VB ad today's Australian
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Dehavillanddriver - good research.
The pilots are not deserving, you are correct. This was not my direction of critism.
What is evident is the lack of industry research management has done. Bean counters such as Brett Godfrey and politicians such as Transport Minister Mark Vale (best friends) come in, reap benefits of companies such as Virgin Blue et al, and then after a 5-7 year period take their bonuses while leaving nothing for the workers.
There is and has been for several years a declining perception of the aviation industry as a highly skilled profession. While it doesn’t take a genius to operate an aircraft, it does take a great deal of training, patients, dedication and loyalty over many years to get to a level of professionalism suited for a job on an EMB, or an aircraft in this category of operation.
It is insulting the package on offer and for someone in my shoes, who could choose this path if I decided, I choose not to. I could commit to this and yes, then that step to another company.
However, I do not see this as beneficial when it comes to moving again, and with family considerations it is just not worth the hassle. While a training wage eases the difficulty of transitioning into a job like this one, the benefits for many of us in the industry are not completely obvious and so choose not to apply.
It is a profession; it should be respected as one.
The pilots are not deserving, you are correct. This was not my direction of critism.
What is evident is the lack of industry research management has done. Bean counters such as Brett Godfrey and politicians such as Transport Minister Mark Vale (best friends) come in, reap benefits of companies such as Virgin Blue et al, and then after a 5-7 year period take their bonuses while leaving nothing for the workers.
There is and has been for several years a declining perception of the aviation industry as a highly skilled profession. While it doesn’t take a genius to operate an aircraft, it does take a great deal of training, patients, dedication and loyalty over many years to get to a level of professionalism suited for a job on an EMB, or an aircraft in this category of operation.
It is insulting the package on offer and for someone in my shoes, who could choose this path if I decided, I choose not to. I could commit to this and yes, then that step to another company.
However, I do not see this as beneficial when it comes to moving again, and with family considerations it is just not worth the hassle. While a training wage eases the difficulty of transitioning into a job like this one, the benefits for many of us in the industry are not completely obvious and so choose not to apply.
It is a profession; it should be respected as one.
Why advertise?
Seems like they should have quite a few resumes on file without needing to advertise. Know many others who haven't had any communication and submitted info many months ago with updates.
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Agree with DNUTZ, I have been applying to VB since 2001 still never had any communication, nor interview. Talked with a couple of Rex boys last week in Sydney and told the same story. All of us have 7000 to 8000 hours of experience, 2 crew, training, turbo prop, bla bla bla but no jet time. What gives, why do they need to advertise overseas, "WHERE HERE" waiting. I am still having to apply overseas due to the lack of interest by the operators in Aus.
I suppose having too much time and in your late 30's doesn't meet the profile yet, even with the current pilot shortage.
But from what I hear, VB are losing as many as they are employing and still cannot figure out how they are going to crew there expanding airline.
Have a look at us bastards who are starting to go grey, were not planning to go anywhere, we have family's, commitments and sick to death of trying to get there first jet job. Oh and that thinking that it is harder to teach older, more experienced turbo prop pilots is crap you might find they could bring a wealth of experience, support and stability to your operation.
Battered Sav
I suppose having too much time and in your late 30's doesn't meet the profile yet, even with the current pilot shortage.
But from what I hear, VB are losing as many as they are employing and still cannot figure out how they are going to crew there expanding airline.
Have a look at us bastards who are starting to go grey, were not planning to go anywhere, we have family's, commitments and sick to death of trying to get there first jet job. Oh and that thinking that it is harder to teach older, more experienced turbo prop pilots is crap you might find they could bring a wealth of experience, support and stability to your operation.
Battered Sav
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Battered Sav
I have not read a truer more succinct post since I started ppruneing 11 years ago.
Its too bad that i had to go os for the illusive "jet job" and would love to be able to continue my career in my home country.
It is such a shame that short term management do not realize the value that some people can bring to an organization.
IHD
I have not read a truer more succinct post since I started ppruneing 11 years ago.
Its too bad that i had to go os for the illusive "jet job" and would love to be able to continue my career in my home country.
It is such a shame that short term management do not realize the value that some people can bring to an organization.
IHD
O'seas workers workers
The only way any Co can get imported labour is via the process dictated by federal Govnmnt, so the only way to stop this going ahead is to lobby your local federal member and rope in your union. All the pissing and moaning on here will do is re-affirm the belief that all pilots are good for is crying in their beer when the going get tough!
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They may have put the ad in to make people aware that there is now a new segment in the online application that covers the E Jet?
I think some of the 53% 'Yes' people are now thinking that a 'No' would have been a better option on the EBA vote.
I think some of the 53% 'Yes' people are now thinking that a 'No' would have been a better option on the EBA vote.
Megapixel
You didnt answer my question.
How much do you think the pay is for the EMB?
You say it is an insult - but what in particular is an insult? - the base salary? the work rules? Even the lowest rate of pay on the EMB as a First Officer is still well above the average pay for Australians.
Could it be better - absolutely. Is it worse than other operators of the E Jet in Australia? No - it is a better base salary and better overall package with better long term prospects - and those other operators do not offer moves onto the 737 and possibly the 777.
Do I think that it could be improved - yes I do - but I also take a longer term view - I look at what we were on when we joined Virgin and look at what we have today - despite all the rhetoric and bitterness about the recently voted on terms and conditions, things are without doubt better than they were, and there have been improvements with each agreement
It is relative,but I guess that is where you have the advantage - you can make a judgement about whether the package on offer is for you (and by your posts I assume you have) - the people that I get a bit annoyed about are the ones who join knowing what the deal is and then start whinging when they get there.
For those that think that Emirates is a better option - go for your life - but for me it isnt, the salary between Emirates and Oz is not all that much different in REAL terms - once you take into consideration direct and indirect taxes, the cost of living - including the cost of getting home on the odd occasion, the inflation rate and the fact that as a foreigner you have absolutely NO rights.
I have worked as an expat and like 99% of all other expats I spent a fair amount of my free time figuring out how to get home (and how to get back again).
The allure of a big shiny 777 or A330/340 is certainly attractive, and would be great fun for a few years - but thats the limit - after a few years you start looking at ways of getting home.
If you left a jet job in Oz to go there you are pretty much stuffed as you will be an expat for the rest of your working life.
so megapixel, if you have not been rejected and are just making a stand on "principle" I reckon it might be worth taking stock of what is important in life. If you have been unsuccessful - well sorry - it is unfortunate and very disappointing - been there done that - but there is life outside of VB, J* and QF - but in my books that life isnt worth considering unless there is no other option.
You didnt answer my question.
How much do you think the pay is for the EMB?
You say it is an insult - but what in particular is an insult? - the base salary? the work rules? Even the lowest rate of pay on the EMB as a First Officer is still well above the average pay for Australians.
Could it be better - absolutely. Is it worse than other operators of the E Jet in Australia? No - it is a better base salary and better overall package with better long term prospects - and those other operators do not offer moves onto the 737 and possibly the 777.
Do I think that it could be improved - yes I do - but I also take a longer term view - I look at what we were on when we joined Virgin and look at what we have today - despite all the rhetoric and bitterness about the recently voted on terms and conditions, things are without doubt better than they were, and there have been improvements with each agreement
It is relative,but I guess that is where you have the advantage - you can make a judgement about whether the package on offer is for you (and by your posts I assume you have) - the people that I get a bit annoyed about are the ones who join knowing what the deal is and then start whinging when they get there.
For those that think that Emirates is a better option - go for your life - but for me it isnt, the salary between Emirates and Oz is not all that much different in REAL terms - once you take into consideration direct and indirect taxes, the cost of living - including the cost of getting home on the odd occasion, the inflation rate and the fact that as a foreigner you have absolutely NO rights.
I have worked as an expat and like 99% of all other expats I spent a fair amount of my free time figuring out how to get home (and how to get back again).
The allure of a big shiny 777 or A330/340 is certainly attractive, and would be great fun for a few years - but thats the limit - after a few years you start looking at ways of getting home.
If you left a jet job in Oz to go there you are pretty much stuffed as you will be an expat for the rest of your working life.
so megapixel, if you have not been rejected and are just making a stand on "principle" I reckon it might be worth taking stock of what is important in life. If you have been unsuccessful - well sorry - it is unfortunate and very disappointing - been there done that - but there is life outside of VB, J* and QF - but in my books that life isnt worth considering unless there is no other option.
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BATTERED SAV,
Up until recently, Virgin very much relied on personal references. The interview process was not much more than a quick chat to confirm that you didn't have D**KHEAD stamped on your forehead (did not always work IMO
).Given the large number of pilots required, this selection method could not last forever and a more objective process is now in place.
As for the right candidate "profile", I can tell you that we have FO's who were in their early 20's to guy's in their 50's when they were employed without jet time (obviously with total hours commensurate with age).
The pilot market has changed such that Virgin will be forced to look at as many candidates as it can attract given the competition in the marketplace for FO's.
Best of luck getting the job you want.
WW
Up until recently, Virgin very much relied on personal references. The interview process was not much more than a quick chat to confirm that you didn't have D**KHEAD stamped on your forehead (did not always work IMO
).Given the large number of pilots required, this selection method could not last forever and a more objective process is now in place. As for the right candidate "profile", I can tell you that we have FO's who were in their early 20's to guy's in their 50's when they were employed without jet time (obviously with total hours commensurate with age).
The pilot market has changed such that Virgin will be forced to look at as many candidates as it can attract given the competition in the marketplace for FO's.
Best of luck getting the job you want.
WW
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Personal recommendations or "Blue-staring" makes a big difference in getting your name on the interview list. As for people leaving and not getting enough to cover them, 12 have left in the last three months (including the ones going to Emirates currently) and over 50 have started most with prior Jet time. Oldest pilot recruited Extremely close to 60 and youngest early 20s. Sitting back moaning that no one ever looks at me doesn't really seem to me to suggest being proactive about things. Get your resume in front of someone that counts and do some marketing. From what I have been told the Job Ad on Friday is to rejuvenate the Database and to inform Expats that recruitment is going on. Quite a few from Europe have been interviewed for FO slots and the Ad will let others Know that there is a chance if they want it. As for directing it at foriegn pilots from memory it had the " must have right to work in Australia" as part of the requirements. Good Luck in securing a position.
This is not gospel, however from what I hear, it is pretty close.
Embraer FO first year pay around $74408 minus $30000 (endorsement cost) equals $44408 + O/N allowances.
Let me explain.
Virgin will INITIALLY pay for the Embraer endorsement (don't worry you will pay it back) and pay you a reduced training salary (amount yet to be resolved and conveniently wasn't addressed in the EBA) salary whilst you are training.
After you are checked to line, your "Salary" will still be a "reduced salary" which deducts the cost of the Embraer Training ($30,000) from your first year gross pay.
Frozen on Embraer for a period of 30 months from the date you are cleared to line.
After all this you are still on a 6 month probation.
After 12 months, when you have repaid the cost of your endorsement, you go onto Normal FO salary $74408
You would think this may yet bite them because, if someone has the choice b/w an Airbus with Jetstar or an E-Jet with VB, then Jetstar looks to be a better option.
Embraer FO first year pay around $74408 minus $30000 (endorsement cost) equals $44408 + O/N allowances.
Let me explain.
Virgin will INITIALLY pay for the Embraer endorsement (don't worry you will pay it back) and pay you a reduced training salary (amount yet to be resolved and conveniently wasn't addressed in the EBA) salary whilst you are training.
After you are checked to line, your "Salary" will still be a "reduced salary" which deducts the cost of the Embraer Training ($30,000) from your first year gross pay.
Frozen on Embraer for a period of 30 months from the date you are cleared to line.
After all this you are still on a 6 month probation.
After 12 months, when you have repaid the cost of your endorsement, you go onto Normal FO salary $74408
You would think this may yet bite them because, if someone has the choice b/w an Airbus with Jetstar or an E-Jet with VB, then Jetstar looks to be a better option.
Last edited by Blue Ruin; 5th Aug 2007 at 13:11.
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"Any one know where the Regional Embraer bases are likely to be??"
Brisbane, Melbourne and.. you guessed it, Sydney.
Long term, if a mining company or two like it, Perth is a possibility.
Brisbane, Melbourne and.. you guessed it, Sydney.
Long term, if a mining company or two like it, Perth is a possibility.
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Application Form
Hey Guys and Girls.
I've just been looking over the application form and have a few questions. Would really appreciate any help.
1. Total Flying Time - Instrument
(Is this total instrument time that has being logged (i.e. Actual + Simulated) or is it flying time on an instrument flight plan (i.e. under IF rules).
2. Aircraft Type Ratings. What aircraft type rating do you hold?
If I answered No to the question regarding type ratings on Virgin aircraft, what do I need to put in here? (It won't let me move on until I have entered something in the box).
Thanks for any help.
D_W_C
I've just been looking over the application form and have a few questions. Would really appreciate any help.
1. Total Flying Time - Instrument
(Is this total instrument time that has being logged (i.e. Actual + Simulated) or is it flying time on an instrument flight plan (i.e. under IF rules).
2. Aircraft Type Ratings. What aircraft type rating do you hold?
If I answered No to the question regarding type ratings on Virgin aircraft, what do I need to put in here? (It won't let me move on until I have entered something in the box).
Thanks for any help.
D_W_C
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Looks like the Eastern Pilots will get career progression after all, only not in Qantas. 
Wouldn't a Group Opportunity List go some way towards stemming the 25% attrition rate?
Wouldn't a Group Opportunity List go some way towards stemming the 25% attrition rate?
Training wage?
Can anyone confirm or deny if you receive a training salary whilst you are undertaking your endorsement (either 73 with Alteon or overseas for Embraer). I only ask this, cause for those of us with families, mortages etc....a month/6 weeks without any pay coming in + having to pay for your own accom and food etc.......well its a big ask!
Cheers
DM
Cheers
DM