Eagle Gear up Emergency Landing in WB
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phillipas
Every landing involves calculated risk. Aviation is all about risk management. In this instance, the risk of injury was very low, and was just one of the factors taken into account in the decision making process. In this case, over-focussing on covering medical requirements in the unlikely event, may well have undermined the very mitigation of the risk of injury in the first place (ie. less suitable aerodrome).
Gear up landings are not unheard of. When managed properly, and without other complicating factors, they are not usually that dangerous (based on results).
Every landing involves calculated risk. Aviation is all about risk management. In this instance, the risk of injury was very low, and was just one of the factors taken into account in the decision making process. In this case, over-focussing on covering medical requirements in the unlikely event, may well have undermined the very mitigation of the risk of injury in the first place (ie. less suitable aerodrome).
Gear up landings are not unheard of. When managed properly, and without other complicating factors, they are not usually that dangerous (based on results).
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kiwiblue...
Nothing simplistic about my question at all.It requires a straight forward yes or no....
sir.pratt....I was on one of the first SP's into Wellington and it lived up to it's nickname with ease.
If you can land a SP in weather that sucked then a small twin should really not be a problem.
This was not my point however as Blenheim may well have been the best choice.
Which field was closer when the pilots realised they had a problem?
What was the weather like in Wellington at the time?
Perhaps the airline wanted to minimise media attention by landing at Blenheim? ...
Didn't work though but nah airlines would never think of that ...
My point was the indignation of some pilots at a doctor telling them what he thought.Thats fine as he was looking at it from a medical view point.
The part that made me laugh was these same pilots telling us that Blenheim was suitable and could handle any medical eventuality.
I imagine that the doctors would like the right of response at pilots telling them about medical capabilities.
Actually I have a mate that is have an MRI next week.I might tell him to save some money and get a pilot to give him an opinion.
There is no point talking about what happened after the safe and luckily uneventfull landing.The doctor was talking about what would have happened if it was the other way around from a medical view point.
As someone else said..
If you want tax advice see an accountant
If you want to find out about flying ask a pilot
If you want to talk about medical matters ask a doctor..not someone flying you to your destination
Nothing simplistic about my question at all.It requires a straight forward yes or no....
sir.pratt....I was on one of the first SP's into Wellington and it lived up to it's nickname with ease.
If you can land a SP in weather that sucked then a small twin should really not be a problem.
This was not my point however as Blenheim may well have been the best choice.
Which field was closer when the pilots realised they had a problem?
What was the weather like in Wellington at the time?
Perhaps the airline wanted to minimise media attention by landing at Blenheim? ...
Didn't work though but nah airlines would never think of that ...
My point was the indignation of some pilots at a doctor telling them what he thought.Thats fine as he was looking at it from a medical view point.
The part that made me laugh was these same pilots telling us that Blenheim was suitable and could handle any medical eventuality.
I imagine that the doctors would like the right of response at pilots telling them about medical capabilities.
Actually I have a mate that is have an MRI next week.I might tell him to save some money and get a pilot to give him an opinion.
There is no point talking about what happened after the safe and luckily uneventfull landing.The doctor was talking about what would have happened if it was the other way around from a medical view point.
As someone else said..
If you want tax advice see an accountant
If you want to find out about flying ask a pilot
If you want to talk about medical matters ask a doctor..not someone flying you to your destination
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There is no point talking about what happened after the safe and luckily uneventfull landing.
It's not the doctor's comments regarding the medical capacity of Blenheim that are unfounded, but the lack of understanding that caused him to make them. Next we'll be avoiding landings at small towns, in marginal weather because the local medical facilities will be unable to cope if it all goes horribly wrong.
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cloudcutter..is this an English tutorial or a debate.
"Gear up landings are not unheard of. When managed properly, and without other complicating factors, they are not usually that dangerous (based on results)"
Now we have statistics and other complicating factors and even if you don't like to admit it, luck.
However,when it comes to injuries these are all meaningless.If you are injured you need fast and available medical attention not a risk analysis.
If ego's are taken out of the equation then accidents will be minimised. However, when you have people telling us that it all went swimmingly AFTER the event and telling doctors to buzz off it appears those ego's are still in play.
"Gear up landings are not unheard of. When managed properly, and without other complicating factors, they are not usually that dangerous (based on results)"
Now we have statistics and other complicating factors and even if you don't like to admit it, luck.
However,when it comes to injuries these are all meaningless.If you are injured you need fast and available medical attention not a risk analysis.
If ego's are taken out of the equation then accidents will be minimised. However, when you have people telling us that it all went swimmingly AFTER the event and telling doctors to buzz off it appears those ego's are still in play.
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Sorry, I wasn't commenting on you grammer, just refering to the term 'luckily'.
I just don't think the risk of injury was high enough to warrent all this discussion about medical services. It's not as relevant as some of the other factors involved, and some people are placing far too much weight on it.
The only ego I can see at play here, is the good doctor's. He has made a loaded comment, well outside the bounds of his expertese. I personally have nothing to gain either way, so would consider myself impartial. This is a debate, and these are my opinions.
I just don't think the risk of injury was high enough to warrent all this discussion about medical services. It's not as relevant as some of the other factors involved, and some people are placing far too much weight on it.
The only ego I can see at play here, is the good doctor's. He has made a loaded comment, well outside the bounds of his expertese. I personally have nothing to gain either way, so would consider myself impartial. This is a debate, and these are my opinions.
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Originally Posted by lowerlobe
Nothing simplistic about my question at all.It requires a straight forward yes or no....
Originally Posted by Cloud Cutter
It's not the doctor's comments regarding the medical capacity of Blenheim that are unfounded, but the lack of understanding that caused him to make them. Next we'll be avoiding landings at small towns, in marginal weather because the local medical facilities will be unable to cope if it all goes horribly wrong.
Originally Posted by lowerlobe
If ego's are taken out of the equation then accidents will be minimised. However, when you have people telling us that it all went swimmingly AFTER the event and telling doctors to buzz off it appears those ego's are still in play.
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So your telling me that the doctors comments were just a ploy to get better medical facilities in Blenheim......
Yeah OK Doctor
Ohh hang on I've got a stitch from laughing so hard....
Yeah OK Doctor
Ohh hang on I've got a stitch from laughing so hard....
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lowerlobe: you are a fool. I trust those few words are sufficiently short that you can understand them without misinterpretation or misrepresentation?
Nowhere have I suggested any such thing, other than the medical profession in NZ are particularly adept at manipulating public opinion via the media to suit whatever political end is their current 'flavour of the month'.
May I suggest that stitch go in your lip?
Nowhere have I suggested any such thing, other than the medical profession in NZ are particularly adept at manipulating public opinion via the media to suit whatever political end is their current 'flavour of the month'.
May I suggest that stitch go in your lip?
Last edited by kiwiblue; 22nd Jun 2007 at 09:40.
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This post seems to be going around in circles. Sure the medical facilities at WB aren't great but given the choice WB was the winner easy on that day.
I went over WB & Welly a couple of hours later & WB didnt have a cloud in the sky and hardly any wind.
Welly on the other hand was a typical Wellington day, I dont remember the wind off the top of my head but the cloud was certainly down enough to make you do at least the ILS.
Surely as profession pilots we know that as some of you other guys have said is certainly abnormal but by landing at woodbourne they certainly minimmized the risk than landing at Wellington that day.
Now if it had actually been a nice day at wellys, it could of been the better option. But I certainly would of done the same as the lads did with the weather conditions around that day as goign to wellington would of increased the risk alot more. But also another option that no one has mentioned, that I would certainly consider above wellington is Palmy. They have good hospitals and the runway is good aswell. Its just nomally the weather there is worse than wellington.
I went over WB & Welly a couple of hours later & WB didnt have a cloud in the sky and hardly any wind.
Welly on the other hand was a typical Wellington day, I dont remember the wind off the top of my head but the cloud was certainly down enough to make you do at least the ILS.
Surely as profession pilots we know that as some of you other guys have said is certainly abnormal but by landing at woodbourne they certainly minimmized the risk than landing at Wellington that day.
Now if it had actually been a nice day at wellys, it could of been the better option. But I certainly would of done the same as the lads did with the weather conditions around that day as goign to wellington would of increased the risk alot more. But also another option that no one has mentioned, that I would certainly consider above wellington is Palmy. They have good hospitals and the runway is good aswell. Its just nomally the weather there is worse than wellington.
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Interesting stuff for sure...and as brofessional pilots,we are required to take all factors into account and that men would also include the opinions of the medical profession....they do not have Capts Authority but their opinions are valid input...whether you agree with them of not...
There is no reason for us not to listen to any of this....if in fact this situaton had turned to custard we would now be debating its very merits....the way in which it was presented(medical comments) has most of us thumbing our noses up at these jokers......it actually in the long run,I believe is a valid concern when "we" divert or go into an airport under emergency authority....is this landing going to be a "precautionary" ldg...where the outcome has minor consequences or is it an "emergency" ldg where the outcome is unknown.
Anytime Ive have an emergency its either one of the other....obviously...but in saying that....all factors must be considered and assesd unless time is of the essence and the bitch has to be put down now!!!
When diverting due to medical/other emergencies....one does not land at the nearest airport,you land at the most suitable airport....one that enhances your chances of a favourable outcome.....this, I believe in this situation was why the decision was made..... PB
There is no reason for us not to listen to any of this....if in fact this situaton had turned to custard we would now be debating its very merits....the way in which it was presented(medical comments) has most of us thumbing our noses up at these jokers......it actually in the long run,I believe is a valid concern when "we" divert or go into an airport under emergency authority....is this landing going to be a "precautionary" ldg...where the outcome has minor consequences or is it an "emergency" ldg where the outcome is unknown.
Anytime Ive have an emergency its either one of the other....obviously...but in saying that....all factors must be considered and assesd unless time is of the essence and the bitch has to be put down now!!!
When diverting due to medical/other emergencies....one does not land at the nearest airport,you land at the most suitable airport....one that enhances your chances of a favourable outcome.....this, I believe in this situation was why the decision was made..... PB
Not sure if this was covered as the thread is so long.the 1900's gear has 3 lines to each leg, 2 down 1 up, the 2nd downline is attached to the manual pump. the standard procedure for gear up is if NLG is unlocked land gear down if one MLG is unlocked land gear up to avoid digging in a wing. The gear is held in the up position by hydraulic pressure augmented with the accumulator. Landing gear is held in the down position by overcentre on the leg braces, and internal locking pins in the actuators. Motor shutoff occurs in the gear up position by a pressure switch that actuates @ approx 2775, and will cycle on at approx 2320, and in the down position by all 3 downlock mechanisms in series switches off the motor the gear motor will run until all gear are down/locked or by a 16 sec timer. Gear indication come from downlock mechanism/wheelwell switches and overcenter switches on the drag braces. If I missed anything please feel free to point it out. Flightsafety manual pg 15-4 1994 edition
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Can't understand the continued debate - it's a no-brainer. The crew did exactly the right thing, probably in consulation with plenty of other people. There are more than enough medical facilities in and around Woodbourne to handle the small number of people at risk, and other hospitals within easy flying distance. I'm sure the airfield would have been on full alert with more than enough resources standing by.
So many people are hell-bent on turning a drama into a crisis. It's like those who think that bits of prop might have penetrated the cabin... complete nonsense. With the engine at near enough to flight idle, the prop blades were always going to be going mostly backwards - the PT6 is a free turbine and so not nearly enough inertia to put a blade through the fuselage, especially a composite blade at idle.
As for the reasons to not choose Wellington, the only logical one is that it would have closed the airport for some time, quite unnecessarily. And maybe the possibility of more turbulence. The idea that the 1900 might somehow have either gone off the end of the runway, or so far off the side that it would have been anywhere near the airport fence, is far-fetched in the extreme...
Does that mean we can't comment on your spelling...? Damn... 
So many people are hell-bent on turning a drama into a crisis. It's like those who think that bits of prop might have penetrated the cabin... complete nonsense. With the engine at near enough to flight idle, the prop blades were always going to be going mostly backwards - the PT6 is a free turbine and so not nearly enough inertia to put a blade through the fuselage, especially a composite blade at idle.
As for the reasons to not choose Wellington, the only logical one is that it would have closed the airport for some time, quite unnecessarily. And maybe the possibility of more turbulence. The idea that the 1900 might somehow have either gone off the end of the runway, or so far off the side that it would have been anywhere near the airport fence, is far-fetched in the extreme...
Sorry, I wasn't commenting on you grammer
180 kias as you will lose control/indications.
Flightsafety diagram 15-19 the only "shuttle valve" that can be seen is the hand pump dump valve. this opens with the first couple pumps with the emergency extension handle, allowing fluid trapped in the uplines to vent back to the power pack. the hand pump then pressurizes the emergency downlines. Oh the slower you are during emergency extension the easier it is to extend the nosegear
Will have to paraphrase the book but
1. reduce speed to 180 kts or less
2. pull landing gear motor relay cb
3. gear handle down
4. pump approx 80-100 strokes until gear indicates 3 green
* if gear will not lock down, pump until additional resistance is felt, do not stow handle, on final/landing continue pumping till pressure felt and down locks can be installed
That said I think we're both on the right track and though we both speak the queen's own, we may not speak the same language. I maybe wrong I've only got 6K on the bird
Flightsafety diagram 15-19 the only "shuttle valve" that can be seen is the hand pump dump valve. this opens with the first couple pumps with the emergency extension handle, allowing fluid trapped in the uplines to vent back to the power pack. the hand pump then pressurizes the emergency downlines. Oh the slower you are during emergency extension the easier it is to extend the nosegear
Will have to paraphrase the book but
1. reduce speed to 180 kts or less
2. pull landing gear motor relay cb
3. gear handle down
4. pump approx 80-100 strokes until gear indicates 3 green
* if gear will not lock down, pump until additional resistance is felt, do not stow handle, on final/landing continue pumping till pressure felt and down locks can be installed
That said I think we're both on the right track and though we both speak the queen's own, we may not speak the same language. I maybe wrong I've only got 6K on the bird
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the only thing missed was the presence of a shuttle valve in the manual extension line, which needs one pump of the handle to overcome.
Unfortunately the Pax seat on the other side of that dent is a write-off. They will never get the smell out of it.
my turn to call b-ll****. Don't know the FTL's in NZ but pretty sure even at 1200/yr that's more than 2 years. BTW welcome to Canada where 1000 hrs get's you a right seat caravan. Pilot shortage my arse. I guess from what you say the reservoir was cracked below the standpipe? Nice!!! Any Pix of the Damage can we expect an AD/SB
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my turn to call b-ll****
BTW he is right about the sometimes simplistic nature of pilot training notes. You can only understand how a system really works if you examine the maintenance manual system diagrams...
I always used to borrow a copy of the parts manual if I really wanted some in-depth info. Engineers are always throwing them away as updates arrive (usually on CD these days). you just need a copy of the reading software (such as Sapphire). Can be quite enlightening.