 Combat Logistics Squadron and
No 44 Wing Detachment.
Last time I checked 75 was a Fighter Squadron!!!!
RAAF Base Tindal is 17kms from Katherine and 320kms by road south-east of Darwin in the Northern Territory. Although the airfield was constructed in 1942, it is the Air Force's youngest operational base (excepting bare bases) and one of Australia's most important defence installations.
Originally known as Carson's Airfield during World War II, over the years it has been upgraded and extended for commercial use. In 1984, the government decided to establish an operational Air Force base at Tindal. The physical security it enjoys is due to its long distance from the coast, making it unlikely it will be swept away by a cyclone. Tindal officially opened on 1 October 1988 and is now the home of
No 322 Combat Support Wing
No 75 Squadron
No 2 Control and Reporting Unit
No 1 Air Terminal Squadron Detachment Tindal
No 1 Combat Logistics Squadron and
No 44 Wing Detachment.
Last time I checked 75 was a Fighter Squadron!!!!
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Hawks might move to East Sale
Rumour has it that maybe, one day, 2FTS will be on the move to ESL!
you will OBEY orders
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I think we can show that for the benefit of the taxpayer we should move Perth international!
Move military from ramshackle facilities needing refurbishment (old buildings etc, RSAF facility not included) at YPEA to an existing military facility (eg runways and taxiways in place) that will need some new buildings. Or...
Move modern and constantly updated facilities (airport and freight terminals) at YPPH to an airport that hasn't been built yet and is currently sand and scrub lacking the transport links to the city.
with economics like that, you must be a member of the Liberal party(?).
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?????
There might be some yarpies over there who could help you move Perth airport.
But I'm not sure of the military beancounters. They are the ones who say it costs 3 million bucks to teach someone to fly a PC9.
But I'm not sure of the military beancounters. They are the ones who say it costs 3 million bucks to teach someone to fly a PC9.
AUSSIE27 has told us how the Yanks do it, surely the RAAF could come some way to the party.
As for sterile airspace, well its not exactly sterile, there's a good chance of hitting one of the other squadrons if you don't lookout/listenout. No requirement to throw civil aircraft into the mix for realism. Irrespective of that, in this unique environment, instructors still have the flexibility to self separate as required to get realistic training, probably unfeasible in a civil environment.
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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There might be some yarpies over there who could help you move Perth airport
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The RAAF isn't going to move one inch - and why should they? They've invested hundreds of millions in to Pearce. Tied in with HMAS Stirling and the submarine fleet, Pearce is a critical strategic base for access to the Indian Ocean and SE Asia.
What's required is greater radar coverage to the north-east of Perth so, allied with slot times, sequencing can begin earlier. Aircraft held up to 40 minutes the other day and the NOTAM calls for 15 minutes. This was due to the number of aircraft trying to get back to Perth at the same time.
Controllers are flat out getting aircraft identified, STARed, onto the correct transitions, sequenced, simultaneously keeping them procedurally separated from following traffic, then putting them into holding patterns, some of which aren't even on the just-cleared track.
There have been several serious incidents in Perth airspace over the past 6 months as the airspace and controllers - and probably the pilots - have reached the system's capacity.
What's required is greater radar coverage to the north-east of Perth so, allied with slot times, sequencing can begin earlier. Aircraft held up to 40 minutes the other day and the NOTAM calls for 15 minutes. This was due to the number of aircraft trying to get back to Perth at the same time.
Controllers are flat out getting aircraft identified, STARed, onto the correct transitions, sequenced, simultaneously keeping them procedurally separated from following traffic, then putting them into holding patterns, some of which aren't even on the just-cleared track.
There have been several serious incidents in Perth airspace over the past 6 months as the airspace and controllers - and probably the pilots - have reached the system's capacity.
Knackers, it's great to have someone who knows what they're talking about contribute to this thread.
Am I correct that there's buckleys chance of getting funds for a radar to the NE of Perth?
Will the accuracy and reliability of ADS-B allow the same improvements that a radar would provide?
Am I correct that there's buckleys chance of getting funds for a radar to the NE of Perth?
Will the accuracy and reliability of ADS-B allow the same improvements that a radar would provide?
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Going Boeing,
There is no chance of RADAR being installed in the Goldfields and Pilbara with ADS-B being considered... and yes, ADS-B is the answer to a substantial amount of the problem, provided that the original Low-Level Project for ADS-B installations is achieved (the maximum number of ADS-B installations that would ensure that we achieved complete surveillance coverage of WA down to very low levels).
This would ensure that ATC will see all of the aircraft in the inbound sequence as soon as they are established in the cruise with stable ground speeds that can be used to calculate accurate un-touched landing times at PH/PEA/JT, then sequenced landing times and finally, consistent speed control/waypoint crossing time requirements, and maybe even slot times for departure from the mines to avoid holding!
It'll save lives and save a hell of a lot of money for the industry... it's a win-win for everybody... except, for some reason, Dick Smith.
There is no chance of RADAR being installed in the Goldfields and Pilbara with ADS-B being considered... and yes, ADS-B is the answer to a substantial amount of the problem, provided that the original Low-Level Project for ADS-B installations is achieved (the maximum number of ADS-B installations that would ensure that we achieved complete surveillance coverage of WA down to very low levels).
This would ensure that ATC will see all of the aircraft in the inbound sequence as soon as they are established in the cruise with stable ground speeds that can be used to calculate accurate un-touched landing times at PH/PEA/JT, then sequenced landing times and finally, consistent speed control/waypoint crossing time requirements, and maybe even slot times for departure from the mines to avoid holding!
It'll save lives and save a hell of a lot of money for the industry... it's a win-win for everybody... except, for some reason, Dick Smith.
What sort of movements/hr are we talking about at Perth for it to be so congested that people have to hold for 15min let alone 40min????
That sounds ridiculous.
If radar coverage is out to 150nm+ at levels above 10K then even a turboprop doing 300KTAS is going to be on screen for 30min prior to the airport,right????
Surely the controllers can sequence on the STARS and with vectoring and speed control to get 10-15 aircraft in line on finals into Perth without too many problems.
Hell at LAX on any given night at any time ,esp during peak you can see 5-10 aircraft in trail coming down finals on the localizer with probably min reqd separation.
Most medium size US ports will have more traffic than Perth at any given time and a combo of slot times if necessary but mainly just good ATC practices regarding sequencing will get everyone in without any holding unless maybe extremely high traffic levels AND bad wx,eg CBs occur at the same time.
That sounds ridiculous.
If radar coverage is out to 150nm+ at levels above 10K then even a turboprop doing 300KTAS is going to be on screen for 30min prior to the airport,right????
Surely the controllers can sequence on the STARS and with vectoring and speed control to get 10-15 aircraft in line on finals into Perth without too many problems.
Hell at LAX on any given night at any time ,esp during peak you can see 5-10 aircraft in trail coming down finals on the localizer with probably min reqd separation.
Most medium size US ports will have more traffic than Perth at any given time and a combo of slot times if necessary but mainly just good ATC practices regarding sequencing will get everyone in without any holding unless maybe extremely high traffic levels AND bad wx,eg CBs occur at the same time.
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ATC could do that... but there's not enough room.
During the peak traffic sequences, the RAAF own a substantial amount of the airspace that ATC need to achieve the task. depending on the runway combination, the controllers have to move all of the airline and minesite traffic to an area between the 030 VOR radial and the 125 VOR radial, including the heavy jets inbound from the North-West.
They then have to segregate the faster jets from the slower turbo-props to achieve 3xtwo trails side-by-side so that the faster aircraft overtake the slower aircraft. Somewhere in between each of the inbound pairs of traffic flows they have to find room to achieve outbound flows of segregated jet and non-jet outbound trails of aircraft, to the North, North-East, East and South-East.
In doing so, at all times they have to have at least 5NM lateral spacing between all of the trails. If you were to draw all of the segregated trails that you personally thought would achieve the aim on a map, you'll very quickly realise that it's not possible to fit them all between the 030 VOR radial and the 125 VOR radial.... there-in lies the problem, a very, very serious problem.
During the peak traffic sequences, the RAAF own a substantial amount of the airspace that ATC need to achieve the task. depending on the runway combination, the controllers have to move all of the airline and minesite traffic to an area between the 030 VOR radial and the 125 VOR radial, including the heavy jets inbound from the North-West.
They then have to segregate the faster jets from the slower turbo-props to achieve 3xtwo trails side-by-side so that the faster aircraft overtake the slower aircraft. Somewhere in between each of the inbound pairs of traffic flows they have to find room to achieve outbound flows of segregated jet and non-jet outbound trails of aircraft, to the North, North-East, East and South-East.
In doing so, at all times they have to have at least 5NM lateral spacing between all of the trails. If you were to draw all of the segregated trails that you personally thought would achieve the aim on a map, you'll very quickly realise that it's not possible to fit them all between the 030 VOR radial and the 125 VOR radial.... there-in lies the problem, a very, very serious problem.
willadvise. thanks for the figures and the link for mcmillans site.I will read more closely when I have more time.
I only mentioned LAX as an example of high arrival and departure rates on any given single runway that ATC can achieve.
If Pearce airspace is preventing a smooth arrival routings from NW of the 030 radial then my earlier post in this thread re RAAF airspace being reduced per the US model mentioned MUST be implemented.
That means controllers and pilots must get together and demand CASA implement changes that are required using political and union pressure if necessary.
The military serve the Australian taxpayers NOT the other way around so the RAAF will have to come to the party and accept the changes and the fact this is not the 1950s-70s when air traffic volume was non existant by todays standard/volumes and they cannot expect to occupy such staggering amounts of airspace over/next to a major city and international airport that is ssoooo busy.
The LA basin has a huge # of airports,civil and military and because of the airspace layouts and sizes and ATC practices safely handle far higher traffic volumes with far less problems.
Obviously a new runway would be ideal as well but not likely in the immediate future.
CASA forces all sorts of changes and charges on industry when it suits them so lets see some action in this area within a short time frame measured in months not years for a change.
I understand ATC does its best under the difficult constraints imposed by this situation but it is obvious from Mcmillans site and the previous comments here that the airspace must be opened up and restructured before there is an aluminium shower in somebodies future. Too damn late then when there is a smoking crater and 2 wrecked aircraft and God knows how many lives lost.
I only mentioned LAX as an example of high arrival and departure rates on any given single runway that ATC can achieve.
If Pearce airspace is preventing a smooth arrival routings from NW of the 030 radial then my earlier post in this thread re RAAF airspace being reduced per the US model mentioned MUST be implemented.
That means controllers and pilots must get together and demand CASA implement changes that are required using political and union pressure if necessary.
The military serve the Australian taxpayers NOT the other way around so the RAAF will have to come to the party and accept the changes and the fact this is not the 1950s-70s when air traffic volume was non existant by todays standard/volumes and they cannot expect to occupy such staggering amounts of airspace over/next to a major city and international airport that is ssoooo busy.
The LA basin has a huge # of airports,civil and military and because of the airspace layouts and sizes and ATC practices safely handle far higher traffic volumes with far less problems.
Obviously a new runway would be ideal as well but not likely in the immediate future.
CASA forces all sorts of changes and charges on industry when it suits them so lets see some action in this area within a short time frame measured in months not years for a change.
I understand ATC does its best under the difficult constraints imposed by this situation but it is obvious from Mcmillans site and the previous comments here that the airspace must be opened up and restructured before there is an aluminium shower in somebodies future. Too damn late then when there is a smoking crater and 2 wrecked aircraft and God knows how many lives lost.
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aussie,
The nearly 40 minute holding during last week was due to single runway IMC conditions. Under these conditions the acceptance rate is every 3 minutes or 20 per hour. When you have 40 aircraft schedule to arrive within 60-90 minutes there are bound to be delays. When we run two runway VMC operations the acceptance rates go up to about 26 an hour which makes a huge difference.
The other factor for the delays is, and you can confirm this for me, but I would assume that there are not many Navajos and small turbo prop aircraft operating at LAX?
One of the quickest solutions to the problems at peak times will be to introduce slot times and word is that this will not be far away. This should afford some predictability as to how much traffic can be expected.
I don't believe moving Pearce will make a huge difference to the delays experienced during the peak times, but the forthcoming route review should ease ATC workload as segregated inbound trails will mean that the jets and turbo-prop aircraft will self separate.
Parallel runways - now there's an idea!
The nearly 40 minute holding during last week was due to single runway IMC conditions. Under these conditions the acceptance rate is every 3 minutes or 20 per hour. When you have 40 aircraft schedule to arrive within 60-90 minutes there are bound to be delays. When we run two runway VMC operations the acceptance rates go up to about 26 an hour which makes a huge difference.
The other factor for the delays is, and you can confirm this for me, but I would assume that there are not many Navajos and small turbo prop aircraft operating at LAX?
One of the quickest solutions to the problems at peak times will be to introduce slot times and word is that this will not be far away. This should afford some predictability as to how much traffic can be expected.
I don't believe moving Pearce will make a huge difference to the delays experienced during the peak times, but the forthcoming route review should ease ATC workload as segregated inbound trails will mean that the jets and turbo-prop aircraft will self separate.
Parallel runways - now there's an idea!
West atc,
FYI there are a lot of regional turboprps going into LAX, Mainly regional airline Brasilias and Do 328, Dash 8's etc some metro freighters.
Parallel runways???? EXACTLY, what a freakin concept !!!
The BIG catch is they MUST be spaced far enough apart to allow simultaneous parallel approaches with 2 acft side by side not staggered coming down the ILS,s in order to get MAX movements /hr.
This is where in my understanding SY parallels were not the big success everyone was hoping for because they are too close together and then diff separation stds apply.
SFO is the same and possibly each set of LAX's parallels as well.
Pearce airspace must be reduced and reclassified as I mentioned to allow more arrival routes straight in to RWY 20 at Perth.
FYI there are a lot of regional turboprps going into LAX, Mainly regional airline Brasilias and Do 328, Dash 8's etc some metro freighters.
Parallel runways???? EXACTLY, what a freakin concept !!!
The BIG catch is they MUST be spaced far enough apart to allow simultaneous parallel approaches with 2 acft side by side not staggered coming down the ILS,s in order to get MAX movements /hr.
This is where in my understanding SY parallels were not the big success everyone was hoping for because they are too close together and then diff separation stds apply.
SFO is the same and possibly each set of LAX's parallels as well.
Pearce airspace must be reduced and reclassified as I mentioned to allow more arrival routes straight in to RWY 20 at Perth.